Oral Answers to Questions

Emily Thornberry Excerpts

Tuesday 7th January 2025 Commons Chamber

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

13. How many and what proportion of NHS employees have received enhanced maternity leave entitlements under Agenda for Change contracts.

[The Minister for Secondary Care (Karin Smyth)]

I thank my new Dame Friend for her question. The Department does not collect data on the number of people who have specifically received enhanced maternity leave entitlements. Access to an enhanced maternity leave benefit forms part of the total reward package for Agenda for Change staff, which we believe is critical for retaining our much-valued and needed NHS workforce.

[Emily Thornberry]

Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Doctors throughout the NHS, no matter who employs them, have blanket maternity agreements, but nurses do not. When I visited the River Place health centre, I found that nurses employed by Whittington Health were working alongside nurses employed by the GP practice who got completely different maternity leave and pay. As we turn out our hospitals into the community and do much more work in that way, such anomalies will get worse. It is not fair and I wonder what my hon. Friend is going to do about it.

[Karin Smyth]

My right hon. Friend highlights a problem throughout the system, not just in her area. Self-employed contractors to NHS GP surgeries are not bound by national terms and conditions; they can develop their terms and conditions as they see fit. They have the flexibility to set terms and conditions to aid recruitment and retention. We anticipate that good employers will set wage rates and terms and conditions that reflect the skills and experience of their staff. That is better for staff and for patients, and I know that she will continue to highlight that with her local employer. It is certainly something that we need to keep an eye on as we develop services further.

Covid-19: Government Response

Emily Thornberry Excerpts

Thursday 21st October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I gather there may be a point of order. Did somebody wish to raise a point of order? We need to move on. There should be a statement from the Secretary of State.

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Ah—a point of order!

[Emily Thornberry]

Can you advise me how best to deal with the stress levels created by this morning’s timetable? I do not mean to complain—I am a big girl—but, quite frankly, I had departmental questions this morning, we heard on the grapevine that there was going to be a statement on the Trade and Agriculture Commission, for which we have been waiting for more than six months, and we also heard last night that there was going to be a deal with New Zealand.

I got a copy of the Government statement on the deal with New Zealand at six minutes past 10 this morning, when I was obviously on my feet dealing with departmental questions here. I do not complain about where my office is, as I have a wonderful office, but it does take quite a long time to get to it. I need to get to it, pick up the statement that has been given to me by the Government, read it, write what I am going to say, make sure that it is only half the length of the statement and then come back.

I also want to make reference, of course, to the Trade and Agriculture Commission, which the Government have said is a really important part of any future deal that they negotiate, because of the grave concerns that farmers have about their future business, to which the TAC is supposed to be part of the remedy. We got a written ministerial statement, which I received 20 minutes ago while running back from my office. [Laughter.] I got a ministerial statement at six minutes past 10. We have to put all those things together. Although in many ways it is funny, if I was a frontline farmer I would not find this funny at all.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I thank the right hon. Lady for that point of order. I very much suspect that the Secretary of State should also thank the right hon. Lady for that point of order. We have had some examples this morning of the way in which not to do business in this House. It is vital that Secretaries of State ensure that they are here in good time for their statements. I think that expresses the opinion of all in this House. Stress levels have been raised by this, so the best thing now is to move on as quickly as possible. I am sure that the International Trade Secretary will want to apologise—I call her to make her statement.

Junior Doctors’ Contracts

Emily Thornberry Excerpts

Wednesday 28th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Heidi Alexander]

I do agree. I was talking about a seven-day NHS. A truly 24/7 NHS does not just mean consultants being more readily available; it means 24/7 access to diagnostic tests, social care, occupational therapists—the list goes on. If the Secretary of State has a magic pot of money to pay for all that, bearing it in mind that the NHS can barely pay for the work that it is currently doing, I am all ears. If his plan is to deliver seven-day services by spreading existing services more thinly, he should come clean and say so.

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend makes a very powerful speech. I bring her back to an earlier point which needs emphasising. At the moment trusts have to provide rosters that are not only fair but safe, so that junior doctors get time off. Now it seems that trusts will no longer have to pay attention to those rules and will no longer be fined if they do not follow them.

[Heidi Alexander]

There are very serious concerns about the proposed new contract, and my hon. Friend is right to highlight them.

The sad thing is that it did not have to be this way. Instead of using the dispute with junior doctors to suit his own political ends, the Health Secretary should have listened. He should have understood the depth and strength of concern before it got to the point where junior doctors feel as though they are the first line of defence in a fight for the future of the NHS. Instead of telling junior doctors that the BMA was misleading them, he should have respected their intelligence and responded to their concerns. At the very least, he should have heeded the words of the present Prime Minister, who said this about junior doctors when addressing a rally in 2007:

“There’s a simple truth at the heart of this: you came into the NHS not because you wanted to get rich or famous, but because you have a vocation about curing the ill, about serving your community.”

The Prime Minister went on to say in his conference speech a few days later:

“I will never forget walking on the streets of London marching with 10,000 junior doctors who felt like they were being treated like cogs in a machine rather than professionals with a vocation to go out and save lives”.

It is time the Health Secretary started treating junior doctors like the intelligent professionals they are. When I spoke at the junior doctors rally in London 10 days ago, I delivered a message for the Health Secretary. He was not working that Saturday so I repeat it for him now: stop the high-handed demands, show you are prepared to compromise and put patients before politics.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hunt]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The fact is that this is a package designed to ensure that we eliminate the weekend effect, and it involves both junior doctors and consultants, because they both have their part to play.

[Emily Thornberry]

Will the Secretary of State give way?

[Mr Hunt]

I am going to make some progress before taking any further interventions.

The question for a Government and for a Health Secretary is this: when we are faced with this overwhelming evidence—six studies in five years—should we take action or ignore it? We are taking action. That is why in July I announced that we will be changing the contracts for both consultants and junior doctors as part of a package of measures to eliminate the weekend effect. If we believe in the NHS, and if we want it to be there for everyone, whatever their background or circumstances, we must be able to offer every NHS patient the promise of the same high-quality care, whichever day of the week they need it.

Let me set out for the House what I have proposed. We announced ambitious plans to roll out seven-day services across the country, with better weekend staffing across medical, diagnostic and support services in hospitals, as well as better integration with social care and seven-day GP access. That will reach a quarter of the population by March 2017, and the whole country by 2020. For consultants, we proposed an end to the right to opt out of weekend working, replacing it with a maximum obligation to work one weekend in four. To its credit, the BMA’s consultants committee has agreed to negotiate on that.

For junior doctors, we proposed to reduce the high overtime and weekend rates, which prevent hospitals from rostering enough staff at weekend, and increase basic pay to compensate. We have made a commitment that the pay bill as a whole would not be reduced, and today I can confirm that not a single junior doctor working within the legal limits for hours will have their pay cut, because this is about patient care, not saving money. Incidentally, I made it clear to the BMA at the beginning of September that that was a possible outcome of negotiations, in an attempt to encourage it to return to the negotiating table. Rather than negotiating, it chose to wind up its own members and create a huge amount of unnecessary anger.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hunt]

There is no reason whatsoever. What was strikingly absent from the shadow Health Secretary’s comments was an entreaty to the BMA asking it to come and negotiate. Labour Members can play a constructive role in this, but so far they have declined to do so.

[Emily Thornberry]

Is the right hon. Gentleman going to continue with his plan to change the rules so that trusts that insist on doctors working unsafe hours can no longer be fined for doing so? It will help if he can assure us that those rules will continue and trusts will be fined if they break them.

[Mr Hunt]

They are not fines; they are perverse incentives to doctors to work unsafe hours. We want to go one better than that. We propose to stop hospitals requiring doctors to work five nights in a row or six long days in a row, and to bring down the maximum number of hours that hospitals can ask a doctor to work in any one week. On top of that, we have imposed the toughest hospital regime of any country anywhere in the world that comes down very hard on hospitals that are not providing safe care.

NHS Reform

Emily Thornberry Excerpts

Thursday 16th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hunt]

I thank my hon. Friend for his support for that Bill. I hope that plans that NHS England will announce shortly about how we can improve early cancer detection will give him much encouragement. He will see that some of the things that he is campaigning for are actually going to happen.

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

Everyone supports seven-day-a-week, 24-hour NHS care—who would not? But the bottom line is that there are insufficient resources and insufficient people at the moment for it to be possible to deliver those services. For the Secretary of State to try to blame the health unions for that is not fair, and there are people behind that. The tone of the statement that the Secretary of State made this morning at the King’s Fund has already caused alarm among GPs, and Maureen Baker, chair of the Royal College of General Practitioners, said that this announcement

“will sound…alarm bells for hardworking GPs who fear we will be next in line—even though we are already being pushed to our limits in trying to provide a safe five-day”

a week

“service for our patients.”

[Mr Hunt]

I do not blame doctors; I do not blame the unions. I blame Ministers from the hon. Lady’s Government who gave consultants an opt-out at weekends that has had a catastrophic impact on patient care. I am delighted that she supports seven-day care, but it was not in the Labour manifesto; it was in the Conservative manifesto, and we are putting in extra money—£5.5 billion more than Labour was promising—to ensure that we can pay for it.

Oral Answers to Questions

Emily Thornberry Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

The right hon. Gentleman talks about access to GPs. Will he wait a moment and think about Islington South, where this month we have three GP surgeries closing because our GPs have all resigned? Given the changes in the funding formula that this Government have overseen, will he meet a group of inner-London MPs to talk about our grave concerns about the change to funding and the lack of resources available to GPs?

[Mr Hunt]

I am happy to ensure that inner-London MPs have a meeting with the Minister to discuss those issues. The underfunding of general practice has been an historical problem, because we have had very strong hospital targets, which have tended to suck resources into the acute sector and away from out-of-hospital care. We want to put that right.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hunt]

I am very aware of the problems at Broomfield hospital. The Care Quality Commission has used its enforcement powers to impose an urgent condition on the trust. We will be following it closely, but we need to see urgent change there.

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

T8. I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for agreeing to meet me and some inner- London MPs to discuss the crisis of GPs in Islington and the surrounding area. In preparation for that meeting, will he look very carefully at the funding formula? It has changed, which means that resources have moved out of inner London to areas such as Bournemouth, where there are more older people. We need to look very carefully at that. Three surgeries have closed in Islington.

[Mr Hunt]

Of course we will look at the funding formula, but it needs to be fair to the whole country. The hon. Lady’s area is not the only one facing pressures in the GP system. Our ambition is to solve the problem everywhere.

NHS (Government Spending)

Emily Thornberry Excerpts

Wednesday 28th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

Let me begin by thanking the Minister for his contribution today—particularly as he is a doctor. I also thank him for helping those of us with our Tory NHS debate bingo cards to show that he has used all the words we were expecting—“weaponise”, “Wales”, “long-term economic plan”—and for the additional benefit of sharing his understanding of the international banking crash, which is that it was Mr Brown shovelling money out of the back windows at Lehman Brothers that caused the entire world economy to crash.

Let me move on to perhaps a much more important point. How are we going to fund the national health service in the future? What the Minister did not address—which is a grave disappointment—were some of the matters in the motion that we are supposed to be debating. My constituents prioritise the NHS probably over everything else. For them, it is all about our working together as one community and looking after everyone: no one is more important than anyone else; we all stick together; we pay our taxes and support the weakest; and all of us should be able to get world-class health care. We are very proud of the national health service, which has delivered that. However, my constituents are profoundly concerned about what is going to happen in the future. Can the national health service survive another five years of a Tory Government? The answer they come to very rapidly is no.

The question is a simple one. How can the Prime Minister stand up at the Tory party conference and say, “We’re going to make £7 billion worth of tax cuts,” and not tell us where the money is coming from? How can the Prime Minister or the Chancellor of the Exchequer say that state spending is going to decline to the level it was in the 1930s, when in the 1930s we did not have a national health service? How does that work? How do we square that circle? Without answers to profoundly important questions such as those, the public simply say, “We don’t trust you with the most precious thing we have as part of our British identity. We want to be able to have a national health service that will hold us together.” How can the NHS be safe in the hands of this Government?

[Dr Poulter]

rose—

[Emily Thornberry]

I give way to the doctor.

[Dr Poulter]

The hon. Lady will of course be aware that our plans for public spending will only put it back to the level it was in 2002, under the previous Labour Government, which is hardly the bleak picture she paints. At the same time, we will be able to invest money in our NHS.

[Emily Thornberry]

I still do not understand why, therefore, the Office for Budget Responsibility says that the percentage of state spending will be at the level it was in the 1930s. In the end, although the Minister is a doctor, I would prefer to take the word of the Office for Budget Responsibility. Indeed, I urge the Minister to speak again to his party leader and say to him, “When we come to make manifesto commitments, let’s run them past the Office for Budget Responsibility,” so that the public know whom they can trust on money and particularly on the NHS.

I remember serving on the Health and Social Care Bill Committee for many, many weeks—months, in fact; indeed, I believe it was almost a year of my life. I remember my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) and I pleading with the Government not to go ahead—not to waste time and money on a top-down reorganisation; not to waste people’s heart and soul on a reorganisation of the national health service in a way that was unnecessary. We said, “All you’re doing is opening the door to privatisation. What you are doing is wrong for the national health service. You must stop. You must think again.” And there was indeed a pause—a pause for an awful lot of spinning—but the Government still forced through a profound reorganisation of the national health service that has allowed the market to come into the NHS and wasted £3 billion.

We also said that if we needed to look again—and we did—at making our national health service appropriate for the 21st century, we should look at how to bring social care and health together. It is difficult, because social care is largely provided by local authorities. Very often it is means-tested and provided locally, with local accountability, whereas the national health service was much more nationally accountable, had much better funds and was not means-tested. However, without those two things moving and working together, we cannot have proper health care in our country, because—and we all know this—most people who use the national health service are elderly. They come to A and E in crisis, and once they are in they are unable to get out again. It is demeaning. It is humiliating. It is something that all of us in the Chamber will face unless something is done.

People must be supported in the community so that they are able to live their lives as healthily as possible—yes, fighting off three or four long-term conditions, but still as healthily as possible. However, while this Government have been cutting the money to local authorities—it is being shovelled out the back door by Eric Pickles—the Health team have been saying, “Oh, it’s all right: we’re giving more money to social care.” But the Government know—and all of us who have friends, relatives or constituents who are using social care know—that there is not enough of it around. Old ladies are getting up and being taken out of bed and are sitting in their chair three hours later than they were before. They are getting visits of 15 minutes. They are not being looked after properly. They have the choice between having a bath and having a meal. In the 21st century, in one of the richest countries in the world, that is a disgrace. How can we really be looking properly at the future of the health service and allowing that to happen? Of course, if people are kept in bed until 11 o’clock in the morning and then being put back to bed at 5 o’clock in the evening, they will become unhealthy. They will end up in A and E in crisis and they will not be able to get out again.

More and more local authorities are cutting back on social care and are giving social care only to those in the most acute need. In the time I have left—I do not have very long, so I am going to rattle through—I want to say what Islington does. Despite having the sixth-worst levels of child poverty in the entire country and one of the worst mental health records in the country, Islington provides social care on a level of which we should be proud. It provides social care at moderate levels. It is working with Whittington Health. The hospital in my constituency is working with the local authority, providing health in the community. The hospital sends people out; we have GPs working in the hospital. It is a model on which I hope the next Government’s—ours—model for proper health and social care will be based: the idea of people working together, looking at the whole person, giving the health service time to care and look after people properly, and giving people the right to die at home with dignity and support.

I want to use the 30 seconds I have left to give due credit to Camden health services for allowing my father-in-law to die at home with true dignity and proper palliative care. It gave him the choice to die in his bed, next to his wife, for which I am profoundly grateful. I know that he was very privileged in being allowed to do that, because up and down the country that is not being allowed. It saved money, gave him what he wanted and gave him pride. Why are we not dealing with problems like that, instead of introducing the private market into our precious national health service?

Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust

Emily Thornberry Excerpts

Tuesday 19th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hunt]

This is the heart of the change that we are making this year. My hon. Friend and I know exactly how well all the schools in our constituencies are doing, because there are transparent, independent Ofsted ratings, but we do not know how well our local hospitals are doing. We need an expert to go in and look at hospitals and then tell us, in language that non-clinicians can understand, just how well they are doing, as well as what needs to change when they are not doing well. We will get that with the new chief inspector of hospitals.

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

I was struck by the Secretary of State saying that cruelty became normal in the NHS. I do not agree with him and I do not think that the public believe that cruelty has become the norm in the NHS. Most people join the NHS as a calling or a public duty: they believe in kindness and the importance of care.

It seems to me that one of the reasons for cruelty—and it does happen—is the stress of under-staffing. I understand that, as a result of the report, the Secretary of State will publish safe staffing levels ward by ward, but that he will not enforce them. The question that the public want answered is why. How can he, as Secretary of State, be happy to know that wards up and down the country are under-staffed and unsafe, and that he is not doing anything about it?

[Mr Hunt]

We have had a very bipartisan discussion this afternoon, so I am slightly disappointed that the hon. Lady is twisting my words. I did not say that cruelty became the norm everywhere in the NHS; I said that in places such as Mid Staffs cruelty became normal. If she reads the Francis report, she will find that that is the case.

Trying to duck or run away from that fact is what got us into a great deal of trouble, because we did not deal with the issues in Mid Staffs nearly as quickly as we should have done. On staffing levels, we are doing something that did not happen before. When her Government were in power, we did not know where staffing was unsafe, but now we will know and can do something about it.

Hospital Mortality Rates

Emily Thornberry Excerpts

Tuesday 16th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hunt]

I would be delighted to do that. I try to visit somewhere on the front line in the NHS every week, making sure I do not just visit the best places; I visit places that have problems and places like Colchester hospital which are improving—I am delighted that Sir Bruce’s report recognised that.

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State began his statement with an alarming story about patients being left unmonitored on trolleys—I understand that took place at Tameside hospital. Does he agree that there may be a connection between that and the fact that there are 128 fewer nurses, midwives and health visitors in that hospital than there were in 2010? Given that the previous Government flagged up that hospital as one of particular concern, was he watching it to make sure that there were no cuts in nursing staff there?

[Mr Hunt]

As I have said many times, where there is not safe staffing we need to put that right. As I have also said, there are 8,000 more front-line staff under this Government than there were when the hon. Lady’s Government were in power. But those are not the only issues; we also need to address issues of leadership, of systems, which we talked about, and of clinical effectiveness. We need to sort out all those. On staffing numbers, I would just point out that plenty of hospitals under equivalent financial pressures are managing to deliver outstanding care, so a lot of this is about getting the right leadership in place at a board level.

NHS Risk Register

Emily Thornberry Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend is safely in Dover, a long way from Wales, when he says these things, but I go to Wales and he is absolutely right. It is staggering. The right hon. Member for Leigh and his colleagues can stand there and say, “Oh, well, you know, it’s only”—what is it?—“8% of patients who are not being seen within 18 weeks.” In Wales it is 32% of patients who are not being seen—

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

In Wales!

[Mr Lansley]

If the hon. Lady wants more, I will give her more. In this country—in England—we are increasing the NHS budget, despite the fact that her right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh said it would be irresponsible of us to do so. We are increasing the NHS budget in this Parliament in real terms each year. In Wales—

[Emily Thornberry]

Hooray!

[Mr Lansley]

Perhaps the hon. Lady ought to talk to her friends from Wales, because she is deriding Wales. The Wales Audit Office said that the Labour Government there were going to cut the NHS budget in Wales by over 6% in the course of this Parliament. The Wales Audit Office said that on present trends, by 2014-15—before the next election—expenditure on the NHS would be lower in Wales, under Labour, than in any other part of the United Kingdom. Come the next election, it will be Labour that has to defend its neglect of the NHS in Wales, while we in the coalition Government will be able, together, to defend and promote our stewardship of the NHS, including resources for the NHS.

Health and Social Care (Re-committed) Bill

Emily Thornberry Excerpts

Wednesday 7th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Nadine Dorries]

Four weeks ago I was not sure whether I would get to the point where I could speak in the Chamber today. This has been a long and hot-under-the-collar summer. Following my announcement of my intention to table the amendment, I have been threatened with being throttled, car-bombed, burned alive and a host of other distasteful and unpleasant ways in which I would meet my end.

I shall not go into detail about any of these responses to my amendment. Needless to say, some of them involved bodily functions to a graphic degree, and some of the scatological messages were unbelievable. I will not repeat the bile that has poured into my inbox every day. I do not think there is anything that I or my staff could be threatened with, or that we could read or be told now, that would elicit any shock from us. There is nothing worse that we could hear.

Before I go into the detail of the amendment, I shall talk about a significant and substantial shift as a result of the amendment. It has always been the tradition of the House that abortion issues have been discussed and debated in the Chamber and the media have commented on what happened, usually in a reasonable way. But the amendment has changed the game for ever. All Members in all parts of the House know, particularly from the 2008 debate, that we debate with passion. I would say that the 2008 debate was one of the best debates of the previous Parliament. However, we all remain courteous and friendly with each other following the debates. The usual parliamentary knock-about and the usual games take place—I shall say more about that in relation to the amendment in a moment—but the debate usually takes place here and the media comment on what happens here as it happens.

I have no greater opponent in the House on this issue than the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman). In 2008 she was the whipper-in and the mover behind what happened in that debate, but I have no greater respect for almost any other woman in the House than I do for her. I hugely respect what she has achieved for women and humanity, and I know that she approaches the issue honourably, as I hope I do. It is incredibly sad, therefore, that my summer has been made so difficult not by Opposition Members, who have all been incredibly quiet, but by the nastiness and the response of the left-wing media and union-funded organisations.

The past four weeks have been incredibly difficult. The campaign against the amendment has been co-ordinated by an organisation known as Abortion Rights, which is funded by Unison and a number of other small unions. It also received membership contributions, but, as I was told in a meeting with the organisation, it is largely funded by the unions and Unison is the biggest contributor. [Interruption.] I am not saying that every penny is not accountable; I am just informing the House that the campaign has been funded by the unions. I do not think that there is a problem with that.

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

Who funds yours?

[Nadine Dorries]

I will tell the hon. Lady exactly who funds my campaign—nobody. Neither I nor my office has received a single penny. Here, to me, is the disadvantage of the amendment. The unions can contact Members’ constituents and ask them to e-mail individual MPs, but I cannot afford to promote the amendment in that way. The press barons, whom the unions have fed with their response to the amendment, can pour what they want into the newspapers, but I cannot. What we have seen is an absolute divide.