Welfare Reform (Cumbria)

Esther McVey Excerpts

Wednesday 16th July 2014 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Employment (Esther McVey)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dobbin, and to reply to the hon. Member for Copeland (Mr Reed). I congratulate him on securing the debate. I have listened closely to all that he has said, so I will answer all the points he has raised.

It is important to put the situation into context. When the Government came into office, it was clear that the welfare system we inherited was in need of reform and was not working. For far too long, Governments had shied away from making any significant reform, and we had ended up with a complex system that had numerous add-ons. It was complicated for all concerned. The benefit system frequently locked people into benefits rather than liberating them and allowing them to get into work. We had to look at that and think about how we could best sort out a complex system that had grown exponentially under Labour.

If we look at the costs, Labour spent £170 billion on tax credits between 2003-04 and 2010, and contributed to a 60% rise in the welfare bill. Supporting that bill was costing every individual an extra £3,000 a year, and 1.4 million people spent most of the past decade trapped on out-of-work benefits. Around 2.8 million people spent at least five years on some sort of out-of-work benefit. Youth unemployment rose by 45% and long-term unemployment doubled under Labour. Those were the things we had to tackle. The explosion in those numbers came during what some might have called a boom period, between 1997 and 2005.

It is worth noting that at the 2010 election, when we took over, there were 600,000 more people in relative poverty than there are today. There were 300,000 more children and 200,000 more pensioners in relative poverty. There were 400,000 more workless households and 50,000 more households in which no member of the household had ever worked. The hon. Gentleman’s contribution to the debate did not relate to the reality of those facts and figures.

[Mr Reed]

I am grateful to the Minister for her response so far, but she has not yet touched on a single issue that I raised about my constituents and the county of Cumbria.

[Esther McVey]

I am putting the situation in context and showing how many of the figures that the hon. Gentleman cited were inaccurate. I am putting into context why and how we are doing things. Today, the most recent employment statistics have been published. The aim of all our benefit changes has been to liberate people and help them to get into work, and today we have seen a record rate of people getting into work—a rate matched only pre-recession, in 2005. That is nearly 1 million extra people in work this year, and nearly 1.8 million people in work since 2010.

[Mr Reed]

rose—

[Esther McVey]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman if he will provide some facts rather than fantasy.

[Mr Reed]

Fantasy is the Minister’s exclusive preserve. We clearly disagree over the figures, so will she come to my constituency? Will she come and do a tour of Cumbria, meet people and speak to them about the realities of their lives and the effects of her policies? Yes or no?

[Esther McVey]

I was in Cumbria only a week or two ago, discussing those things. I get out regularly and speak to people right across the country, many of whom have told me how they had been abandoned on long-term unemployment, but not any more. Many of them have been on the Work programme and they have now got a job. About 5 million people have been through the Work programme and 300,000 have got sustained work.

Looking specifically at unemployment in Copeland, the hon. Gentleman will be delighted that unemployment has come down by 25%, long-term unemployment is down 30%, youth unemployment is down 36% and long-term youth unemployment is down 40%. That is specifically in his constituency, and those figures are not mine or the Government’s; they are the latest independent, verified figures. I would like the hon. Gentleman to apologise for what he said.

[Mr Reed]

Of course there is no apology to be offered, because none is deserved. Does the Minister recognise the phenomenon of in-work poverty?

[Esther McVey]

There have always been people in work who find things hard. The figures I read out have significantly reduced under this Government. The process, ideology and thought behind universal credit is to ensure that work pays and that every extra hour worked pays, rather than having cliff edges as we had under the old system with which the hon. Gentleman was happy to live. People did not know whether it was right to get a job. They could be locked into benefits because there was a cliff edge at 16 hours a week. We have sought to remove all those things.

Cumbria county council has set up a county welfare reform group to keep a keen eye on the delivery and administration of welfare reform. A Jobcentre Plus manager is part of that group, enabling us to ensure that all concerns and worries are heard and addressed. I understand there is a good, close working relationship, so if anyone has any specific issues or concerns, they can go through Jobcentre Plus, and that is reflected in the survey of what goes on in the area. All of that is key.

There are nearly 24,000 Jobcentre Plus staff across the country. Their main aim is to support people by helping them with the benefits they need when they come through the door and by helping them into work. The Government have ensured that that relationship is more personal than ever before. We have introduced a claimant commitment, so that when someone comes in they can say, “This is what I hope to do,” and we will say, “Okay. How do we get you on that journey?” There has been a significant shift in the approach and in what people do. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would like to visit his Jobcentre Plus and see that transformation in everything that happens.

[Mr Reed]

The Minister will appreciate that I have done that many times. The report makes it clear that there is an obvious competence deficit in the roll-out of these policies by the Department and Ministers. It is not only claimants who are saying that; people who work in jobcentres and non-party political figures such as the Bishop of Carlisle are saying it, too. Does the Minister regret the lack of competence in the entire policy platform?

[Esther McVey]

The chap obviously wants to write a press release—he wants to write something that is not true—to put in his local papers. Competence is not an issue. We have introduced some of the biggest ever welfare changes. We know they are working, because the things that the hon. Gentleman and his party talked about, such as double-dip and triple-dip recessions, never happened. They talked about an extra 1 million people being unemployed. It was wrong—it did not happen. He and his party put across terrible scare stories, but they did not happen. In fact, the total reverse happened. Nearly 2 million extra people are now in work, and they are predominantly full-time, permanent jobs. That is wonderful news. There are record rates of women in employment. Youth unemployment has fallen for 10 consecutive months, and it is now 127,000 lower than at the general election. Long-term youth unemployment is also lower than at the general election. I gave him the unemployment figures for his specific area, and they are all significantly down.

[Mr Reed]

I am uncertain whether the Minister is disputing the figures in the independent report. Will she be categorically clear about that? Does she accept the figures and the findings of the report? The Bishop of Carlisle and an independent group of people assessed the impact of welfare reform on Cumbria, not just my constituency. Are they wrong? Are their figures wrong? If they are, what is their motivation?

[Esther McVey]

Most people’s motivation is for the best and is to support people—

[Mr Reed]

Are the figures right or wrong?

[Esther McVey]

Hang on a second. People produce figures that have not been fully authorised, cleared or passed off. Our figures have to go through the National Audit Office and independent bodies such as the International Labour Organisation because their estimation of what has happened are much more thorough and valid. Estimates based on very small samples may be right, but they can be distorted by the smallness of the sample.

I will now make a little headway, as I believe I have been generous in giving way. The hon. Gentleman has made many points that, as I have pointed out, are not particularly accurate or are distorted by the prism through which he wants to see things.

[Mr Reed]

Will the Minister give way?

[Esther McVey]

No, I will not give way at the moment. We have talked about why the spare room subsidy was introduced—

[Mr Reed]

Bedroom tax.

[Esther McVey]

The hon. Gentleman wants to call it by another name. I am happy to call it by either name, but in statute it is the removal of the spare room subsidy. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman is smiling, so he obviously realises that his own party introduced it for the private rented sector in 2008. Indeed, his party was going to introduce it for the social rented sector, as we have read in Hansard. He is smiling and pretending that it is something that he might or might not do, but in reality it came from his party. Why did that come about? Because the housing bill had doubled in 10 years, reaching £26 billion, which we all know was a bill that we could not afford after the financial crash and after the biggest ever recession in peacetime since 1930.

[Mr Reed]

On a point of order, Mr Dobbin. The Minister is refusing to talk about the issue at hand. There is a blanket refusal to talk about the impact of welfare reform in Cumbria and west Cumbria in particular. How can that be in order?

--- Later in debate ---

[Esther McVey]

I am in order. I have given the employment stats for what is going on in the constituency of the hon. Member for Copeland, and I have spoken clearly about what is happening in his jobcentres. We are now talking clearly about what is going on in his constituency with the spare room subsidy. I am saying why those decisions were taken, because I cannot give a specific answer unless people know the generality.

What happened with the spare room subsidy? We could not afford it. Labour had already introduced the measure. We have to consider the 2 million people on the housing waiting list and the 400,000 people in overcrowded accommodation. We have to ask how we will support the taxpayers paying for it, who might not have spare bedrooms themselves, as well as the people on waiting lists and the people in overcrowded accommodation. We took a decision, which had to be that people with a spare bedroom who are more than happy to stay would now have to pay for that spare bedroom. We also said that we would treble discretionary housing payments for affected areas to allow people to move if they wanted.

Discretionary housing payments were given to six different areas in Cumbria, but interestingly, although councils that needed more money for discretionary housing payments applied for money from a £20 million pot shared across the country, Cumbria did not do that. There was not one bid. There could have been—if Cumbria had thought that it needed more money to help more people in the area, there was an extra pot of £20 million. Unfortunately, only £13 million was deployed to the various places that made requests, and £7 million went back to central Government. Places such as Copeland did not ask for that money, so it must have been deduced that they did not need the money. If the local MP would have liked to have helped his local council and constituents by doing a bit more prep and homework—rather than arguing afterwards, once he had missed the money and once the money had been spent—he could have got some of that money and helped the constituents he is talking about. Unfortunately, he chose not to do that.

We were talking about how PIP is being introduced and why. DLA spending had increased considerably, and there is still an increase in expenditure. DLA has not been cut—it has been increased; it is just not growing as rapidly as in the past. What we had seen under DLA, which is why we are changing it, was that people did not have additional corroborating medical evidence. More than half of DLA claims do not have such evidence, so we are saying, “Under this Government, and in this Parliament, we will give out this money and we will support people as best we can, but we need to focus that money on those who need it the most. It is therefore vital that we have that corroborating medical evidence.” That is what we are doing.

[Mr Reed]

The Minister should be embarrassed by her response to this debate. She has refused to accept—