Child Benefit

Fiona O'Donnell Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd May 2012 Westminster Hall

[Mr Chope]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. I am grateful to him for reminding us about the 10p tax rate, because that introduces a bit of political balance into this debate. It is not just the coalition Government, or the previous Conservative Government, who can get on the wrong side of such issues, both in respect of the principle and of the detail. We need an answer to the question of why the single-parent earner on £60,000 loses the equivalent of all her child benefit, while next door the two-earner couple on up to £100,000, with their incomes spread equally between the earners, keep their child benefit. Will there be an answer to that question? Perhaps the Minister would like to intervene. Unless we get answers to those fundamental questions, it will be difficult for us to sell the concept to our constituents.

[Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman is making an excellent contribution. Does he agree that the unfairness of the measure goes beyond income? It does not take account of the number of children in any household.

[Mr Chope]

Of course it does not, because the whole thing is arbitrary. It is all based on the false premise that people on £20,000 or £30,000 a year are cross-subsidising those on higher incomes with children. I have had a letter published in The Daily Telegraph and the Minister has replied to my questions, but it is apparent from my hon. Friend’s answers that there is no cross-subsidy from a person on £20,000 a year to someone on £60,000 a year with however many children—that is a fallacy. I suspect that the policy is based on someone going to a focus group and asking, “Is it fair that someone on £20,000 should be subsidising a family on £60,000 with a whole lot of children?” Of course it would not be fair if it was true, but it is not true—it is a false premise and, on the basis of that, we have a policy that I fear will lose the Conservative party a large number of votes.

Let us not forget, however, that the origins of the policy lie not in the Conservative party but with the Liberal Democrats. Before the general election they were campaigning to interfere in that policy area. With the knowledge that the measure was originally proposed and supported by the Liberal Democrats, this is another example of an area in which the Prime Minister can feel free to make significant change if he wishes to respond to agitation on his Back Benches for a bigger Conservative element in Government policy. Officials have previously suggested that something should be done about taking child benefit away from those on higher earnings but my right hon. Friend the Member for Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley), who was a Treasury Minister, said that, after looking at it from all angles, we reached the conclusion that it could not be done fairly. So what are the present Government going to do? They are going to do it, and they are going to do it unfairly.

What worries me is that the measure will be administratively burdensome as well, costing more than £100 million in extra administration. We will be taking on tens of thousands of additional civil servants when the Government are saying that we want to simplify tax policy, reduce the size of the state bureaucracy and so on. There is no consistency, and I fear for my party.

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[Kate Green]

The hon. Gentleman is right. I hope to come on to the situation when John Major was Prime Minister, and some of the arguments then.

For the benefit of many hon. Members who do not seem to appreciate the underlying principles of universal child benefit, I want to put them on the record this morning. I am sorry that they are not in the Chamber to have the benefit of my exposition, but they can read it in the Official Report. As hon. Members have said, this benefit, which is important for families, is a mechanism that is redistributive horizontally and vertically, as my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham said. As other hon. Members have said, in practice that means that families with children receive extra help to meet the cost of raising their children because, as a society, we all share the benefit of those children making a future contribution to our communal well-being. It is right to provide that support universally, and to recognise that we all share in the social obligation to maintain those families.

Over its life, the benefit is redistributive, and it enables all families to manage the additional costs that they face when raising young children, and to plan their finances across their whole lifetime. Importantly, in practice—this has been alluded to—it is a benefit that has been paid mostly to mothers. The vast majority of child benefit is paid to mothers. Even in the richest families, it is the only source of independent income for many women, and it is essential that they have access to it to provide for and to meet the needs of their children.

As hon. Members have said, we know that that money is spent for the benefit of children, either directly on toys, books, activities, clothes, shoes and so on, or indirectly by paying down family debt, ensuring that basic household bills are covered. Things that are essential for children’s well-being are prioritised in all families, and one reason is the label it bears. There is good research evidence showing that because it is called “child benefit”, it is understood that it must be spent for the benefit of children, and that is what happens.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

Does my hon. Friend agree that we are talking not only about the income received, mostly by women, but also about national insurance credits that build up to a pension? People may not be in the same relationship when they retire, but the risk is that women will make a credit-only claim and that they will lose out in the long term.

[Kate Green]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. If women come under pressure to forgo child benefit, rather than their partner seeing an increase in their tax bill—I believe that that will happen in some families—they will lose the benefit of their national insurance credits. That will have a lifetime impact on those women and their pension entitlement. We cannot wish to pursue a policy that risks making women poorer throughout their life.

This benefit is directed towards children and has been designed to follow a child and stay with them even if their family circumstances change. That is particularly important if a relationship breaks down, because a woman may have no other source of income at that point. It may be an acrimonious dispute in which she is struggling to extract money from her former partner, and child benefit is often the only source of income on which she can rely to get through that family breakdown and make the transition to single parenthood. When I was director of the National Council for One Parent Families, even women in relationships that were financially well off described to me how important child benefit had been at that moment of family change. If women start to forgo that benefit under pressure from a partner who later decides to leave the household altogether, I worry that we will disadvantage those women and their children, which is something that we will regret.

I am surprised by the Government’s approach because it introduces a policy that will act as a disincentive to work. Universal child benefit does not disadvantage those who move into paid employment, because the benefit remains. The incentive to increase income through more working hours or going for a promotion will be removed for some families, and I cannot understand why Ministers, who are often concerned to incentivise people to maximise their income from employment, wish to go down such a route. The Government have the right objective, but this policy seems particularly perverse.

As my hon. Friends and the hon. Member for Christchurch have highlighted, the complexity that is being introduced into the system is completely at odds with the Government’s stated intention to simplify the tax system. Simplicity is not just an advantage in itself, but it means that payment is more reliable, and more likely to be accurate and more predictable. There is also much less stigma attached to the receipt of a simple universal flat-rate payment for all families.

One criticism is often levelled against the payment of child benefit to richer people, and it would probably have been made this morning had more hon. Members attended the debate—today there are mostly proponents of child benefit in the Chamber, which is perhaps why the point has not been raised. I want to put on record my response to those who ask why we are giving child benefit to people on higher incomes and asking those on lower incomes to help pay for that. The fact is that we do not—and should not—make the same argument when it comes to the national health service or our children’s education, and we do not make it for the tax system or say that higher earners should not receive the benefit of the recent increase in the tax threshold. As I am sure the hon. Member for Christchurch will remember, the higher rate of child benefit for the first child was intended to replace what had previously been the married couple’s tax allowance. It seems particularly perverse that we are now effectively seeking to tax a tax allowance, instead of understanding that in every other part of the tax system, such allowances stretch across the income spectrum. Now, we have decided to treat child benefit differently.

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[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. It has also been a pleasure to listen to passionate and well-thought-out and well-delivered speeches from hon. Members who feel very strongly about this issue. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods), who brought it to Westminster Hall this morning to give us slightly more time to debate it than we had on the Floor of the House. I remember that the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr Chope) pointed out then that we had 52 minutes to debate both the clause and the schedule. I heard what he said earlier today and I responded at that time, but I will say again that if we can find ways, across the Chamber, to ensure further scrutiny on Report of both the clause and the very important points in the schedule, that will be very helpful. I would certainly be more than willing to lend our support to see how we can do that.

[Fiona O’Donnell]

As well as welcoming the contributions this morning, would my hon. Friend agree that perhaps the Minister should be concerned that not a single hon. Member has turned up to support his proposals?

[Cathy Jamieson]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. I was not going to point out that the Minister seems to be on his own this morning. I am sure that none the less he is very capable of dealing with the questions that have come up and will receive inspiration from various sources in order to do so. However, I will take the opportunity to repeat gently the advice that I tried to give the Minister during the discussion on the Floor of the House: “When you’re in a hole, it’s better to stop digging and find a ladder to get yourself out of that hole.” At that time, we were suggesting that we would be willing to work with the Government to see what could be done to mitigate the worst outcomes of this flawed policy, and that offer still stands.

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[Cathy Jamieson]

I thank my hon. Friend for putting that on the record. I am sure that note will duly be taken.

I want to use this opportunity to explain how we have got to the position we are in and what we need to do to resolve the problems. It is worth remembering that when the plans were announced, a single-income household earning just over £43,000 would have lost all the benefit, but a dual-income household on £84,000 would have kept all of it. The 2012 Budget increased the threshold for the withdrawal of child benefit to those earning £50,000 or more from 2013-14. That might have gone some way towards solving the problem for some families—the estimate was that about 750,000 might be in a better position—but it does not get away from the essential point that the principle of universality is fundamental to child benefit, as my hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham and other hon. Members have said.

We heard powerful speeches from my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) and others about why the principle is important and why we must do everything we possibly can to defend it. Child benefit is supposed to be about providing families, particularly mothers, with a dependable source of income for the benefit of the children and which a mother knows she will get irrespective of what goes on in the family. As we have heard, research from Child Poverty Action Group and others shows that the money is by and large spent on the day-to-day necessities for children.

I do not want to take us off-track, but the hon. Member for Christchurch mentioned the community charge. He was a junior Minister when it was introduced, as he explained, and I was a young mum. I spent many a wet Saturday campaigning against the introduction of the community charge in Scotland. If anything at that time politicised me and many other women, it was the unfairness of what the Government were doing. I do not say that to be critical of the hon. Gentleman—he has been very helpful this morning—but simply to say that when put in front of Ministers, sometimes issues look like a wonderful wheeze on the basis of the paperwork that the Government have produced, but it is when we look at the impact on people’s lives that such policies begin to fall apart. That is what is happening here.

I want to say a few words about the other issues raised in the debate. My hon. Friend the Member for City of Durham spoke not only about the principles of child benefit and the unworkability of the proposals, but about their legality. She made a powerful statement: these changes are wrong and they should not happen. That is absolutely right and it is the position that we are coming from this morning.

My hon. Friend the Member for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson) mentioned workability and the fact that the proposals were far too complex. She critically identified the real impact on real families. A family with three kids could find itself with a bill of £600 at the end of the year. That might not seem to be a big deal when someone is writing it in a policy proposal, but for many families that £600 bill will mean the difference between being able to buy necessary items for their kids and not being able to do so. Being asked to pay such a bill suddenly can throw a household budget out for months.

[Fiona O’Donnell]

I thank my hon. Friend for her generosity in giving way again. Does she agree that we need clarification from the Minister? If a parent who is entitled to child benefit throughout the year receives a bonus from an employer at the end of the tax year that takes them over the threshold, what will happen to the family?

[Cathy Jamieson]

My hon. Friend makes another useful point. We raised that issue with the Minister on the Floor of the House. Many people, because they get a bonus at work or because they are self-employed, will find at the end of the year that they have earned either more or less than they anticipated. Many self-employed people are not earning huge sums of money, so such issues are critical to them.

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[The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. I congratulate the hon. Member for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) on securing the debate, and thank all the hon. Members who have contributed. A number of factual questions have been asked about the operation of the policy on child benefit, and I shall deal with as many as possible.

The changes that we announced at Budget 2012 ensure a balance between reducing the cost to the Exchequer of child benefit and ensuring that those on low incomes will not be affected. I must put the measure in context; it is the consequence of the state of the public finances that the Government inherited. We have to make decisions because of the Budget deficit that we inherited—the largest in our modern history. It is, unfortunately, the British people who will have to pay for the debt left to us by the previous Administration.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

I follow the Minister’s argument about the need to reduce the deficit, but will he acknowledge that that is no excuse for a bad policy that even Members on his own side acknowledge is intrinsically unfair?

[Mr Gauke]

It is because of the state of the public finances that we must take difficult decisions. I will strongly defend the policy, but I must make the point to hon. Members who oppose it that it is helping us to reduce the deficit by £1.8 billion. If we do not find that sum in the way in question, we will need to find it somewhere else, or borrow more. That is the decision that we all face.