European Union (Withdrawal Arrangements) Bill

Debate between Fleur Anderson and Jim Shannon

2nd reading
Friday 6th December 2024 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Fleur Anderson)]

Let me begin by expressing thanks to all those who have contributed to this debate so far—I am sure that there will be many more after me—and to the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister). He has set out his view to the House with the same ardour as he did a fortnight ago, although at greater length than he was allowed to in Westminster Hall, and he made his case during his time in Stormont as well.

It is important to restate to him what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland said to this House a fortnight ago, which is that the Government want Northern Ireland to prosper and flourish as an important part of the Union. On that, many of us will find agreement. We are here to do what is best for the people of Northern Ireland. I also reiterate the Government’s commitment to both the Windsor framework and to the UK internal market. It was on that point that the Secretary of State respectfully disagreed with the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim in this House a fortnight ago.

I will set out the Government’s objection to this Bill, which is not compatible with international law, does not account for Northern Ireland’s unique circumstances, and would take away powers that are given to the Northern Ireland Assembly to make decisions about Northern Ireland. It would result in a regulatory black hole that would be very bad for businesses, jobs, growth, the Northern Ireland economy and the rest of the United Kingdom.

I will start by outlining some of the good news for the Northern Ireland economy—news that shows what the Windsor framework, the prospect of stability, the Executive returning, and the stability of a new Labour Government are doing for the economic outlook in Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland composite economic index indicates that economic output increased by 0.4% over the quarter to June 2024 and by 2.3% over the year. Ulster University’s economic policy centre shows that Northern Ireland has a forecasted growth rate of 1.4% in 2024 and 1.7% in 2025. The region’s economy is performing better than was expected at the start of the year. This has been driven by strong growth in employment, particularly in the transport, construction and health sectors.

The Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency’s interdepartmental business register shows that the number of businesses registered for VAT or pay-as-you-earn operating in Northern Ireland in 2022 is estimated to have risen by 1,550 since 2021 to 77,640, and is continuing to increase. I could go on and on; I have a longer list of the good news stories for Northern Ireland. The economy is working, but all the businesses I speak to talk about the need for stability, and the underlying premise of this Bill would change that stability. We would go into uncertainty and chaos, which would not be good for the Northern Ireland economy.

[Jim Shannon]

Honestly and sincerely, each one of us on the Unionist Benches who has concerns has presented examples of where things are not working, and the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister) introduced the Bill to address those issues. I gave two examples of businesses, and I could give many more if you, Madam Deputy Speaker, were to let me, but I know that you will not. The Minister might say that what has been done is positive, but for us there is not positivity. Constituents with businesses have told me that they will no longer be able to trade, to have a business, or to provide employment and pay wages, and that has to be addressed. Those are the issues that we are raising, Minister. Tell us what will happen.

[Fleur Anderson]

I listened carefully to the examples that the hon. Gentleman gave on behalf of his constituents. They are concerning, and we need to listen to them carefully. I absolutely understand the concerns raised by other Members in this debate as well. It is useful to have this debate, so that we can talk about those issues, but without the Windsor framework, there would be no framework from within which to negotiate changes. Many changes have been made since the establishment of the Windsor framework, and that shows that it can flex, allow negotiation, and allow for practices and schemes, such as the internal market scheme, that enable the smooth flow of trade. That is the benefit of having the Windsor framework, rather than ditching it.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Fleur Anderson and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 27th November 2024 Commons Chamber

[Fleur Anderson]

I am very supportive of the Executive’s strategic framework to tackle violence against women and girls. I am in constant dialogue with organisations such as White Ribbon NI to learn and share best practice. That is how we are going to achieve this—in partnership with the Executive. The Government are committed to tackling online abuse and violence against women and girls with the Online Safety Act 2023 and further work we will be doing on this matter.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Last year in Northern Ireland, six women were murdered by men. All the men have been arrested, and their cases are pending. Last year, some 800 women and children stayed in a Women’s Aid refuge, and 10 babies were born in a refuge. There is an epidemic of violence against women in Northern Ireland. What can the Minister do in discussions with the Northern Ireland Assembly to make that better?

[Fleur Anderson]

I pay tribute to all the Women’s Aid organisations across Northern Ireland, which do absolutely fantastic work. It is about prevention and provision of services. Tackling online abuse and violence against women and girls wherever we see it—by everyone in this House and across the UK—is the only way that we will change this situation.

Police Funding

Debate between Fleur Anderson and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 5th November 2024 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Fleur Anderson)]

It is a great pleasure to respond to this debate and serve under your chairship, Sir Roger. I congratulate the hon. Member for North Down (Alex Easton) on securing this Westminster Hall debate—hopefully the first of many—on such an important and timely topic. I welcome comments made by my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Luke Myer), the hon. and learned Member for North Antrim (Jim Allister), the shadow Minister the hon. Member for Hamble Valley (Paul Holmes), and the hon. Members for Upper Bann (Carla Lockhart), for South Antrim (Robin Swann) and for Wokingham (Clive Jones).

It is important to be talking about safety—safety on our streets and in our homes, workplaces and schools. Wherever we are, everyone deserves to feel safe, and that is vital. Equality of safety goes alongside all the other equalities that we want to see. This Government are supporting frontline policing levels across the country, putting us on track to start to deliver on the pledge to boost visible neighbourhood policing. It is a key mission of this Labour Government to take back our streets and have safer streets. That is also a key mission in the Northern Ireland Executive’s draft programme for government, and we can agree on that whatever party we represent.

I pay tribute to the brave men and women who serve in the PSNI and work tirelessly to keep the people of Northern Ireland safe. The commitment and bravery of the PSNI is shown every day; however, two examples vividly demonstrate its commitment and dedication. The terrible attack on Detective Chief Inspector John Caldwell last year reminded us that there is still a small minority in Northern Ireland who wish to cause harm to those who serve. More recently, officers sustained serious injuries while ensuring the safety of others during the violent disorder this summer.

In early August, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and I met with PSNI and Northern Ireland Fire & Rescue Service members in Belfast during that week of protest to offer our thanks in person. We heard many stories of bravery. The Prime Minister also met injured PSNI officers. It was clear to us all that the response of PSNI to the disorder was a testament to their dedication and ability to deliver safety and security in Northern Ireland. We owe all those who serve in the PSNI our gratitude. The Government will continue to work alongside the Northern Ireland Executive to support the PSNI. In response to the shadow Minister’s question, we will continue to have conversations with the Chief Constable and other members of the PSNI as a matter of course.

In recognition of the unique security situation in Northern Ireland, the UK Government make additional contributions to the PSNI through additional security funding, as has been mentioned. As we announced in the spending review last week, we have increased that funding for the PSNI for the financial year 2025-26. It will be provided with £37.8 million in additional security funding. It was previously provided with £32 million a year, and that amount had been in place since 2015-16. The increased funding that this Government have provided will give the PSNI the resources it needs to tackle the threat posed by Northern Ireland-related terrorism in Northern Ireland and allow it to continue to keep people safe.

The Government recognise the difficult financial position that the PSNI faces. However, policing is largely a devolved matter in Northern Ireland, and the PSNI’s main budget is allocated by the Northern Ireland Department of Justice.

[Jim Shannon]

The hon. Member for North Down (Alex Easton) and I had a particularly difficult time about a year and a half ago. There were special circumstances—paramilitaries were feuding—so funding for our area had to be above and beyond. The police service was able to give officers more overtime, but it was only able to do so because it had the resources. Without the extra resources and extra money that was provided due to the special circumstances, the police would be unable to police.

[Fleur Anderson]

The need for more funding is understood, which is why I was glad that more money was delivered to Northern Ireland in last week’s Budget. It was good news for Northern Ireland. The Budget delivered a record £18.2 billion for the Northern Ireland Executive for 2025-26—the largest settlement in real terms in the history of devolution. That includes a £1.5 billion top-up through Barnett consequentials for 2025-26: £1.2 billion for day-to-day spending and £270 million for capital investment. What will be done with that money? It is for the Executive to set a budget for all Northern Ireland Departments and for the Department of Justice to allocate funding to the PSNI. How that funding is used is an operational matter for the PSNI and the Chief Constable.

The PSNI estate—police stations—was raised by the hon. Member for North Down. The allocation of that money and questions of whether police stations are open or not are entirely operational matters for the Chief Constable, who is accountable to the Northern Ireland Policing Board.

Paramilitarism has been mentioned. The effort to tackle paramilitarism is led by the Northern Ireland Executive’s “Tackling Paramilitary Activity, Criminality and Organised Crime” programme, which was established after the “Fresh Start” agreement. The programme is working to tackle the presence of paramilitaries through evidence-based early interventions, targeted law enforcement measures and initiatives that provide direct support to help build safer communities who are resilient to paramilitarism. The UK Government provide 50% of the funding—£8 million a year—for the cross-Executive programme for tackling paramilitary activity and organised crime. As was announced in the spending review, that has been secured through to March 2026.

One strand of this work is the Paramilitary Crime Task Force, the PCTF, which is a multi-agency taskforce including officers from the PSNI, the National Crime Agency and His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. Over the period from April 2023 to March 2024, the PCTF made 107 disruptions and 83 arrests, charged and reported 115 people and conducted 175 searches. The PCTF seized drugs with a street value of more than £1.3 million and illicit tobacco with a street value of more than £2.8 million, along with 41 firearms and weapons, of which eight were explosive devices.

The Executive programme for tackling paramilitary activity and organised crime has provided PSNI with £5.6 million in 2023-24, and the same for 2024-25. PSNI police numbers have been raised several times—rightly so. A well-staffed and resourced PSNI is vital to the success and stability of Northern Ireland. I am aware that the PSNI restarted recruitment earlier this year, and that the Chief Constable has been speaking to the Department of Justice to discuss funding to allow that to continue. Recruitment and retention are absolutely vital to delivering effective policing. Policing in Northern Ireland, apart from national security, is a devolved matter, and police numbers are a matter for the Department of Justice and the Chief Constable. As of 1 October 2024, PSNI has 6,303 full-time officers. I am aware that the Chief Constable aims to lift officer numbers to 7,000 within three years. That will be challenging, but I understand that he is speaking to the Department of Justice about it and we will continue to support him.

The hon. Member for North Down will be aware of the Executive’s draft programme for government, which was published in September. I note the programme’s recognition that PSNI officer numbers are low, and welcome the Executive’s commitment to grow police officer numbers to 7,500 in line with New Decade, New Approach. As I have said, last week’s Budget delivered the largest settlement in real terms in the history of devolution, including that £1.5 billion top-up through the Barnett consequentials. The money is not ringfenced, and the Northern Ireland Department of Finance will work with Executive Departments to allocate it based on budget pressures.

I welcome the fact that the data breach was raised by the right hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson). In response to the August 2023 PSNI data breach, the PSNI worked closely with the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland to fully understand the cost implications of its response to the very serious incident. The UK Government granted an initial, non-repayable reserve claim of £15 million after the data breach. That was communicated to the Department of Finance and intended to assist in addressing the challenges to the PSNI budget caused by the data breach. In February 2024, however, the Department of Finance confirmed that the funding was not required and PSNI costs could be absorbed within the NI budget. No additional funding was required from the UK Government, but we continue to work together in ways like that to ensure that policing can continue.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Fleur Anderson and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 23rd October 2024 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

1. Whether he has had discussions with the Northern Ireland Executive on recent trends in energy costs in Northern Ireland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Fleur Anderson)]

Although energy costs have come down, they remain too high. Our priority is to ensure access to energy is affordable and secure for consumers. That is why this Government have established Great British Energy, which will operate across the whole UK, including Northern Ireland. The Department for Energy Security and Net Zero and the Northern Ireland Department for the Economy are working together positively on the GB Energy Bill.

[Jim Shannon]

It is a pleasure to see the Minister in her place and I wish her well; we have been friends for some time. She will be aware of Northern Ireland’s unique energy profile: we are more heavily dependent and reliant on oil than other nations in the United Kingdom, with some 68% of people in Northern Ireland using oil. Was that taken into consideration when the Government determined to cut the winter fuel allowance? What discussions were had with the Northern Ireland Executive in relation to doing so?

[Fleur Anderson]

I am aware that two thirds of Northern Ireland’s homes use oil. The decision to means test winter fuel payments was not a decision the Government wished to make, but a result of the Conservative’s £22 billion black hole. In Northern Ireland, the Executive have decided that winter fuel payments will continue to be paid to households where someone receives pension credit. I have checked the figures; in Northern Ireland it is estimated that over 26,000 people could be eligible for pension credit and the winter fuel payment but are not receiving them. I encourage anyone who is eligible, or knows someone who could be, to check and apply if they can.

Knife Crime Awareness Week

Debate between Fleur Anderson and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 21st May 2024 Westminster Hall

[Fleur Anderson]

I thank my hon. Friend and fellow London MP for raising that. Violence reduction units are really important, as is learning what works from the youth workers and police on the ground. I will talk about building on what works and using it to tackle knife crime later in my speech.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I commend the hon. Lady for securing this debate, to which I want to add a Northern Ireland perspective. Just this week, the Police Service of Northern Ireland warned of a surge in the illegal import of knives disguised as belt buckles, which has been happening since January. It is clear that there is a market for hidden knives. Does she agree that this needs to be addressed in a co-ordinated fashion in each constituency across the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland—ever mindful that, while the Minister is responsible for England, all the regions have to follow suit?

[Fleur Anderson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for bringing that up. I did not know about knives disguised as belt buckles. That just shows how legislation has to be good enough to keep ahead of every new device and new weapon that comes up. I hope that the Minister will respond on that issue in this debate.

When I was working in a youth centre before I was a MP, I worked with organisations across south-west London to look at what we can do as a community to learn from public health approaches to tackling knife crime. I have also been a youth worker.

Bridges in London: Maintenance Funding

Debate between Fleur Anderson and Jim Shannon

Tuesday 14th November 2023 Commons Chamber

[Fleur Anderson]

I absolutely agree with my constituency neighbour. This shows not only the cross-party support for the reopening of the bridge but the enormous impact that its closure is having across a wide area of London. Hammersmith bridge is a national transport route and the fact that it has been closed for so many years is a disaster for many people.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I commend the hon. Lady, and I want to add my support for her request. On Monday this week, the Quoile bridge in my constituency developed a crack right down it and it is now closed. It is a major thoroughfare that carries lots of traffic, which will now be unable to go through Downpatrick on that road for a period of time. I understand the pain that the hon. Lady feels for her constituents and I offer my support to her.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I was intrigued as to how there could be a Northern Ireland aspect to Hammersmith bridge, and now we all know. Well done, Jim!

BTEC Qualifications

Debate between Fleur Anderson and Jim Shannon

Monday 18th July 2022 Westminster Hall

[Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir Mark.

I, too, thank my neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea (Marsha De Cordova), for leading this hugely important debate. I also thank all the 108,000 people who signed the petition and the #ProtectStudentChoice coalition for their unprecedented campaign, bringing together teachers, learners, parents and businesses from across the country to ask the Government to think again on the issue.

I welcome the new Minister to her place. She has on a plate the chance to change the opportunities of thousands of young people across the country by looking again at this policy. I hope that she is listening carefully and will take this action as her homework over the summer, but urgently, because once defunded, the BTECs will be hard to put back into place. It would be much better to stop, rethink and not defund the BTECs.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I am conscious that our education system in Northern Ireland is different from the one here, so the debate is slightly different for us. Every time there is a major educational change, one to two years’ worth of children always pay the price for those changes to teaching and marking. Children cannot afford to be the losers, so does the hon. Lady share my concerns that the Minister and the Government must be cognisant of making any changes or deciding to go in a different direction?

[Fleur Anderson]

The hon. Member makes a good point: the changes will be detrimental. That is what teachers are telling us all—the MPs present today and many others. They have said that through the petition and they have told us. That is why I am in this Chamber—because the heads of my local institutions have told me of the detrimental damage if the change goes ahead.

I speak on behalf of colleges and sixth forms in Wandsworth, which are deeply concerned about the impact, especially on disadvantaged young people. The outcome will be perverse, the exact opposite of what the introduction of T-levels is supposed to do. No one present objects to T-levels; we object to taking away the three-track system.

One college, South Thames College, has already been mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Battersea. The South Thames Colleges Group has 21,000 students across south London. I have talked to those at the group, and they have a large number of students who are taking business BTEC, but would not move to the T-level because, first, they cannot work part-time—a T-level is full-time. Many people have to work part-time to make ends meet for their family, and they will not be able to do so. Their families will say, “Sorry, you cannot carry on in education. We need you to work,” so they will have to drop being able to go to South Thames. I met several of those students, who say, “I have been able to come here to do a business BTEC and my siblings want to come, but my family says they probably won’t be able to if moving to a T-level, which is full-time.”

Secondly, the college will find it hard to find enough business placements in our area. As has been mentioned by other Members, there is a high number of SMEs—small businesses—in Wandsworth that will not be able to take on the business placements, especially as so many are struggling at the moment. Just this morning I met the head of the Wandsworth chamber of commerce, who said it will be very hard for businesses to be able to support T-levels. They really want to see more students doing business BTECs and other business qualifications, but the Government’s change will have the opposite effect and will be damaging to our local economy.

The third reason why students will find it difficult to stay in education is that there are barriers to higher-level entry for T-levels. T-levels are supposed to replace BTECs as the step into post-16 education, but BTECs do something that T-levels do not. Finally, those who have to stay on and do their GCSE maths, English and catch-up will have to spend a year doing that and then start the T-level, which puts them a year behind their peers. Their peers will be going ahead with their qualifications, and they will feel that they are behind. It will not be attractive to take up a T-level, having had to spend a whole year catching up with GCSEs. If they could do the BTEC alongside catching up with GCSEs, it would be far more attractive and would keep young people in education.

South Thames College notes that the Department for Education’s impact assessment for its consultation acknowledges that students from more disadvantaged backgrounds are more likely to be taking the qualifications that the Department is planning to remove, and that it will need mitigation action to avoid causing them detriment. St Cecilia’s Church of England School in Southfields shares exactly the same concerns as those of South Thames College. It offers BTECs in business, travel and tourism, music tech and applied science. I have introduced South Thames College teachers to previous Ministers so that they could talk about their concerns, and I invite the Minister to meet those teachers in order to talk to the people who know what effect the change will have.

At St Cecilia’s, BTEC business attracts more pupils than other subject—about 25 a year. It is a popular subject at GCSE, and many then want to progress from the level 2 course to the level 3 course. It is the most valued and popular BTEC, accounting for about 25% of the school’s BTEC students, who cannot just switch from BTEC business to T-level business. The cuts would mean that a significant number of pupils in year 11 would not be able to progress to the sixth form. Worryingly, I am hearing that schools are saying they will not be able to offer anything except A-levels if we move to the proposed system. That is not what Ministers want to be the outcome of introducing T-levels, but it will be if there is no stop, reset and rethink.

Most sixth forms the size of St Cecilia’s will struggle to offer T-levels. They lack the space, the resource and the ability to merge the qualifications into a timetable in which other BTECs and A-levels are offered. St Cecilia’s says that it will not have the staff capacity to organise all the business placements that are needed, which would be another barrier. The school would be competing with other sixth forms and colleges in an already packed market in Wandsworth. If that is true in south London, how much more will it be true around the country? How much more will rural areas be affected? I just do not see how the needs of the new business T-level can be met. The head of St Cecilia’s says:

“Many pupils in Year 11 at St Cecilia’s opt to take a blended courses of BTEC alongside A levels, and so not being able to offer Business would reduce the rich diversity in our current Sixth Form too.”

If schools cannot offer T-levels for those reasons, they may switch to A-level business, but that would be a barrier to entry for pupils who prefer or need to study in a different way, for many reasons. St Cecilia’s leadership believes that defunding BTECs would go against the Government’s clear principle of placing curriculum development at the heart of school improvement. It is not trusting our student leaders, heads of education and teachers to make the best decisions, and it goes back to pupil choice as well. School leaders should be given the freedom to decide which courses are best suited to their cohorts, because they know them very well. That means a choice between BTECs, T-levels, A-levels and apprenticeships.

I would like to know what the Department is doing to address the concerns of institutions such as South Thames College and St Cecilia’s. Will the Minister come and meet them? I particularly want to know what mitigations are being proposed to help disadvantaged young people who will affected by the change. Has there been an evidence-based assessment? The Minister should look at the evidence base for making this huge decision. Will she commit to permitting a wider range of part-time work options to count as an industry placement? Will she relax restrictions on the number of placements that can make up the industry placement total?

Those are all important questions, but the most important question is whether she or her replacement will look again at this ill-thought-out and reckless policy. I implore her to rethink and not to defund BTECs. Colleges, sixth forms and students oppose it, and the losers will be the most disadvantaged.

In one fell swoop, this change will disproportionately cut educational opportunities for black and Asian students, for students from financially disadvantaged backgrounds, for students with learning disabilities, and for students with mental health challenges. It is not too late to look again at the policy and stop it. By doing that, the Minister will improve the educational opportunities of young people across the country.

Peace and Stability in the Balkans

Debate between Fleur Anderson and Jim Shannon

Wednesday 16th March 2022 Westminster Hall

[Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Bone. It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon)—it is always a pleasure to be in a debate with him. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) on securing this debate and on his opening speech, which was based on his extensive expertise on the region. He rightly called for additional time to be given to talking about securing and maintaining peace and stability in the Balkans. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s comments. I am glad that we are able to discuss this subject, and I think there is a lot of unity across the House that we want to see peace maintained in the region; we need to look at other areas affected by the Ukrainian war, including those where there was already a fragile peace before the war.

No one wants to think that there will be war in their area. When I worked as an aid worker in Bosnia, I spoke to many communities. I asked when they thought there would be war in their villages—when they thought they would have to flee. All of them knew it was very near—there were soldiers in the next-door valley—but they never thought it would come to their home, until it did. We see that in Ukraine. We hoped that the conflict would not come to this. We need to look ahead at what could happen in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

I am co-chair of the all-party parliamentary group for the prevention of genocide and crimes against humanity, and vice-chair of the all-party parliamentary group on Bosnia and Herzegovina. I was a humanitarian aid worker during the war in Bosnia, living in Belgrade and then in Banja Luka. Four years later, I returned with my baby to head Christian Aid’s Bosnia office, rebuilding villages in north-west Bosnia and supporting the return of refugees. So I knew a bit of what it feels like to live amongst a war in a region—the chaos that ensues and the uprooting of people’s lives—and how long it takes to rebuild afterwards.

This House is united in support for peace, and for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all the states in the region, including Ukraine, and Bosnia and Herzegovina. However, I think that unfortunately the Government’s policy on the Balkans could go further and I will focus on three points—Russia, sanctions and civil society.

If any Member here or anyone reading the debate in Hansard thinks that Putin does not have designs on the Balkans as well as Ukraine, they need to think again, and if they think that peace is not very fragile indeed in the Balkan states, especially in the Republika Srpska, they need to think again. The violence in Ukraine makes clear Putin’s intention to fuel instability and division across the whole region. The Balkans is no exception.

The UK still has no atrocity prevention strategy for any of its offices, including those in this region, or as part of its policy towards Ukraine. Such a strategy would mean looking at early warning systems, training civil servants, learning from best practice in other areas, and specifically taking action to prevent atrocities.

The risks have already been increasing, particularly with regard to Bosnia and Herzegovina, as my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly noted. Six months ago, there was talk of potential war. Piece by piece, Milorad Dodik, the leader of Republika Srpska, is dismantling the Dayton peace treaty. That cannot be allowed to happen. Lines must be drawn.

For years, Dodik has been advocating the separation of Republika Srpska from Bosnia—for it to be part of Serbia. With support from Russia and Serbia, he has recently intensified his secessionist campaign. On 10 February, Republika Srpska lawmakers voted to create a high prosecutorial judicial council, which will have the power to choose its own judges and prosecutors. He is also working on creating a Bosnian Serb army, a separate judiciary and tax system, and is continuing with genocide denial. It cannot be said often enough that there can be no denial of the genocide in Srebrenica. In July 1995, more than 8,000 men and boys were killed in Srebrenica. To deny that it happened, and to fuel nationalist sentiment within the region, is almost an act of war.

[Jim Shannon]

The hon. Lady and others in this Chamber will have heard the right hon. and gallant Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) recall in graphic detail some of his experiences of genocide and murder in the Balkans. There is not a time that I do not listen to him and feel incredibly moved. I think the hon. Lady has heard him as well. For those who perhaps have not heard his story—few in the Chamber have not—it will always bring back the cold, brutal reality of what happened, which the hon. Lady is referring to.

[Fleur Anderson]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising that. I have met many of the relatives of those who disappeared that day in Srebrenica, and I have spoken to many who, even years afterwards, hoped that their relative was not there because they had not had the proof, which it was absolutely heartbreaking to know. The reverberation carries on not only with all those directly affected but through the generations. When we say “never again”, we must ensure that it is never again, and that we note the build-up of potential war and conflict and a fragile peace being shattered in the region. We can have no excuse for not seeing it coming. We have no excuse for not taking action to prevent anything like Srebrenica happening again.

The Foreign Secretary said that the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office knew Russia was going to invade Ukraine, but made no preparations for the human rights crisis that would follow; and we have seen chaos ensue in the last few weeks. Preparations need to be made in Bosnia now. So I would like to question the Minister today, and hope he will tell us what preparations are being made to ensure that peace is built and created, and that any moves to war are being stopped in the Balkan region.

Afghan Citizens Resettlement Scheme

Debate between Fleur Anderson and Jim Shannon

Thursday 6th January 2022 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the Afghan Citizens Resettlement Scheme.

My thanks to you, Ms Ali, and to the Backbench Business Committee for the opportunity to raise this essential issue. I know that it has been addressed today in a statement in the Chamber, but unfortunately I could not be there because I was in another debate. I apologised in advance to the Minister’s Parliamentary Private Secretary. I have also provided my notes so the Minister probably knows where I am coming from.

It is only right that I start by putting on the record my thanks to my Minister and my Government for what they have done on the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme, and for how our Government have conveyed the compassion that is needed for the Afghan refugees we watched on TV, even though we might not have met them personally. I certainly hope I will meet some of them in my constituency of Strangford. I want to express my thanks for the generosity of this great nation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

I am keen to express some concerns. I know that other Members, such as the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce), will also want to make a plea on behalf of those I refer to as a persecuted people—the religious and ethnic minorities; those living in Afghanistan even now—as to how our Minister and Government can respond. I also wish to say that while I welcome the four-year plan, I am concerned that four years might mean that some will, I fear to say, not be here, and that they will not get their opportunity to come to this country. Therefore we need urgency.

The Taliban’s swift takeover of Afghanistan in August 2021, in the wake of UK, US and NATO forces withdrawing from the country, has left many Afghans concerned and terrified for their future. Initial statements from the Taliban claiming that they had reformed certain elements of their ideology, positioning themselves as a less nefarious force, were, unsurprisingly, blatant lies—we cannot believe a word that comes out of their mouths. Sadly, we know all too well that Afghans who do not adhere to the Taliban’s harsh and strict interpretation of Sunni Islam, especially those who adhere to other faiths or beliefs, face a grave threat. Since the Taliban took control of Afghanistan, members of ethnic and religious minority communities, supporters of the former Government, and other minorities have lived in fear of violence, torture, and even execution.

None of us in this Chamber could fail to be moved by the scenes of chaos that we saw at Kabul airport, of people fleeing for their lives. I hope—indeed, I believe—we can all agree that there is a pressing need to protect these vulnerable groups, and a moral obligation to defend their most fundamental human rights. I very much welcomed the announcement on 18 August that Her Majesty’s Government would launch the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme, a bespoke initiative to enable vulnerable Afghan citizens to be settled in the UK. That scheme is designed to provide protection for Afghans identified as most at risk: their gender, sexuality and religion could all be indicators of vulnerability, as well as having advocated for democracy and human rights. I am very grateful to the Government for working to support those groups, but much more must be done, which is why we are having this debate today.

We need to be more anxious, more keen and more determined to deliver what we intended to deliver through the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme in August last year. Given the subsequent months of fear that vulnerable Afghans have faced, it is necessary to obtain clarity on how that scheme will work. Again, I apologise that although I was present in the main Chamber for part of the Minister’s statement, I was not there for all of the answers that she gave. After four long months of silence and seeming shrinking of responsibility, I welcomed the Minister’s announcement on 23 December that the scheme would open this month. I stress the urgency of that scheme for vulnerable persons in Afghanistan, and the need for the swift opening of applications. I believe with all my heart that there is an urgency to this matter and a need to expedite the process as soon as possible. I look forward to more details being made available to Parliament at the Minister’s earliest convenience, as we all eagerly await details of how the UK will mobilise to assist these vulnerable people.

As chair of the all-party parliamentary group for international freedom of religion or belief, I have spoken to many colleagues who are deeply concerned about the current situation in Afghanistan. When it comes to freedom of religion or belief, conditions in the country have deteriorated drastically since the Taliban seized control last year. Religious or belief minorities are facing a particular threat, and it is heartbreaking to hear some of their stories. I will focus on religious and ethnic groups, not on individuals, because if we focus on individuals, it is very hard to move away from that. I would have very much liked to have seen earlier prioritisation and understanding of this issue. Greater clarity as to the eligibility criteria would have conveyed the Government’s dedication to the issue.

One such group in Afghanistan that I would like to draw attention to today is the Hazara community, labelled as heretical by the Taliban, along with other non-Sunni Muslims. The Hazara community has long faced discrimination and violence, and has suffered social and economic marginalisation and waves of physical attacks. When the Taliban were last in power, the Hazaras faced targeted violence, and many fled as refugees to neighbouring Iran and Pakistan in search of safety, such was their fear of what might happen if they and their families remained in Afghanistan. Since its emergence, ISIS in the Khorasan province—ISIS-K, as it is referred to—has also attacked this community, and has stated its goal to exterminate the Shi’a Muslims, including the Hazara Muslims.

There has been a resurgence of attacks on the Hazara community since the Taliban took control of Afghanistan. Hazara schools and religious sites have been bombed, medical clinics have been targeted, and Hazara civilians have been murdered by the Taliban and ISIS-K. A recent report by Amnesty International in December 2021, “Afghanistan: No escape: War crimes and civilian harm during the fall of Afghanistan to the Taliban”, emphasised that the Hazara Muslims are at considerable risk of targeting by Taliban forces. That report highlights the targeted killings of Hazara Muslims in Daykundi and Mundarakht provinces in July 2021. After taking control of Afghanistan’s Ghazni province, Taliban fighters massacred nine Hazara men in the village of Mundarakht. Eyewitnesses have since given harrowing accounts of those killings. Six of the nine men were shot. Three were tortured. Similarly devastating, on 30 August, Taliban forces killed 13 Hazaras, including a 17-year-old girl, in Kahor village in Afghanistan’s Daykundi province, after members of the security forces of the former Government surrendered. Those are the very people they were surely trying to save.

Depressingly, such brutal killings likely represent a tiny fraction of the total death toll inflicted by the Taliban to date. The group have cut mobile phone services in many of the areas they have recently captured, controlling which media from those regions are shared. Such attacks must not go unnoticed, which is why we are holding this debate and are looking for action right now.

[Fleur Anderson (Putney) (Lab)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for securing this debate at this important time, and for highlighting the plight of the Hazara community. Relatives among my constituents have been in touch with me. Does he share my concern that there is no way to apply for the scheme? Relatives in the Hazara community have no way of knowing whether their family members are in the system and should be contacted within the next six months or a year. It is very unclear whether those people are going to be safe, despite the fact that they are in hiding and in fear of their lives.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Lady very much for all the work she did in her previous job—I have said it before, but I say it in Westminster Hall for the first time. I am aware that she has a heart for this subject matter. I agree with her point exactly. That is one of the things we are looking for—how do these people get into the system to ensure that they get the opportunity of the Afghan resettlement scheme and we get the opportunity to have them in this country?

Hazaras are not the only community at risk. Far too many other minority communities also face a bleak and precarious future. Amnesty International’s report lists a litany of attacks against many religious minorities. Owing to the Taliban’s interpretation of sharia law, they consider conversion from Islam to another religion apostasy, and do not hesitate to punish such a decision by death. Afghan Christians, Ahmadi Muslims, Baha’is and those of no religious belief are all unable to express their faiths or beliefs openly due to fear of the dire consequences from the Taliban.

Ahmadi Muslims, for instance, are not recognised by either the Sunni or Shi’a Muslim faiths and have suffered a long history of persecution in Afghanistan, including public stoning in the early 19th and 20th centuries. Heaven forbid such hostility should prevail once again. Today, Afghan Ahmadis practise their faith in secret due to continued societal persecution and discrimination.

Christians, of which I am one, are another group at grave risk. We know people who are still in Afghanistan. As the hon. Member for Putney (Fleur Anderson) said in her intervention, the issue is how we get those people on the list. We need to know. I look to the Minister to give some response, focus, direction and pointers on how we do that, for all the people that we are going to speak about.

Many Afghan Christians are converts from Islam and are therefore considered apostates according to Afghan law. They have already faced ostracisation and the threat of honour killings by family members, but such retaliatory measures are now at heightened risk with the Taliban in power. Those people are in fear of their lives.

According to reports from the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom, Christian converts receive threats in a variety of forms. A Dari-speaking network in the United States of America that supports Afghan house churches has reported that a leader of a house church network with more than 500 members received a letter signed by the Taliban, threatening him and his family. It read, “We know where you are and what you are doing.” That brings back to me chilling memories from Northern Ireland and what the IRA used to do—“We know who you are and where you live.” We can all guess the implications and imagine the fear incited. On 15 August, Taliban members visited the leader’s home, but he and his family had already gone into hiding—a point that the hon. Member for Putney referred to.

In essence, the Taliban has successfully stifled freedom of religion or belief. These people need help. How do we get help to them? How do we let them know that they have a route to the end of it?

Some Christians have had to abandon the use of their phones and have moved to undisclosed locations for unknown lengths of time just in hopes of being left alone. Other church members have received threats and visits from the Taliban. During one visit, Taliban members took a 14-year-old daughter from one of the families. Months later, that family still have no idea what has happened to their daughter. We can imagine the heartache and pain in their hearts.

Humanist and atheist beliefs are also considered apostasy and punishable by death. Arash Kargar, a humanist in Afghanistan, describes his life as,

“facing constant problems with family, friends, and even in dealing with people at the university campus and the community at large. Having any beliefs outside of Islam or that…are not compatible with Islam and its teachings is considered an unforgivable crime. Such a view is prevalent throughout society, family, friends and even at the university...There are two ways available to me and others like me: Either stay quiet for your entire life which in turn is an imposed punishment for a social being like humans, or voice your concern for equality, freedom of thought and expression publicly. But to what cost?”

The ultimatum that Arash faces is faced by thousands of others in Afghanistan, even more so since the Taliban took over.

I hope that my summary of the different groups in Afghanistan that we know of—and others here know of directly through their constituents—shows the enormity of what we are trying to achieve, and what Government need to grasp through the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme. It also demonstrates the extent to which freedom of religion or belief is violated in Afghanistan, and how vital it is that these groups are offered safe resettlement. Whether they are Hazaras, Christians, Humanists, Uyghur Muslims, Baha’is or other minority groups, extreme levels of persecution haunt their waking moments. The Afghan citizens resettlement scheme seeks to provide for 5,000 spaces a year over four years for vulnerable Afghan citizens to be resettled in the UK. By the end of this scheme the UK will have aided in resettling 20,000 Afghan citizens. I said it at the beginning of the debate and I will say it again: I understand and welcome what the Government are doing, but we want to feed into the process in a way that can help those people that we know of. Some of those people we may never meet in this world, but we know them through our constituents and through others.

While the creation of this pathway fills me with much hope, it is vital that this scheme is treated with the urgency that is needed. Four years is too long to wait for vulnerable communities who are facing arrests, torture, extrajudicial killings, war crimes or even genocide. I ask that this Government—my Government; my Minister—reconsider the staggered approach to the resettlement scheme and clarify how a four-year-long wait is justifiable when it is a matter of life or death. That is the issue and the core of where I am coming from.

I thank the Government for their commitment to starting the Afghan citizen resettlement scheme. I have set myself a time limit of 20 minutes, which will give plenty of time for everybody else to participate—I will not go beyond that. I thank the Minister and the Department for the commitment, and the letter that I got last week. Willowbrook Foods and Mash Direct, two companies in my constituency, in September 2021 offered jobs to any Afghan people who wanted to resettle in this country. Not only did they offer them jobs, but they offered them accommodation as well. I have sent the details of the Minister’s letter on to those two companies; those two companies will respond very quickly about what they are able to offer. I hope that my constituents in Strangford will offer what the hon. Member for Putney and everyone else here wants—the opportunity to reach out and help, and to give people hope for the future. These people did not want to leave Afghanistan; they did so because they had no other option. We in this country, with the compassion that we have and the ability that we have to help, need to do so.

As I draw to the end of my remarks, I would like to end on a note of hope. Much work has been done in the past few months by individuals and organisations to assist those on the ground in Afghanistan. They have not squandered time in the face of this very real human rights crisis, and I believe that Government could learn from their example. I want to praise the work of people like Baroness Kennedy, who has seen more than 100 female Afghan judges and their families rescued from Afghanistan. I think the Minister mentioned that in her statement on the Floor of the House of Commons today.

I also offer my thanks to the many colleagues who have repeatedly asked for answers and assurances on the Afghan citizens resettlement scheme. We want to see all of those people who have come here for a new life, new opportunities and a new beginning have that opportunity across the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The Afghan citizens resettlement scheme is such a scheme. However, I want to stress again that urgent action is needed to prevent the tragedy that will happen in Afghanistan if we do not get those people over here and into this system.

When it comes to leadership and the resettlement scheme, I thank the Minister on behalf of my constituents in Strangford, who want to help. The two companies that I have mentioned also want to help. With that in mind, I look forward to the Minister’s response and thank hon. Members for coming to make a contribution to the debate.