Conversion Practices (Prohibition) Bill

Elliot Colburn Excerpts

2nd reading
Friday 1st March 2024 Commons Chamber

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

The hon. Member says exactly the right word: “most”, but not all. Therapists who take a different approach will join a different organisation and get the same protection, because they will be following that organisation’s regulatory approach. In fact, the UK Council for Psychotherapy recently released a statement saying that exploratory therapy is an acceptable form of practice within the requirement of not having a “predetermined purpose”. The Bill does not support or prevent different forms of care, such as gender affirming or exploratory care. That is for the regulatory bodies to determine. What the Bill does is stop a “predetermined purpose” of offering change.

Some people have asked me to remove the “pre-determined” requirement for the health sector. They claim that it is circular and already the basis of the Bill, and that we do not need it. But without it, the chilling effect that many health practitioners feel in this area—hence they are leaving it—would continue. The Bill will allow practitioners to explore all forms of care, while having a framework to respond to someone who says, “You must say that I am this at the end of my therapy.” Practitioners can now say, “I cannot do that under law. I have to explore. I have to work with you and support you.” That is what therapists should do, that is what they want to do, but at the moment, that is what they are struggling to do.

This is a developing field and we need a framework that allows new evidence to be heard. Some have claimed that we should wait for the Cass report or that we should rule out some sorts of care. That would be dangerous. The Cass report will not be the end of the discussion of children and transgender. One sort of care might be useful for one group of people but not for another. It is up to the regulated bodies to produce guidelines. Such evidence should be treated by them, not deliberated here in the House.

[Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con)]

The hon. Member is giving a powerful speech. On the Cass review, does he want to highlight the fact that Dr Hilary Cass has said that absolutely nothing in her work should stop a conversion practices Bill going through this place?

[Lloyd Russell-Moyle]

Exactly. I very much welcome that statement. In fact, the Bill produces a framework that Dr Cass’s review can inform as things change and move forward.

People who are not health practitioners but assist a person undergoing a regulated course of treatment, such as a receptionists or drivers, are protected under the Bill. If someone is questioning, exploring or developing coping skills—a role often taken by teachers or youth workers, which is my previous profession—they will receive clarity on the range of support they can offer.

One of the most controversial areas in the Government’s Bill was how it dealt with parents. It is my view that parents have a darn hard life already raising their children and we should not create new burdens for them. The Bill says that if someone is exercising parental responsibility and considers the welfare of their child as paramount, nothing they do will be an offence under the Bill. We refer to the Children Act 1989 and use the language in well-established bodies of law. We should not be messing with how children are treated in this way.

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[Chris Green]

I agree. The jeopardy for that individual is substantial. That issue has not been covered, and they are not protected under the legislation as it stands. There is a significant aspect to this matter about free will and decision making. If a young person is looking to go down a certain route—again, the transformation to someone’s life if they transition is profound and, in many ways, irreversible—perhaps the individual wants to be certain that the young person is making the right decision. How can someone be certain they are making the right decision? One way is by asking the young person challenging questions, such as, “Are you doing the right thing for the right reason? Can you live with the consequences of it? Have you really though it through?” I thought this Chamber represented that idea of debate and challenge, and of questioning, “Are you really intent on doing this? Do you really want to go down this track? Before you take any drugs, go to a clinic to get that support or have any surgery, have you actively considered all the issues and implications of what you are doing?”

[Elliot Colburn]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that we have to give space for that free discussion. Current NHS data suggests that people referred to gender identity clinics will take about 10 years to be seen. Is 10 years enough time for someone to be sure they have made the right decision?

[Chris Green]

One concern is the requirement almost for affirmation. In the context of the structures in society and the expectations on people if the legislation passes, and the framing in which parents, families and others are allowed to discuss the matter with their own children, the route that people go down starts a long time before they get to the stage that my hon. Friend mentions. We need to understand this and have an open discussion right at the beginning, rather than years down the line.

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[Elliot Colburn (Carshalton and Wallington) (Con)]

I gently suggest to the hon. Member for Canterbury (Rosie Duffield) that if she genuinely thinks that those on her side of the debate are the only ones who get abuse on social media, she should look at the treatment of LGBT+ politicians in this country when we dare to speak out about these issues. She is certainly not alone. I do not agree for one minute that the abuse that she or anyone who holds her views gets is acceptable. I have often spoken in this place about the toxicity surrounding these discussions and debates, which I believe has only grown with the rise of social media. I absolutely agree with her on that point, but we have a duty not to feed into the toxicity. We are not supporting the Bill because we think that this is a social media contest—we know full well that we would not win—but the evidence is clear.

I want to pick up on the point, made in the previous speech, that there is no evidence that conversion therapy is happening, because we have ample evidence from the Government-commissioned data that it is happening. In 2018, 108,000 people responded to a survey, and 7% of them had undergone or been offered conversion therapy. Some 13% of trans respondents had undergone or been offered conversion therapy. Fifty-one per cent said that it was conducted by faith groups, and 19% said that it was carried out by healthcare or medical professionals.

[Miriam Cates]

In the survey to which my hon. Friend refers, what definition of “conversion therapy” was put to respondents?

[Elliot Colburn]

As my hon. Friend well knows, there was no definition offered at the time, but that is exactly what this Bill attempts to do: to bring forward a definition.

I want to pick up on a point that has been made a number of times. A number of colleagues have suggested that there is an epidemic of people being forced to be gay or being forced to be trans. This is a two-way Bill —it does it in both directions.

[Neale Hanvey]

Does the data that the hon. Gentleman refers to come from the self-referral survey administered at Pride marches? That is not really research but a survey. Does he think that a survey conducted in that way is sufficient to inform legislation?

[Elliot Colburn]

The survey was only the start. It has been backed up by research commissioned by the Government two years ago. It has also been backed up by a number of independent organisations, including the NSPCC, Mind and Galop, which have had calls about it. We have the data to show it is happening. The idea that people would phone a support service such as the NSPCC and pretend that they are being offered conversion therapy is, I am afraid, for the birds.

I agree with the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) about how we are perceived in this place. I thought back to when this House debated same-sex marriage in 2012. I listened to the debate, obviously not as a Member of Parliament, and I remember how powerless I felt then as a young gay man having my future and my rights discussed by a group of people. I had nothing to do but sit and watch and listen to some awful things. As the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Lloyd Russell-Moyle) said, that is necessary in a free and democratic society. The Bill does not seek to curtail free expression via legitimate conversations, but we have evidence that harm is being done to people and we do not have the laws in place to prevent it.

[Miriam Cates]

I thank my hon. Friend for being so generous in taking another intervention. He talked about evidence and referred to the survey, which he admitted contained no definition of conversion therapy. We have heard how many different definitions of conversion therapy there could be, and how many different definitions we all hold, from the most extreme, awful abuse, which is already illegal, to talking therapies and persuasion. Does the definition of conversion therapy not matter intensely to that survey? How can it be evidence if there was no definition?

[Elliot Colburn]

We have to get the Bill to Committee so that we can thrash that out. My hon. Friend is absolutely right, but that is the point of passing legislation: we make definitions and we make laws. The whole point of giving the Bill its Second Reading today is to create a definition and pass it into law.

[Danny Kruger]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way; I hope he agrees that this is a very helpful conversation. We have been debating this issue for years, as everybody keeps saying. The reason there is no definition is because it is impossible to arrive at one. The Scottish Parliament cannot arrive at one and we have failed to do so. It is not possible to find a definition that is between what is illegal already and what we all think should not be illegal. It does not exist. The idea that the Bill should go to Committee for us to continue this conversation is absurd. It cannot be done.

[Elliot Colburn]

I am sorry, but my hon. Friend seems to have forgotten the point: this is the first time we are debating a Bill. We have failed because we have taken five years to arrive at a position where we can actually debate legislation. That is the failure. We passed Brexit faster than we have discussed this!

[Neale Hanvey]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is being very generous. The fundamental problem is that we have not been able to define the problem. There is anecdotal data from a survey that suggests that some people have reported that they have been subjected to what they define as conversion therapy, but we do not know what it is. It is not defined. What exactly are we legislating about?

I would like to ask the hon. Gentleman another question. I listened very carefully to his view on other people talking about his sexuality. Does he think it is acceptable for a gay man to be told across this Chamber what he should do, how he should define himself and who he should associate himself with? Does he feel that that is homophobic?

[Elliot Colburn]

I do not think anybody should be told what they should do. That is the entire reason I am backing the Bill. I totally accept that there will be people who will never, ever believe that LGBT+ identities are real or valid. I do not agree with that, and I and other people can find that hurtful, but that is what we have to accept in a free and democratic society.

I have been part of these conversations now for many years and I have seen the incredible work that has gone in to work across the divide to try to bring people together. I saw myself, when I sat on the Women and Equalities Committee and we conducted an inquiry into this issue, how much agreement there was between different sides about what needs to be done, especially on improving the provision of healthcare and mental healthcare. They might have different ideas on outcomes. For example, some people might think we need to improve healthcare for younger people so they do not go down a route of being trans, while other people might think we need to do that because waiting lists are too long and we want to get people on a course of treatment faster.

Both those views are, of course, absolutely valid. As parliamentarians and as individuals, we have to accept views that we do not agree with. I totally accept, as I have said, that there will be people who never think that my right to exist as a gay man is valid or that trans identities are valid. That might be upsetting and difficult for people to accept, but that is what happens in a free and democratic society, and the Bill does not encroach on that.

I want to come back to the legal test of “predetermined outcome”, as that is where we must focus. That legal test provides the safeguards necessary to address both those sets of concerns, so that we can get to a place where if someone embarks on a course of action that has a predetermined outcome to change someone’s identity, we have a legal mechanism to deal with that, but we also provide the freedoms for people to express views, to engage in legitimate conversation and, yes, to say things that other people might find distasteful and hurtful. We just have to accept that that is the case, but this is what good law is all about.

I hope that colleagues allow the Bill through to Committee. There have been many discussions of what constitutes conversion therapy and how we define these concepts. The hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown was right to use existing legal concepts, but we must be allowed to get the Bill through to Committee so that we can have this discussion in greater detail, because so far all we have heard is anecdote; we have had debates, but we have never had discussion on an actual legislative proposal. That is the opportunity we have today and it would not be right to let the Bill fall at this hurdle. We need to get it through to Committee so that we can thrash this matter out in more detail.

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[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Maria Caulfield)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown (Lloyd Russell-Moyle) on bringing forward this Bill on such an important issue in an area where the Government are keen to make progress.

First and foremost, let me be clear that so-called conversion therapy practices are dangerous and abhorrent and any new legislation in this area must seek to identify those practices as a particular threat to the LGBT community and confirm the illegality of harmful processes intended to change someone’s sexuality. The Government remain committed to an approach that protects everyone from harmful conversion practices, including the transgender community.

LGBT people should be free to live their lives without threat or fear for simply being who they are. Lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people are valued and important members of society and harmful conversion practices are inherently wrong and have no place in this country, first because they are abhorrent and, secondly, because they simply do not work. On this, we find strong and welcome agreement across the House and I am pleased that we have been able to have a balanced debate with differing views in all parts of the House. It is important that we lead by example in this place, because there is a wider debate across the country and we have to show that we can debate these sensitive issues in a responsible way.

However, the Government position is that unfortunately this Bill carries a lack of legislative clarity which risks unintended consequences, and the Government are well aware of the complexity of this issue from our own extensive work. I am sure the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown will not mind my saying that there have been honest meetings with Ministers and challenges have been discussed, and it is clear that he has wrestled with challenges in his Bill which has gone through various iterations. The Bill as it stands is a genuine attempt to overcome these challenges, but its clauses raise considerable concerns and I will come on to them in detail shortly.

The Government have rightly taken time to carefully consider our own position on these pitfalls and will be publishing a draft Bill on this topic for pre-legislative scrutiny—[Interruption.] I am coming on to that. We expect publication to be after the publication of the Cass review, which will be in the coming weeks.

[Elliot Colburn]

As we have heard throughout the debate, Dr Hilary Cass has said that there is no reason to delay a Bill on conversion therapy; she has said multiple times that there is no reason to await the Cass review to move forward. None of the promises made to bring forward a Bill ever mentioned the Cass review previously. It feels like there are more excuses about why we need to delay this. When was a decision made to now wait for the Cass review, because that is news to many of us?

[Maria Caulfield]

I welcome that valid intervention. I direct my hon. Friend to the Cass website, which says in frequently asked questions:

“The Cass Review was commissioned as an independent review of NHS gender identity services for children and young people. Its terms of reference do not include consideration of the proposed legislation to ban conversion therapy.”

However—[Interruption.] If I may finish, it also says:

“No LGBTQ+ group should be subjected to conversion therapy. However, through its work with clinical professionals, the Review recognises that the drafting of any legislation will be of paramount importance in building the confidence of clinicians working in this area.”

So the review has found evidence that may influence our conversion practices Bill, which is why we are waiting for the report.