Benefit Sanctions

Emily Thornberry Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd December 2015 Westminster Hall

[Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. I thank the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray) for bringing the constantly relevant issue of benefit sanctions to Westminster Hall today. I am afraid that, in the time I have, I will barely be able to scratch the surface of trying to understand the Government’s approach to sanctions, which needs a comprehensive mauling. I do not have time to do a lot, but I will give it a try.

Before we can decide whether a system is fit for purpose —this applies to any policy—we first need to establish what it intends to achieve. The official Department for Work and Pensions line is that the system will help “motivate” people to look for work. Though Ministers insist that their approach to sanctions is backed up by evidence, it has never been quite clear where their supposed evidence is. It certainly does not come from the Department itself.

Recently, when I asked Ministers for statistics on the number of people who have moved into work after being sanctioned, they admitted that they had no idea. I refer the officials to question 11860, which I asked on 14 October and was answered on 21 October. Presumably there are therefore other reasons for their apparent obsession with the conspicuously “tough” approach brought in with the new rules, which are like sanctions on steroids. They were introduced in 2012 and our suspicions should have been raised when the DWP sent out press releases boasting of the record numbers of people being sanctioned.

In a typical release last year, the then Employment Minister, now unemployed—many in Wirral West would say deservedly—Esther McVey presented those figures as evidence that the Government were

“ending the something for nothing culture.”

If this system is about anything more than political posturing, the Government are doing an awfully good job of hiding it. After all, their own impact assessment for the 2012 changes acknowledged that there simply was not evidence to show that harsher sanctions would actually lead to more people moving into work. What we now know, thanks to a study published not by the Department but by academics from the Universities of Oxford and London in January, is that many of those who were sanctioned between 2011 and 2014 stopped claiming benefits altogether, but just 20% did that because they had found work.

Sanctions not only do not help people get into work, but make that much more difficult. That is especially true for those most in need of help with the transition from unemployment into work. People with mental health problems, for example, now make up a majority of people in the work-related activity group within ESA. In a survey conducted by Mind last year, 83% of people in that group said that the so-called help they had received, either from jobcentres or Work programme providers, had actually made their mental health worse, and 76% said that their experiences caused them to feel even less able to work than before. We have those findings on the one hand and on the other we have a sixfold increase in the number of sanctions for people on ESA.

The Government should go beyond their rhetoric and take a good hard look at the impact that these sanctions are having in the real world. Of course, most of us are already painfully aware of the reality behind that rhetoric. We have seen the evidence not just in our constituency surgeries, but in the ever-growing lines of people queuing outside our local food banks.

According to the Trussell Trust, since the new regime was introduced in 2012, 83% of food banks have seen an increase in the number of people urgently needing their help. We all acknowledge the extraordinarily valuable service that food banks provide in our local communities, especially to the most vulnerable, but that is not the only reason we have to be grateful for the Trussell Trust’s work: in recent years, it has scrupulously documented the stories people tell when they go to food banks, explaining why they need help. That has made an extremely important contribution to the wider sanctions policy debate.

The record compiled by the Trussell Trust provides the most comprehensive document we have had to date of the nastiness and ineffectiveness of the Government’s approach. Examples from food banks across the country include: sanctions in Richmond for missing appointments, despite not having enough money for the bus fare; sanctions in Birmingham for not providing enough evidence of applying for jobs online, even when the person involved told them they could not use a computer; sanctions in Nottingham for missing appointments to attend funerals and for visiting a loved one in hospital; and sanctions in Crosby for missing an appointment because the claimant was going to a job interview—an irony that seems to be lost on Ministers. If there is any logic or reason behind any of that, I simply cannot see it.

The Labour party agrees with the Scottish nationalists on this issue. It is not that we do not believe that there should be some form of conditionality behind jobseekers obtaining benefits, but frankly, the sanctions regime has gone far too far. Such stories—there are plenty of them, and plenty more where they came from—make a mockery of the Government’s claim that sanctions apply only to those who fail to “play by the rules” or who are

“wilfully rejecting support for no good reason”

as the former Employment Minister used to say.

It should now be clear to anyone capable of thinking straight on sanctions that the entire system is so fundamentally broken that it is almost beyond repair. We urgently need a root-and-branch reform, and we can do that only on the basis of evidence. We therefore ask yet again, as does the Work and Pensions Committee, for a full and independent review to consider the fundamental questions of what these sanctions are supposed to achieve, whether they are working and, even if they are, how much they are costing.

That is what my colleagues and I have pushed for repeatedly during recent debates on the Welfare Reform and Work Bill. As the Bill moved through the Commons, we tabled an amendment to it in Committee and on the Floor of the House that would have forced the Government to set up a comprehensive independent review to address those issues. Every single Member on the Government Benches voted against establishing such a review. I asked the Minister this question at the time, and I will ask her again today: if the Government are so sure of their ground when it comes to sanctions, why are they so frightened of an independent review? Exactly what are they afraid of? I am still waiting for an answer to that question, but I am not holding my breath.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

--- Later in debate ---

[Philip Boswell]

Sorry; I was cutting out large sections of my speech, but I will be more ardent in my efforts.

[Emily Thornberry]

On a point of order, Ms Dorries. I do not know if this will help with your chairing, but may I make it clear that the Labour party sees entirely eye to eye with the Scottish nationalists on this issue? There is unlikely to be anything they raise that I would want to argue with them about.

[Nadine Dorries (in the Chair)]

Thank you very much for that.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Minister for Employment (Priti Patel)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Dorries. I congratulate the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Neil Gray) on securing the debate, because it not only allows all Members to reflect their reviews on this important issue, but gives us a chance to discuss conditionality alongside full employment and how we can encourage and support people back into work. The hon. Gentleman raised points that we have discussed previously. As he is a new spokesman for his party, I congratulate him on that and I look forward to working with him.

The debate has been wide-ranging, but I would like to start by restating the importance of conditionality and the role that that plays in our welfare system, and I will outline the principles behind the use of sanctions as part of the approach to help move people into employment. The hon. Gentleman and all hon. Members have made important points about the system, and I will outline some of the recent developments and the improvements that we are making following the recent report on sanctions by the Select Committee on Work and Pensions as well as the independent Oakley review.

The role of conditionality is best highlighted by the independent Oakley review, which said that sanctions are

“a key element of the mutual obligation that underpins both the effectiveness and fairness of the social security system.”

The words “effectiveness” and “fairness” are particularly relevant, because we know from claimants that there is a positive impact on behaviour. Nearly three quarters of people on jobseeker’s allowance and more than 60% of those on employment and support allowance say that sanctions play a role in helping them to understand the system. They have the claimant commitment in particular, but it helps when it comes to seeking employment and it provides a framework for them. The number of sanctions has fallen by around 40% in the last year, and ESA sanctions have stabilised as well. We should recognise the point about mutual obligation that the Oakley review describes and that sanctions can provide the right support for people to move into employment.

[Emily Thornberry]

I do not really understand what the Minister is saying. Perhaps she can help me by explaining it a little more. Is she saying that claimants say that it is helpful for them to have sanctions and that without sanctions, they would not understand what the system was?

[Priti Patel]

We know from claimants that the principle of conditionality and the claimant commitment have a positive impact on behaviour. Nearly three quarters of people on JSA and over 60% of those on ESA say that sanctions make it very clear to them that they will follow the rules, in terms of the claimant commitment and their discussions with work coaches. Those rules will also help them to gain employment, so they understand the discussions and dialogue that take place with them with regard to conditionality.

--- Later in debate ---

[Priti Patel]

As I said, a sanctions process is in place. It is a proper process that includes the claimant from the start, so the claimant is fully engaged in the process, the discussions and the claimant commitment or the action plan, which clearly states what is expected of them.

On the overturning of sanctions and appeals, I cannot comment on individual cases, but I emphasise that the claimant commitment and the action plan are undertaken with the claimant from the start. The parameters are there. The individual knows exactly what is required of them. Importantly, it is a two-way process, with work coaches and the jobcentre. They set out not only what the claimant commitment is and what is expected from the individual, but importantly, the support that they will provide to that individual.

I know that a few cases were highlighted. The hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Margaret Ferrier) mentioned a couple of cases. I am very happy to look into those, if she would like to share them with me after the debate, and to work through those individual cases with her. I will come on to the point made by the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts about individuals with particular conditions, such as mental health conditions, or with caring responsibilities or disabilities. Individuals have different circumstances, as we all recognise. It is absolutely right that individual circumstances, conditions and responsibilities are taken into consideration and that claimants are given a full opportunity to provide the good reason for not complying when a decision is made by the decision maker.

Coming back to the point about process, there is, of course, the opportunity to have a mandatory reconsideration, whereby there is a further opportunity, on an individual basis, to provide information and for more facts to be considered.

[Emily Thornberry]

The Minister is being very generous in taking as many interventions as she has. She has moved back to process, on which I wanted to ask her a question. She said that the number of sanctions is going down, but a large number of people are moving on to universal credit, and the Department for Work and Pensions does not publish statistics for those who have been sanctioned on universal credit, as I understand it. Will the DWP undertake to start publishing statistics on people who have been sanctioned who are getting universal credit?

[Priti Patel]

If I may, I will come back to the hon. Lady on that point. She will be fully aware that universal credit is being rolled out and will be rolled out fully by April next year. However, I will come back to her on the point about UC and sanctions.

I was making the point about the process and support for claimants with health conditions. In addition to looking at any other cases that Members would like to raise with me, I make the point that jobcentre staff are trained to support claimants with health conditions, and mental health conditions in particular, during their job search and have access to more expert advice if that is needed. With that, we are ensuring that safeguarding measures are put in place to protect vulnerable claimants, particularly ESA claimants, with mental health conditions. We have a process and a system whereby ESA claimants, when engaged with the jobcentre, can receive a home visit from a visiting officer, should that be required. It is also fair to make the point that, with the Work programme, providers must make every attempt to engage on a face-to-face level if they identify a claimant as vulnerable.

The debate gives me the opportunity to raise with the House the fact that for mental health claimants in particular, the Government have outlined a new joint unit, very much focused on the Department of Health working with the DWP, looking at individuals with health conditions and health barriers—mental health being one of them—and at how we can provide more tailored and integrated support to help those claimants, many of whom, it is fair to say, are on employment and support allowance and are furthest away from the labour market.

More than 60% of ESA claimants say publicly and frequently that they want to work, but we need to find the right journey and support for them to get back into work. This Government have just started that important work through the new joint health and work unit of the two Departments. That is a positive step forward, and I look forward to working with all right hon. and hon. Members to see how we can advance.

The hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts mentioned the yellow card early warning system, which was announced in response to a recommendation by the Work and Pensions Committee in its recent report on sanctions. Its Chair, the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Frank Field), welcomed our response and, importantly, our willingness to engage with the Committee to ensure that the conditionality system works as it should. In our response to the Committee, we announced that we would trial a sanctions warning system giving claimants a further two weeks to provide evidence of good reason before a decision is made. It is important that that will strike the right balance between fairness and conditionality. We intend the trial to operate in Scotland from March 2016 and to run for approximately five months. A full evaluation of the trial will be undertaken, and the findings will be available from autumn 2016. As I said, I am happy to discuss the findings and the roll-out as it continues.

We have responded positively to the independent Oakley review. As a result, we have worked with behavioural insight experts to enhance our engagement, our approach and the way in which we communicate sanctions. We have published a JSA sanctions fact sheet through Government channels; we are improving the clarity of the JSA and ESA hardship application process; and we are making improvements to the payment process to ensure that payments are made within three days. We are very clear about that, as we stated in our response to the Work and Pensions Committee. We have accepted all 17 of the Oakley recommendations to improve the process, and we will undertake a number of improvements to JSA and ESA sanctions. The Chair of the Select Committee made it clear that he is pleased that the Government accepted its approach and many of its comments on sanctions, and particularly our willingness to change.

Food banks have been mentioned. We are trialling the DWP working with food banks in Manchester, and we will report back on the observations from that.

In conclusion, the employment support offered by jobcentres has been based on conditionality, but it has also been personalised to help people into employment with wide-ranging provision of skills and employability support. There are clear expectations on people under the conditionality system, such as work search expectations, which we have touched on in the debate. A key part of our employment and support programme is the principle of conditionality, and we will keep our sanctions process under constant review to ensure that it continues to function effectively and fairly. We will also work with the Work and Pensions Committee, and we will take on board the views and comments that have been aired this afternoon.