Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

Wednesday 29th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

We go to the Chair of the Select Committee.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and it is great to see you in the Chair once again. May I say to the Secretary of State that the Union is in trouble because there is no longer a case for the Union? We know that because a significant number of under-50s now support independence. Could he tell us what the Union’s greatest achievement has been in the past few years? Is it a Brexit that Scotland does not support; is it high-rise energy prices in energy-rich Scotland; or is it being run by a bunch of Tories that most of Scotland rejected?

Sri Lanka

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

Wednesday 9th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Hon. Members may wish to remain in the Chamber, because I will now announce the result of the ballot held today for the election of a new Chair of the Treasury Committee—[Interruption.] Order. I do not expect to be heckled when I am making an announcement.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

I am just bringing some drama.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. Some 397 votes were cast, none of which were invalid. The counting went to four rounds. There were 375 active votes in the final round, excluding those ballot papers whose preferences had been exhausted. The quota to be reached was therefore 188 votes and the person elected Chair, with 204 votes, is Harriett Baldwin. She will take up her post immediately, and I congratulate her on her election. The results of the count under the alternative vote system will be made available as soon as possible in the Vote Office and published on the internet.

Business of the House

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

Thursday 2nd December 2021 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

Hip, hip, hooray! Raise the flags—Union Jacks, of course—and let us have a party in Downing Street. The Leader of the House at last had a face mask on his fizzog at Prime Minister’s questions. All he needs to do now is to convince those menaces on the libertarian wing of his Conservative party to do the same. He and I were at the same meeting when Public Health England told us that if everybody on the estate wore a face mask, infections would be cut by 12%, so no more excuses: masks on mushes.

Tuesday was a big day in the House which we will have to debate properly. For probably the first time, the L-word—the one that rhymes with “mire” and “fire”—rang out loud and clear in the Chamber. You, Madam Deputy Speaker, ruled that it could be used in the context of the debate on the conduct of the Prime Minister, possibly because no other word could be found as an appropriate replacement or substitute. The public’s outrage at the conduct of the Prime Minister just goes on, and we have to be able to debate this in the proper context and use the words that are right and appropriate for the behaviour displayed.

Today, of course, it is the Leader of the House who is all over the headlines, as he emerges as the latest Government Minister to be investigated because of his outside interests. Six million quid! I never knew he was so loaded. He could buy two peerages in the House of Lords with that money. We have to debate the Standards Committee’s report. Will he now pledge to recuse himself—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. I ask the hon. Gentleman to be very careful about what he says on any matter being considered by the Standards Committee, whose Chairman is listening carefully, as am I. I am sure the hon. Gentleman can find a way of making the points he wishes to make from a political point of view without straying into matters that should not be brought here to this Chamber at this time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pete Wishart]

Absolutely, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I cannot wait to hear from the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) about his report. It is right that this is debated, but the Leader of the House must recuse himself from participating in that debate.

Lastly, the Conservatives say none of this matters; that is what they told us on Tuesday. They have lost their opinion poll lead to the Labour party—the Labour party, for goodness’ sake—but in Scotland there was an opinion poll showing support for Scottish independence is now back up to 55%. I repeat, 55%. The Scottish people are looking at this corrupt, sleazy cesspit, and they do not like what they see and are quickly determining that it is time to get the hell out of this place.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. Before the Leader of the House answers the points made by the hon. Gentleman, I feel it incumbent upon me to clarify that the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right in what he said about my ruling on what the parliamentary leader of the SNP, the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Ian Blackford), was permitted to say in this Chamber during the Opposition day debate earlier this week. However, I must make it absolutely clear to the House, because I do not think this has been widely understood, that that was very specifically in the context of the debate being on a censure motion about a particular person, and the use of any word that implies that a Member of this House has not told the truth is allowed only in that very narrow context. This is not to be taken as a general ruling that these words can be used. There are, of course, always polite and moderate ways of making points, and that is how they should be made here in this Chamber.

NHS Funding Bill

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

Legislative Grand Committee & 3rd reading: House of Commons & Legislative Grand Committee: House of Commons & Programme motion: House of Commons & 3rd reading & Programme motion
Tuesday 4th February 2020 Commons Chamber

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Under the programme order of 27 January, I must now put the Questions necessary to dispose of the proceedings in the Legislative Grand Committee (England) on the Committee stage of the Bill, and on the consideration —Report—stage and the consent motion in the Legislative Grand Committee (England). I can see some puzzled faces around the Chamber, and not only among those who have newly been elected to this place, so for the sake of Members unfamiliar with our procedures in respect of Legislative Grand Committees, I will set out what is about to happen.

I will put the Question on amendment 2, which has already been proposed from the Chair. I will then call a member of the Legislative Grand Committee (England) to move amendment 3 to clause 1. When he has done so, I will put the Question on that amendment. I will then put the single Question that clause 1—or clause 1, as amended, if it has been so amended—and clause 2 stand part of the Bill. I will then call a member of the Legislative Grand Committee (England) to move new clause 4. When he has done so, I will put the Question that the new clause be added to the Bill.

[Pete Wishart]

Can you read it again?

[The Chairman]

I could, but we might get to the stage where there are no votes at all.

When the proceedings in the Legislative Grand Committee (England) on the Committee stage of the Bill are concluded, I will resume the Speaker’s Chair for the Whip to report the Bill from Committee. As the three-hour knife has now fallen, there are no amendments for consideration on Report, as the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Patrick Grady) rightly pointed out in his point of order earlier.

The House will again resolve itself into the Legislative Grand Committee (England) to give consent to the Bill as a whole. I will call the Minister to move the consent motion formally, and I will put the Question on the consent motion forthwith. I can see that everybody understands this a lot better now. When the proceedings in the Legislative Grand Committee (England) on the consent motion are concluded, I will resume the Speaker’s Chair and call the Minister to move the Third Reading of the Bill.

I remind hon. Members that, if there is a Division in the Legislative Grand Committee, only Members representing constituencies in England may vote. All Members may vote on the Third Reading of the Bill.

[Pete Wishart]

On a point of order, Dame Eleanor. I am very sorry, but although I was listening very carefully, I did not quite catch all of that. Do you mind repeating it once again, please?

[The Chairman]

I fully appreciate that the hon. Gentleman may not have caught all of that, but I happen to know that he is one of a handful of people in this House who does actually understand this procedure. I hope that I am one of the others, and everyone else will pick it up as we go along.

The Chair put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83D), That amendment 2 be made.

The Committee having proceeded to a Division.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chairman]

It is not as if any hon. Member of this House is ever invisible or, indeed, inaudible, but merely, once again, following Standing Order No. 83W, which this House resolved to put into the Standing Orders of the House.

[Pete Wishart]

On a point of order, Dame Eleanor. [Interruption.] I hear the groans from my Conservative colleagues. I have to keep my record of speaking in the English Parliament—it is a record that I very much cherish and look forward to maintaining. These events are being televised and people throughout the United Kingdom, particularly those in Scotland, are observing our proceedings with a degree of mystification and bewilderment. What Scottish viewers will see is the baying, groaning and booing of Conservative Members about Scottish Members of Parliament asserting their rights to have their say on the funding of the national health service. Can you confirm that that is the case and that this House really needs to grow up, behave itself and come into the 21st century?

[The Chairman]

I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman makes. I would say, as Mr Speaker always says, and as every occupant of the Chair always says, that our behaviour in this Chamber should, at all times, be of a standard that makes us never ashamed to be watched by anyone on television or in any other way, regardless of the subject of our proceedings. I notice that that has engendered some slightly better behaviour—thank you.

Motion made, and Question put forthwith,

That the Legislative Grand Committee (England) consents to the NHS Funding Bill, not amended in the Legislative Grand Committee (England).— (Edward Argar.)

Under the terms of the Order of the House of 27 January, I must now put the Question necessary to bring to a conclusion the proceedings in the Legislative Grand Committee on the consent motion. The question is the consent motion. As many are of that opinion say “Aye”—[Hon. Members: “Aye!”]—of the contrary “No”—[Hon. Members: “No!”]. The Ayes have it—[Interruption.] We now come to a scientific matter. Members representing Scottish seats are well aware that they do not have the right to vote on this particular motion. They therefore do not have the right to shout “No” when I put the question. I can hear “Aye” from the Government Benches. The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) knows that I am more than capable of discerning a Scottish “No” from a non-Scottish “No”—[Interruption.] Order. I am ruling that the shouting of “No” from the SNP Benches does not mean that we are going to have a Division.

Question agreed to.

Business Statement

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

Tuesday 15th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

I thank the Leader of the House for making this short statement this afternoon. It is disappointing that we are still in the realms of “surrender Act”. For goodness’ sake, let us try to see if we can improve the language used in this House. Using terms like that is singularly inappropriate and I believe it does not catch the mood of the House at all.

The Leader of the House made his statement with all the enthusiasm of a prime ministerial speech at a People’s Vote rally. The last thing that he wants to bring to the House are the constraints that were given to this Government under the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019. We did that because we wanted to ensure we did not have the situation where they could possibly have their no-deal scenario. Thank goodness we have this extra piece of security at our disposal to ensure that the Government have to continue to come to Parliament every week to give some sort of statement. We are grateful for that.

I agree with the concerns of the Labour spokesperson. We need to see more about the proposed motion. It is just not good enough to glibly say, “Sorry, it’s not available.” This should have been available to us. How many hours have been set aside for this tomorrow? We are halfway through the Queen’s Speech debate and this is now going to be included. Will it disrupt the business of debating the Queen’s Speech? How long will we get to debate it? I also share the concerns about Saturday. We need to hear what is happening on Saturday. We need to have some sort of plan. We are from Scotland, Leader of the House. You have already destroyed our conference. We are all here missing our leader’s speech today. We are possibly going to have to come back. We do not know what we are going to be doing. Give us some certainty and security. [Interruption.] If he is going to say to me—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. I did not hear what the hon. Gentleman said at the end of his question and I guess that lots of other people did not either. I am therefore going to ask him to repeat it and the House ought to listen to the last bit of his question.

[Pete Wishart]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am tempted to start from the very beginning of my remarks, because they have been met with such enthusiasm by colleagues across the Floor. Is it not ridiculous? All we are saying is give us a bit of certainty and Government Members are trying to shout me down. What an appalling thing to do. It just shows us how bad and febrile this House has become. It is a very legitimate question: when will we secure certainty about the weekend? If it is all about events, will he tell us that they will be concluded by Saturday so we can sit? Come on, tell us what is happening. When will we hear what is going on and how long will we be sitting tomorrow night?

Ministerial Code

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

Monday 16th July 2018 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

I rise to propose that the House should debate a specific and important matter for urgent consideration, namely section 9.5 of the ministerial code.

I am grateful to you for calling me, Madam Deputy Speaker. This is my third attempt to secure a Standing Order No. 24 debate. So far the result has been zero out of two, but I am hoping for better fortune with this application.

Last Thursday’s release of the Department for Exiting the European Union’s White Paper “The future relationship between the United Kingdom and the European Union” was nothing less than a farce. Chaotic scenes of Members of Parliament throwing White Papers across the Chamber like frisbees did nothing for the reputation of this House or that of the document itself. At the point when the Secretary of State rose to give his statement neither our office, nor the Labour Whips Office, had received a copy of it. Section 9.5 of the ministerial code states:

“A copy of the text of an oral statement should usually be shown to the Opposition shortly before it is made. For this purpose, 15 copies of the statement and associated documents should be sent to the Chief Whip’s Office at least 45 minutes before the statement is to be made. At the same time, a copy of the final text of an oral statement should in all cases be sent in advance to the Speaker.”

I do not know whether Mr Speaker did receive a copy of the final text of the statement, but what I do know is that that same White Paper had been given to members of the press at 9 o’clock that morning, compounding the total disrespect to this House.

This was an important statement and an even more important document. The House has been waiting for two years for some kind of negotiating position from Her Majesty’s Government. Equally, the EU has been waiting two years, and people from across these isles had been waiting to hear what the Government were going to propose. As you know, Madam Deputy Speaker, Scotland did not vote for this Brexit. We did not endorse it and we want nothing whatsoever to do with it. Shambles and crises are occurring right across Whitehall—these crises seem to be developing by the hour.

May I also take this opportunity to thank Mr Speaker for suspending that chaotic session to ensure that Members had at least a few minutes to skim some of the pages of the White Paper before attempting to hold the Secretary of State to account? What the public must have made of those proceedings is anyone’s guess, but it was not the first time that the Department for Exiting the European Union had done this. One instance might have been an accident, but we are starting to see a troubling trend from this Department and others. This is just about the worst possible example of a breach of the ministerial code, and the matter requires more attention from the House. I humbly request an emergency debate to get the answers that the House and the country need.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

The hon. Gentleman has asked leave to propose a debate on a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely section 9.5 of the ministerial code. I have listened carefully to the application, which the hon. Gentleman made in his usual excellent, rhetorical manner. I have to tell him that I am not persuaded that this matter is proper to be discussed under Standing Order No. 24. I thank him for his usual excellent and entertaining rhetoric.

Main Estimates 2018-19

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

Tuesday 3rd July 2018 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

The hon. Gentleman must allow me to finish answering the point of order. Nothing disorderly has occurred. It is up to every Member of this House to decide how to use parliamentary procedure. I am quite sure that those who called five Divisions this evening know the effect that their calling of those Divisions has had.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

No. The hon. Gentleman asked a reasonable question, to which I can only give a straight answer.

[Pete Wishart]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I very much concur with my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East (David Linden). We spent an hour considering the important allocation of spending by Department by this Government, and we here in this place are tasked with that very function. However, would it not be a lot better to solve all these situations by doing what my hon. Friend suggests and getting electronic voting down here so that we do not spend hours and hours in packed Lobbies going around in circles just to vote?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s point, but I have already answered it. I have had no notice of such a matter to be raised.

Seasonal Migrant Workers

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

Thursday 1st March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Peter Grant]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

[Pete Wishart]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The ruling you have just made is very important, and I wonder whether it might be worthwhile abandoning this afternoon’s business now so that Members and staff can get home sooner because of the inclement weather.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s point, but I have neither the power nor the inclination to abandon the business. I am, however, making an appeal to the decency of Members, and say that sometimes if one is making a point it can be made just as effectively if made more quickly.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pete Wishart]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman can see that the Minister does not intend to take an intervention. [Interruption.] Order. He knows that he cannot make points from a sedentary position. He has already made his points and the Minister has heard them.

Telecommunications Infrastructure (Relief from Non-Domestic Rates) Bill

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

3rd reading: House of Commons & Committee: 1st sitting: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Tuesday 5th September 2017 Commons Chamber

[The First Deputy Chairman]

I am pausing, lest anyone wishes to intervene at this moment.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

Come on!

[The First Deputy Chairman]

The hon. Gentleman must not tell the Chair to come on. I am anticipating some great speeches. I have stopped anticipating such great speeches.

Question put and agreed to.

The occupant of the Chair left the Chair to report the decision of the Committee (Standing Order No. 83M(6)).

The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair; decision reported.

Third Reading

Digital Economy Bill

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

3rd reading: House of Commons & Legislative Grand Committee: House of Commons & Programme motion No. 3: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Monday 28th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

I thank the hon. Members who spoke for only two minutes. Their courtesy has been noticed and they will get brownie points. There is now plenty of time left for Mr Pete Wishart.

[Pete Wishart]

Thank you ever so much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I refer the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests in relation to my recorded work.

I would say that this has been a good evening. The concessions we have heard from the Minister are most definitely to be welcomed. I am a veteran of the former Digital Economy Bill. Looking around the Chamber, I can see a few people who still bear the scars of that experience. I must say—this is my first contribution on this Digital Economy Bill—that this one seems to be being given a much more convivial and consensual outing. I am looking at the hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan), and I just hope we do not get a version of “Smoke on the Water” from the right hon. Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale), as we did when we went out to celebrate the passage of the Digital Economy Bill last time. The hon. Gentleman does a fantastic impersonation of the right hon. Gentleman singing that, which I hope we will never hear in this House.

We have made real and substantial progress, and I welcome the Minister’s words on new clause 15. That was the provision I wanted to address most firmly. When we consider search engines, we must remember that these are the pipes or the infrastructure, and they create no content of their own. Our creative industries are very important to this country. They are driving the economy now—they are growing at a faster rate than the rest of the economy—and we are firing economic growth on the imagination of the people of this country. What a way to grow our economy. It is therefore absolutely right that we should make substantial progress on this, and the Minister’s words are welcome.

I would only say to the Minister that we are listening very carefully, and if the companies do not come up with the voluntary code, we will need him to act. We need him to ensure that our artists, creators and inventors —those who produce in this country the wonderful content that is known right around the world—are properly rewarded for their works. We are all looking forward to seeing what plans will be introduced.

On new clause 16, I have the pleasure and privilege of chairing the all-party writers group, and we welcome the Government’s clear commitment to deal with the very real measures on e-learning. All writers and authors, all those involved in publishing and all those across the country who support literature and books have been asking for this for a long time. Again, we welcome the solid progress that will be made.

Lastly, we welcome the progress that the Government have committed to make on ticket touts and the whole issue of bots. I have been in the House for 15 years, and one of the first debates I was involved in in the House was about ticket touting. Many Members have stood up in the House and demanded solid action from Governments when it comes to this really pernicious industry, which corrodes our live music scene. Live music is one of the major features and one of the growing parts of music across this country. Artists continually go on about this issue, and, at last, it looks as though it will be addressed. I pay tribute, obviously, to the hon. Members for Selby and Ainsty (Nigel Adams) and for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson), but also to people such as John Robertson, the chair the all-party group on music before the hon. Member for Selby and Ainsty, who stood up in the House to try to get something done about ticket touts. Again, we have made solid progress.

As we wind up these proceedings on the Bill, we have heard the Minister make these commitments—he has said that he is prepared to make progress—and it is now incumbent on us all to ensure that these commitments are brought into legislation. We have made very good progress on the Bill this evening. We have a range of provisions that mean my hon. Friends and I will be able to support the Bill. We look forward to the Government honouring their commitments, and we look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say on Third Reading.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

We have a whole minute to spare.

Student Maintenance Grants

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

Tuesday 19th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I am particularly concerned for the hon. Gentleman, because he is very new to this House. Indeed, I hope he will be making his maiden speech later this afternoon. We are all looking forward to that. Of course his name ought to have been there. We will do everything to make sure it is there in future.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I wonder whether you could help me with this. This is very serious. The fact that one of our Members—one of the most English of all English Members—has been denied the opportunity to vote in the first double majority vote in this House is something that has to be properly investigated. Can you suggest, Madam Deputy Speaker, whether it is now worth having a recount, given that hon. Members have obviously been left out of this very important first vote?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the vote of the hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) has most definitely been counted. There is no need for a recount.

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

Tuesday 12th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[The First Deputy Chairman]

I do not call John Healey. I beg the right hon. Gentleman’s pardon. I call Pete Wishart.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

I am grateful, Mrs Laing.

So, this is what an English Parliament looks like. It looks pretty much like the unitary UK Parliament to me. This is a remarkable day. It is worth noting how significant and historic this is. For the first time in the history of this House and this Parliament, Members of Parliament will be banned from participating in Divisions of this House, based on nationality and the geographic location of their constituencies.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pete Wishart]

The right hon. Gentleman just does not understand, so I will try to explain it to him patiently once again. We live in the United Kingdom. There is asymmetric devolution within the United Kingdom. We have a Parliament in Scotland that determines and decides the very issues—[Interruption.]

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman is a Member of this House and has a right to be heard. He will be heard.

[Pete Wishart]

I did not know whether I was a Member of this House or an international observer, but I will take the initial one as your favour—thank you, Mrs Laing.

Let me say to the right hon. Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) that we have a Parliament in Scotland that determines and decides on these matters—he is right; we do that in Scotland. We do those things in this House too, but what he wants, and what has been created today, is a quasi-English Parliament within the confines of the unitary Parliament of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland. That is the nub of the issue, and that is why this first meeting today is so significant and remarkable.

Housing and Planning Bill (Programme) (No. 2)

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

Tuesday 5th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

As Mr Speaker informed the House on Monday 26 October, before a Report stage begins on a Bill, he will seek to identify in advance those changes made in Committee which he would expect to certify as relating only to England or only to England and Wales, together with any Government amendments tabled for Report stage which, if passed, would be likely to lead him to issue a certificate. Mr Speaker’s provisional certificate, based on those changes and expected amendments, is available on the Bills before Parliament website.

At the end of the Report stage of a Bill, on its second day in this case, Mr Speaker is required to consider the Bill as amended on Report for certification. Before we get to that point, he will issue a further provisional certificate. As Mr Speaker informed the House on 26 October, he has accepted the advice of the Procedure Committee not, as a rule, to give reasons for decisions on certification during this experimental phase of the new regime. Anyone wishing to make representations to Mr Speaker prior to any decision should send them to the Clerk of Legislation.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I wonder whether you can help me. Have you any idea or any clue what any of that meant—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. Because there is noise in the Chamber, I cannot hear the hon. Gentleman’s point of order.

[Pete Wishart]

I repeat my point of order. Have you any idea or any clue what any of that which you have just read out meant?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Yes. I thought it was crystal clear and I deliberately announced it very slowly to ensure that all Members in the House had a chance to understand it. If the hon. Gentleman would like a tutorial, we are all available later—it is no problem.

Council of Europe

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

Monday 16th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. As someone who does not follow the interminable petty disputes within the Conservative party—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. I cannot hear the hon. Gentleman. People should not be speaking behind the Chair.

[Pete Wishart]

I am grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker, for a second chance. For those of us who do not follow the lovers tiffs within the Conservative party, will you explain which wing of the Conservative party actually won that vote?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

No, I cannot explain that to the hon. Gentleman; I think he knows, like the rest of the House, that, very fortunately, that is not a point of order for the Chair.

Scotland Bill (Programme) (No.2)

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

Monday 9th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart]

I do wish to take the opportunity to orate because we are profoundly disappointed with the time available to discuss significant and important issues, including amendments to the Scotland Bill, which is a critical piece of legislation for our nation. More than 100 amendments have been selected for debate this afternoon, and that follows the 76-page document that listed amendments tabled by right hon. and hon. Members across the House. We now have something like two and a half hours to debate critical amendments on tax powers and the constitution. After that, we will probably have less than two hours to discuss the equally significant welfare powers in the rest of the Bill.

We know how this place works. There will be Divisions, and 20 minutes will be taken up with the 18th-century arcane practice of wandering through a Lobby to be counted. When will this House start to enter the 21st century and leave the 18th century so that Divisions do not eat into our time-limited debates? How can it possibly be right that we have so little time? Realistically, we will have something like four hours, perhaps three and a half hours, which is little more than an hon. Member would get—[Interruption.] Hon. Members are chuntering. Do they not know that this 45-minute debate is time reserved? Even this is eating into time—they cannot even bother looking at their Order Papers.

Scotland is watching these proceedings, and people just will not understand the gross disrespect shown to our nation’s debate and business. It will feel as if Scotland has been given an almighty slap in the face and told just to get on with it in whatever time this House deems fit to provide to our nation—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman is making extremely important points. He says that he needs to be heard, and he needs to be heard not just outside the Chamber but inside it. Members will be quiet while he speaks.

[Pete Wishart]

Scotland is watching. People are observing these proceedings and cannot believe that we have been given such a limited amount of time to debate such critical and significant amendments. The Bill had four days in Committee. We were surprised and delighted that we got all that time, but what a supreme waste of time those four days were, with a Government who were only semi-engaged in that debate. The Government accepted not one amendment from the hundreds that were tabled, and they provided nothing, with no significant amendments of their own. The Secretary of State said that the Committee was a listening and reflecting stage. He was more reflective than a high street mirror shop this summer, but the one thing he did not do was engage properly in the Committee of this House. It was all about listening. If Committee stage of a Bill is about listening, we may as well go round to see the Secretary of State and have a little chitchat over a cup of tea, or perhaps even write to him.

A Committee stage of this House should be the place where amendments are properly debated and considered, with a Government who are engaged in the process. It is not good enough to table hundreds of amendments on Report and have a time-limited debate to consider them. That shows great disrespect to the House, and it is not the way to do business. If this is how we will do business in the House in future, and if the Committee of the whole House is nothing but a listening exercise, we must recalibrate how we do business in this House. It is not good enough that we spent all that time merely being listened to, and then we are given five hours today to discuss serious, significant and important amendments that our nation needs to make its business.

We now have hundreds of amendments since the Government decided to engage with this process. They told us that they were all unnecessary and that we did not need them because the Smith Commission was delivered in full, yet today, all of a sudden and in the limited time available, hundreds of Government amendments are on the Order Paper. We will not have the opportunity to scrutinise properly the proposals that the Government have put before the House today.

We still do not believe that the Smith commission has been delivered in full. We have tabled amendments to ensure that it is delivered in full, but even if those are accepted, the Bill is still significantly behind where the Scottish people are and what they want from the constitutional arrangements for our nation. This is only the start of a catch-up process.

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

The hon. Gentleman knows well that that is not a point of order for the Chair: it is part of the debate. The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire has pointed out that there is only a short time available for this debate. I hope that we can soon come to the debate itself and that he will also curtail his remarks.

[Pete Wishart]

I do not want to take up time, but I want the House to understand the rage that my hon. Friends and I feel about the limited amount of time that we have been given today.

I also want to reassure the House that we are not looking to have the Bill certified as English only, even though the Government consider the Scotland Bill to be an English-only Bill. We do not even want it to be certified as Scotland only, even though every single bit of the Bill applies exclusively to Scotland. I just hope that in the few short hours we have for debate that English Members will remember that when they make their contributions and vote. I hope that they listen to the voices of Scottish Members of Parliament on the Bill. It is not good enough to turn up and decide to have their say on Scottish business in this new age of English votes for English laws, but we will not have the Bill certified today.

We want the Bill to be discussed and debated properly, although it is way behind what the Scottish people require. We will not press the programme motion to a Division, even though the House knows how angry we feel about the limited time, because that would take further time from the debate.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

Monday 9th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. We have five hours in which to debate critical and significant amendments to the Scotland Bill, and the hon. Gentleman has been going on about devolution for England. He has not even tabled any amendments on this particular issue. When can we get back to debating the Scotland Bill and the important amendments that have been tabled to it?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman has made, and I take it very seriously. I have been listening carefully to the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen). He is addressing points that are relevant to the precise matters before us and to the amendments and new clauses, in a general way, but I am sure he will accept the feeling of the House that, while it is interesting and generally relevant to discuss these issues in general and as a matter of academic interest, it is also important for the House to have enough time to debate the many amendments and new clauses that are before us. I am not stopping the hon. Gentleman, but I am trusting him to know when he will draw his remarks to a conclusion.

Standing Orders (Public Business)

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

Thursday 22nd October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The shadow Leader of the House has been on his feet for half an hour. The House will not hear from a Scottish Member of Parliament until the sixth speaker. This is being done to us, because it is we who will become second-class Members. Is there anything you can do to speed up proceedings so that we can hear from Scottish Members of Parliament?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very reasonable point. Many Members are waiting to speak, and they have legitimate points of view that the House must hear, which is why I have appealed for brevity and for short interventions. The shadow Leader of the House has another minute until he reaches half an hour, at which point I will raise my eyebrows at him.

Business of the House

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

Thursday 9th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

I, too, thank the Leader of the House for announcing next week’s business.

Well, well—what an EVEL shambles! I am prepared to take the Leader of the House at his word that he is listening and is prepared to move on this issue. May I suggest a way forward that we could all agree on and work together on? We are grateful that we are getting an extra day’s debate and that we will have more time to consider the issue, but now is the time for him to go to the Clerks, get a Bill and bring it to the House so that we can debate all the issues to do with English votes for English laws properly, given its historical significance and constitutional importance. We would then have the opportunity to amend it and to treat it like every other major piece of legislation. Will he commit himself to delivering that today?

There was a promise to go to the Procedure Committee. That was clearly broken—a manifesto promise made by this Government. Before anything happens, the proposals should go before the Procedure Committee and the Scottish Affairs Committee. They should proceed only with the permission and say-so of those two Committees. Will the Leader of the House commit to that today?

Madam Deputy Speaker—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman has the floor. Please continue.

[Pete Wishart]

I am very grateful to you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

We debated the Committee stage of the Scotland Bill for four days. Some 200 amendments had been tabled, and there were some 20 Divisions. How many of those amendments did the Government accept? Zero. None. Zilch.

The amendments were designed in the Scottish Parliament to improve the Bill and deliver the principles of the Smith commission. They were agreed by all parties in that Parliament, they were voted for by the Members who are sitting behind me now. None of them was accepted. We already have English votes for English laws, because all those amendments were voted down on the backs of English Members of Parliament: it was they who decided the votes. When will we get Scottish votes for Scottish laws in the House of Commons?

Finally, may I ask whether we can have an urgent debate on mis-selling and false labelling? What we heard yesterday was nonsense. The Government should have been pulled in front of the Advertising Standards Authority for describing what we heard about as a national living wage. I think that the people of the United Kingdom are waking up this morning and trying to understand what sort of nonsense this is. I am sure that we shall hear much more about it in the future, because we have never come across anything quite like it before. To call that a national living wage does not even do respect to the label.

EU Justice and Home Affairs Measures

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

Wednesday 19th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart]

I am not going to give way to the right hon. and learned Gentleman. I do not know how I can, as I have no more time—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman is not going to give way.

[Pete Wishart]

I cannot give way as I have no more time.

I want to address a point about one important case in Scotland. A Polish national, Grzegorz Gamla, was convicted last December of the murder of Maciej Ciania in Leith. He was arrested by the Polish authorities within five hours of a European arrest warrant being issued. We do not have any of the silly, insignificant and unsubstantial cases that others have cited, and I think that is because we have our own jurisdiction in Scotland and because of how we look at these matters. This is not the European arrest warrant’s fault, but it might be the fault of how the Ministry of Justice looks at such matters. Perhaps it should be looking at its own procedures to see whether they can be addressed properly.

In Scotland, we do not share the Euro-hostility that seems to pervade this House and the UKIPification of the UK in which Master Farage pulls all the strings and those on the Tory Front Bench dance along. The UKIPification of the UK is almost complete. The hon. Member for Clacton (Douglas Carswell) is in his place. He will be joined by his friend on Thursday. I do not know how many other Conservative Members will resign, but I suspect it will be quite a few.

My country is going to be dragged out of the European Union against its will because of the Euro-hostility in this place. We observe these things, but we want no part in them. We are being dragged out against our will. I just wish that the Conservatives would take on UKIP, stop pandering to it and stand up for their own values, rather than for the values of the hon. Member for Clacton and his party.

Immigration Bill

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

Thursday 30th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

I call Pete Wishart.

[Pete Wishart]

Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was not expecting that, but I am delighted to be called so early in the debate.

This is a rotten Bill made all the more rotten by some of these appalling amendments. We are in this position because the Government are in an appalling race to the bottom with the UK Independence party—this is all about seeing who can be toughest on immigration. I have to say to the Home Secretary, “You’re not gonnae win that one—forget about it. You cannot out-UKIP UKIP. They are the masters of nasty, pernicious populism, and you’ll never beat them.” It is a credit to the Government that they will not be able to beat UKIP on such issues but, by God, with this Bill and their amendments, they are having a good stab at it. I expect the right hon. Lady to lose that particular battle.

The Government’s stated aim through the Bill is to make the UK a more hostile environment for illegal immigrants. Well done Home Secretary; you have certainly achieved that with fantastic aplomb. The job of these right-wing immigration Bills is to do two simple, straightforward things: stop people coming in; and kick out as many people we do not like as we can at the same time. The Bill manages to achieve both those objectives, and the addition of the Government’s amendments and new clauses means that it will be done even more thoroughly.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pete Wishart]

I invite the hon. Gentleman, who I know takes a great interest in these matters—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. I am going to give the hon. Gentleman the protection of the Chair on that question, which he does not have to answer, because we are beginning to stray a little—not far—from the point in question.

[Pete Wishart]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, although I do not need your protection when it comes to these issues. All I will say to the hon. Gentleman is that he should turn up to next week’s debate on Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom so that can discuss them further.

I will bring my remarks to a close. What we are seeing today is a dreadful Bill being made even worse. We will vote against it on Third Reading, although I do not think that we will get much of a debate on Third Reading. It is a terrible Bill, and this has been an awful process. It makes me ashamed that we are still part of all this. I just long for the day when we will have a Government in Scotland who do not spend all this time exercising themselves, as this Government do, over immigration, EU exit and all the nasty and pernicious things they are doing because of UKIP. It might as well be Nigel Farage standing at the Dispatch Box. Why do we not just get him in, because he has the whole House dancing to a UKIP jig? That is what we will see right up to the end of this Parliament: Nigel Farage pulling all the strings of Conservative Front Benchers. They might as well have him at the Dispatch Box, because this is nothing other than a UKIP Bill.

Constitutional Law

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

Tuesday 15th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Laing]

No, it is not. The hon. Gentleman has answered the question in a factual way—the franchise for a Scottish Parliament election was based on the franchise for a local government election. I know that, but my argument is that basing a franchise on local government elections is not suitable for a historic referendum that will affect Scotland and the whole United Kingdom for a long time to come.

If the franchise had been based on the UK parliamentary elections, British nationals who have been living outside Britain for less than 15 years would have a vote. That would be much fairer, and would cover the point made by the hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Pamela Nash), because someone serving in the armed forces in, say, Germany, who has their entire family living with them—who would presumably have been out of Scotland for less than 15 years—would have a vote in the constituency in which they were last based in Scotland. It would make far more sense to base the franchise for the referendum on UK parliamentary elections, because that would allow far more people who are Scottish and who want to have a say in the future of their country to do so.

There is a far more difficult point. Hundreds of thousands of Scots living in parts of the United Kingdom other than Scotland do not feel in travelling the few miles to Carlisle or the few hundred miles to London that they have left their country. Their attitude—I know because I am one of them—is that they are living in a different part of their country from that in which they happen to have been born. That does not mean that they have in any way given up their nationality or their pride in their part of our United Kingdom. It is utterly scandalous that the Scottish Government’s current plans will disfranchise hundreds of thousands of people who were born in Scotland but live in other parts of the United Kingdom. The First Minister of Scotland has said that people from Commonwealth countries can vote on Scotland’s future, citizens of the Irish Republic who live in Scotland can vote on Scotland’s future, and anyone who is a citizen of any part of the enormous European Union who happens to be living in Scotland for a matter of months can have a say in the future of Scotland, but hundreds of thousands of Scots living in England, Wales and Northern Ireland will not have that say.

[Pete Wishart]

I have been listening carefully to the hon. Lady’s remarks for half an hour or so. All the arrangements to which she has referred during the past 10 minutes were agreed between her party’s Front Bench and the Labour Front Bench, and between the UK Government and the Scottish Government. If she is not happy about the arrangements for the Scottish people to have control over their own referendum through their elected representatives, she can express her unhappiness by voting against the order. Will she do that?

[Mrs Laing]

No. I am very happy. The hon. Gentleman is trying to put words into my mouth, suggesting that I do not understand or care what happens in Scotland. That is not the case. I am very much in favour of the order, and very much in favour of allowing the Scottish Parliament to conduct the referendum. However, I firmly believe that because the referendum will affect the future of the whole United Kingdom, this House—this Parliament—should also serve as a forum for discussion about its conduct.

Although I do not happen to live in Scotland at present, and although some Members who are speaking this afternoon do not represent Scottish constituencies, I hope that if matters will proceed with good will, the Scottish Parliament will take into consideration what we discuss in this Parliament during the process of giving it the power to hold the referendum.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pete Wishart]

Perhaps at last we can get on to the substance of this debate. I was so looking forward to debating this measure. Who would have thought that we would be here today confirming Scotland’s opportunity to determine its own future? We have the possibility and prospect of Scotland becoming a self-governing nation once again, joining the community of nations and making its own peaceful contribution to world affairs. We have the chance to become a country of our own, to make decisions for ourselves and to stand tall, with dignity, self-respect and pride, in the world. This is a fantastic moment, and I am pleased that we are here today debating the possibility, through this order, of Scotland achieving that very fine ambition.

[Mrs Laing]

rose—

[Pete Wishart]

Of course I will give way to the hon. Lady—we cannot hear enough from her.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Laing]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that Scotland already stands tall and proud as a nation in the world as part of the United Kingdom?

[Pete Wishart]

Absolutely, and is it not fantastic and fascinating that we have been able to achieve that? But let us imagine what more we can achieve. Let us imagine Scotland not getting involved in things such as illegal wars, not hosting weapons of mass destruction such as Trident but making a peaceful contribution to world affairs, and not doing what we have seen in the past 10 years. That is a Scotland I aspire to. That is what I think the Scottish people will choose once they have the opportunity to make this decision, and that is what is so exciting and so transformative about this whole debate—we have the possibility and prospect that our nation can once again become independent and make its own role in the world. There is nothing finer than that as an ambition, and I look forward to taking that debate forward.

Many people fought for that right. My hon. Friend the Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) talked about some of the giants of the Scottish National party, who stood in this Chamber, exposed as we are continually and consistently to the barrage of overwhelming Unionist hostility—shouted down before we even get the first syllable out—but they still stood here and put the case for Scotland’s right to choose. I joined this party 20 years ago, in 1993, and Labour used to joke about the slogan, “Free by ’93”—it was quite a good joke. Now it is 63% and 2013—that is the difference. My hon. Friend was spot on: that has been achieved by the hard work of the Scottish National party Members of Parliament who inhabit these Benches and who have taken forward the case in the face of overwhelming hostility to and contempt for the idea of Scottish independence. They plugged away, they fought, they put the case and now they will be rewarded with a real opportunity for the Scottish people to make the decision on their own.

I want to pay tribute not just to the giants of our movement who have fought so hard to achieve this result but to the ordinary activists—the people who turn up on cold, frozen Saturday mornings to hand out leaflets and encourage people to put the best interests of their country first. They do that week in, week out. They include people like my constituent John Cullens, who died just last year, still trying to serve his nation. He fought alongside me to try to secure electoral victory in Perth and North Perthshire and was so excited about the prospect of a referendum for Scotland that he was always the first there and always the last to leave. As well as the giants of the party to whom my hon. Friend referred, let us remember the hard-working activists who have worked day in, day out to try to secure this result for our nation.

I want to congratulate both Governments and to pay tribute to the Minister, too, who worked exceptionally hard to deliver the Edinburgh agreement. I thought that the Secretary of State’s speech was the best today by far—it went way above any of the dreary speeches we heard from those on the Labour Benches, with their incessant negativity. It was good to hear from the Secretary of State. I also want to pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Mr Kennedy). He made a thoughtful and non-partisan speech and was prepared to recognise some of the things in the Edinburgh agreement, including how we were prepared to make progress. That is what the Edinburgh agreement was all about: two Governments working together. Even though there is a division between our strongly felt beliefs, we can still sit down together and come together for the common purpose of ensuring that the people of Scotland get the referendum to which they are entitled and that they deserve. Why can we not continue in the spirit engendered by the Edinburgh agreement? Why can we not start to debate the possibility of both options?

I paid tribute to the Secretary of State, but it was disappointing to hear his remarks over the weekend, when he said that he was not prepared even to consider some of the technical details of a yes vote in the referendum. Surely we owe it to the Scottish people to try to do some sort of preparatory work in case there is a yes vote—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Laing]

If the hon. Gentleman really believes that it is right to widen the franchise to all those who have a stake in Scotland’s future, such as 16 and 17-year-olds, why will he not accept that people who temporarily do not happen to live in Scotland have a stake in its future too and should have a vote in the referendum?

[Pete Wishart]

I listened carefully to what the hon. Lady said about the issue in her contribution. Yes, there is a huge debate about who does, and does not, have the opportunity to vote in Scotland’s referendum, which is right and proper. However, the line has to be drawn somewhere.

Government Ministers, Labour spokespeople, members of the Scottish Government and MSPs have agreed that the fairest way to proceed is to have a franchise that is all about the people who live and work in Scotland. To try any other technical assessment or way of doing these things would lead to incredible difficulties and problems. I am happy and relaxed about the position. There will always be losers in these things, which I accept, but I think that both Governments and both big parties in the House agree that this is the way forward. There is no other way to do it.

It is unfortunate that some Scots feel disfranchised, but there will always be winners and losers when it comes to drawing up lists of people who can participate in such a referendum. I am sure that, like me, the hon. Lady is excited about the prospect of the youngest Scots—perhaps her nieces and nephews—having the opportunity to participate in a decision on their future. I can see that she is smiling, and agrees that it is a fantastic, transformative event, and an opportunity for the youngest participants in our democracy. I visit schools, like most Members in the Chamber, and in my 12 years as a Member of the House I have detected an increasing interest in Scottish politics among our young people. It is fantastic that they will be offered the most important choice in the referendum that they will ever have in their young lives.

Today marks the end of the involvement and role of the House in the formal process of Scotland’s referendum. It is all over; it is finished. We are grateful for the contributions from hon. Members, and we always enjoy hearing their views. Everybody in Scotland has given serious attention to their considered opinions, particularly from Conservative friends—people in Scotland are hanging on their every word. I hope that hon. Members across the House remain engaged with the debate.

Scotland and the Union

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

Thursday 29th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart]

I expected that response. In fact, it said on Twitter that that intervention would be made.

I say to the Minister that, as we examine our relationship with the rest of the United Kingdom, we discover some of these fantastic ties. I accept that there will be vestiges of Britishness. That is a personal interest of mine. We are British. I live in Perth in the north of the island called Great Britain. It is called that because it is the largest of the British isles. I am British as much as somebody from Stockholm or Copenhagen is Scandinavian. That is the reality of geography and it cannot be denied. Hon. Members may want to take forward their obsession with separation by building a channel between Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom. That is the only way they could stop us being British.

I accept that being British is about more than just geography. Of course there is something cultural about Britishness. However, Britishness is an invention. It was a necessary social construct to unite all the nations of the United Kingdom. That is why it is so hard to define and describe. We have heard some great and excruciating attempts to define Britishness. Who could forget the attempt of the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath, when he talked about

“British jobs for British workers”?

I remember the attempt by Michael Portillo, when he described Britishness as anti-fanaticism. However, Britishness is more than that. It is the combination of the 300 years that we have shared and endured across these islands. It is about everything from the industrial revolution to how we stood together in the wars; the Queen has been mentioned, and, of course, there are great pop and rock bands.

I was particularly disappointed with the views of the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) who tried to scaremonger on the issue of culture. He said that British music would be no longer “our” music but “their” music—whoever “they” are. I played in a band for 15 years. I replaced an English keyboard player and the lead singer of my band is Canadian. To suggest that something as free-spirited as music can be confined to borders or frontiers is absurd and ridiculous. The right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West should be ashamed of trying to scaremonger about culture.

One good definition of Britishness—as has been mentioned fleetingly—was the opening ceremony of the Olympic games, which got close to describing and defining Britishness. Danny Boyle did a fantastic job with his cultural tour de force. The big irony, however, is that part of that fantastic presentation placed a strong emphasis on the country’s social ethos, and particularly on the NHS, which the Westminster Tories are currently disestablishing through privatisation. Already, part of that glimpse of Britishness disappears with that very statement.

[Mrs Laing]

rose—

[Pete Wishart]

I will not give way to the hon. Lady, because I do not have much time.

That Britishness has no place in discussions on independence simply because it cannot be un-invented. We cannot un-invent all our ties, heritage and culture; we will always have a shared history and joint heritage, and there will always be cultural relationships and collaboration.

Independence will bring a new, improved relationship between Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom, because we will come to it from a position of equality and mutual respect. Most people in Scotland now describe themselves as Scottish—some, of course, describe themselves as and feel profoundly British, but most surveys of social attitude suggest that most Scots now present themselves as Scottish.

As we have gone forward with our own national Parliament and strengthened our institutions, Scottish people are feeling more secure in their identity and more culturally relaxed about who they are. That is why we are able to adopt different identities and why we can easily accept the idea of being Scottish—we could be Pakistani Scottish, Indian Scottish, Polish Scottish, but we are all Scottish and that is how people now describe themselves. With independence, we could express our unique Scottishness in world institutions. We could bring Scottish values to international affairs and institutions, and that would only be good for people in Scotland.

[Pete Wishart]

My hon. Friend is right. Britishness is about identity and geography. Our gripe is not with cultural Britishness or the social union—

[Mrs Laing]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Pete Wishart]

I do not have time. As the hon. Lady will know, I have used my two minutes’ injury time.

Our gripe is with political arrangements within the United Kingdom. We want to recalibrate political relationships within the UK; we want powers to grow our economy and make our own international contribution. We want to complete the powers of our Parliament and take responsibility for our affairs. We have no issue with our British past, heritage and culture, and they will be defining features of how we go forward as Scottish people.

I find talk of separation and the idea that people will become “foreigners” dispiriting and depressing. Some of the language used has become quite chilling and I am getting a bit concerned. When people are described as foreigners I feel a little uncomfortable. I know that people have to build up the idea of Scotland as an unviable nation, and suggest that it is a risk and that there is scary stuff out there if it becomes independent, but can we please be careful with some of the language used when people build up that theme of separation? Negativity is a big and necessary part of the case and construct used by those who oppose independence.

We have heard about the past and the things that unite us, and about our great relationships and institutions and the contribution that Scotland has made to the United Kingdom, but what about the future. What does Scotland get if it says no in a referendum on independence? Can we have a guarantee that if it remains in the Union, Scotland will be part of the EU in 10 years’ time? We have heard lots of talk about rolling back the achievements of the devolution era, but can we be certain that the gains of devolution will be secure if Scotland says no? Will the Scottish Parliament get more powers and—most importantly—if Scotland says no to independence, will the Scottish people be more prosperous? People have had 300 years to think about these issues, but nobody will give us answers. Those against independence have to come up with a case for Scotland to remain in the Union, but we have not heard it yet. Some of today’s contributions have been a little more positive, but we must hear a lot more about what people want to achieve.

Those of us in favour of Scottish independence will, of course, be positive and put the case for it. I love my country and I want it to be all that it can. I want it to walk tall and for Scotland to have the national self-respect and dignity to make its own place in the world, take its own decisions, and ensure that the Scottish people are responsible for their own failures. We are a dynamic, inventive and resourceful people. Of course we will make a success of independence, and I am glad we no longer hear comments of “Too wee, too poor, too stupid.” Of course Scotland will be a success when it gets its independence; of course we will be great.

I am depressed about the fact that Scotland is tethered to a failing UK state which is almost relaxed about its own failure. Scotland deserves better. I do not want the welfare reforms or years and years of austerity. I do not want illegal wars or nuclear weapons just outside. I want my country to make its own decisions about its future. An independent Scotland will be better because those who care most about it will make the decisions, not the Westminster Tories. The Scottish people will run Scotland and be responsible for their own decisions. It will be better because we care more about our nation than the Westminster Tories. That is why we run our devolved institutions better—we care about them and ensure we look after them.

After Scotland becomes independent, we will continue to have fantastic cultural relationships and ties with the rest of the United Kingdom. That is important to us and has shaped who we are as the Scottish people. We have heard about the 305 years in which we have served together, the wonderful institutions we have built up, and our great ties and associations. Those things will go absolutely nowhere. The social union is important to us as independent Scottish people and we will enjoy and build on it. It will be better because we will come together in a sense of equality and mutual respect. We will build new British arrangements and relationships and they will be better because Scotland will be an independent nation. The political union has failed Scotland. We no longer want to be tethered to a failing UK state. We can be better. We can walk tall in the world and make decisions on our own. Scotland as an independent nation will be welcomed as a full, peace-loving nation in the world community. I look forward to that day. The social union lives on; the political union is dying and it will be finished off in 2014.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Laing]

I thank the Minister and the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran), for their excellent summing up of this good and lively debate. As the argument is advanced in the country as a whole over the next two years, it will be won in the hearts as well as the heads of the people—not only the people who will have the privilege of a vote, but everyone else, who will take part in the debate and have their voices heard throughout the whole of our United Kingdom.

[Pete Wishart]

rose—

[Mrs Laing]

The hon. Gentleman did not take a single intervention from anyone and I have one minute to speak. He has said more than enough. He said that the word “separation” is chilling to him; it is chilling to me, too, and to everyone who believes that we are better together as a United Kingdom.

As far as heads are concerned, we have heard some good facts and figures this afternoon, and I hope that they will be repeated over and again so that people with a vote in the referendum understand the reality of what separation would mean for Scotland and the whole United Kingdom. As far as hearts are concerned, I turn, as ever, to Robert Burns, who wrote in the most powerful verse of his excellent poem “The Dumfries Volunteers”:

“O, let us not, like snarling tykes,

In wrangling be divided,

Till, slap! come in a unco loun,

And wi’ a rung decide it!

Be Britain still to Britain true,

Amang oursels united!

For never but by British hands

Maun British wrangs be righted!”

Question put, That the amendment be made.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

Thursday 26th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), and it is a pity that we did not get to hear the rest of his speech. SNP Members were particularly looking forward to the tour de force that his tour around Scotland would have provided. Perhaps we will have the opportunity to hear it another day.

We in the Scottish National party welcome the Lords amendments. Anything that gives more power to the Scottish Parliament will be welcome to us. At this, the last moment of the last day of the last stage of the Scotland Bill, I just want to say: what a process we have had! There are many things we could say about the Bill, but we could never describe it as being particularly exciting. It has never had much press attention in the course of the past few months. We could describe it as unambitious, uneventful or lacking the powers to grow the economy, but the main thing about the Bill is that it is so “minority Government”. It is from another day, another era—it is from the last gasp of a Unionist majority in the Scottish Parliament. It is from a day that has passed.

[Mrs Laing]

I fail to understand how the hon. Gentleman can find it unexciting or irrelevant that Members of the Scottish Parliament are being made more accountable to the people of Scotland. That is what devolution and increasing democracy are all about. I would have thought that he would be excited by that.

[Pete Wishart]

I am very grateful to the hon. Lady for her intervention. As always in these debates, she makes a colourful presence and puts her case passionately and well. I must say, however, that the Bill has been overtaken by events. Things have happened over the past year, and the one big thing that happened was the election of a majority SNP Government. Everything has changed because of that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Laing]

Perhaps I am being cynical about the hon. Gentleman’s motives; I have listened to him speaking in the House over many years.

[Pete Wishart]

I am very disappointed that the hon. Lady should interpret my kind and pleasant comments in such a way. The people of Scotland are always on tenterhooks waiting to hear what she has to say on the great Scottish issues.

[Mrs Laing]

It is a matter of fact that, since the sad passing of my mother, nobody in Scotland listens to me at all any more, but I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention and I hope that he will forgive me for misinterpreting what he said.

The fact is that this is the Parliament of the United Kingdom, and the matters that are discussed and examined here affect the whole of the United Kingdom. That is why Lords amendment 18 is so important. Just as the people of Epping Forest have no particular interest in what happens in Liverpool, Birmingham, Leeds, Hull, Cornwall or Belfast, those events affect all of us none the less. We live together on this small island, and any artificially created divisions cannot hide the fact that we are interdependent and that our economy is the economy of the whole of the British isles. Those things that affect one of us affect all of us, and that is why Lords amendment 18 is so important.

The amendment clearly highlights the equal partnership, particularly in regard to taxation and economic welfare, between this Parliament and the Scottish Parliament. I wonder why anyone would wish to go further and create an unnecessary and damaging artificial separation. Amendment 18 and the others pertaining to this part of the Bill relate to an enormous transfer of power and accountability from this Parliament to the Scottish Parliament. So it should be. As a result of the transparency introduced by the Bill, as a result of Lords amendment 18, both Parliaments will be required to examine the economic fiscal affairs of each part of the United Kingdom. I hope that those matters will therefore be clearly seen as the years go on. If separation were to take place, we would lose all the strength that has been built up over a long time. I hope, however, that it will become apparent, with more transparency and a greater ability on the part of each of our legislative Houses to examine these matters, that the interdependence of the United Kingdom brings benefits to all of the United Kingdom.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

Monday 7th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con)]

I find myself in the extremely unusual position of agreeing entirely with everything that the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) has said. That is not surprising, however, given that the amendment that was accepted by the Government approximately a year ago, before the last general election, was originally tabled by me. The right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) wisely added his name to it and accepted it as a Government amendment, and it became part of the Bill. At the time, I thought that that was the only thing that I had ever achieved from the Opposition Front Bench, but perhaps that was due to the cynicism engendered by 13 years of opposition.

I am delighted that the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West has tabled the amendment again. It was very popular with Members in all parts of the House when we debated it a year ago. It became law, and it made a difference to the way in which the general election was administered and to the timing of the extremely disappointing results of that election across the country. But if we were going to get bad news, perhaps it was as well to get it sooner rather than later. That is not the point, however. The point is that, in the operation of our democracy, it is right that election counts should take place as soon as practically possible after the close of poll.

We discovered that many excuses were being made by returning officers around the country for not undertaking their duties in a timely and correct manner. They made every excuse that they could think of, none of which proved to be correct, because, when the law was changed and they were required to act as they ought to have been acting in the first place, they did so. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say on this amendment, but I hope that I shall be able to support what the hon. Gentleman has just proposed to the Committee.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

I welcome you to the Committee, Ms Primarolo. I know how much you appreciate the convivial nature of Scottish debates, and I hope that we will do our best to behave ourselves today and to conduct these proceedings in a civil manner.

On Second Reading, we made it clear that it was our intention to improve and strengthen the Bill. I concede that, over the past few weeks, significant progress has been made in that direction. We have already had the report from the Scottish Parliament’s Bill Committee, which made a number of useful and helpful recommendations, especially those that apply to the non-fiscal parts of the Bill. I welcome those recommendations. It is perhaps unfortunate, however, that some of them cannot be properly debated because of where we are in the process. The Scottish Parliament has not even passed its legislative consent motion, yet we are here in Committee today discussing the Scotland Bill, line by line and clause by clause.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

Thursday 27th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart]

I am going to make a bit of progress because, to be fair, I have taken a number of interventions from the hon. Gentleman.

[Mrs Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Pete Wishart]

No, I am going to try to make progress, if the hon. Lady will allow me.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pete Wishart]

The Secretary of State said in response to an intervention that air passenger duty could not be considered because it is being considered by Europe just now, but it was being considered by Europe when Calman was looking at these matters as well. There is no real difference between then and where we are now.

I am not just talking about aviation duty. I am talking about the fact that only 35 of the 60 Calman proposals have survived. This is a question not so much of Calman-plus, as the Secretary of State and the Liberals like to say, as of Calman-half. Useful Calman proposals such as those on the devolution of welfare measures—including much-needed measures on immigration—on the marine environment and on taxes on aviation and aggregates have been left out of the Bill. Other Calman proposals have been significantly watered down. They include the proposals on the administration of elections, which will still effectively be reserved to this House, on appointees to the BBC and on the Crown Estate, about which we have growing concerns.

We will be constructive in trying to get this Bill through, but I really hope that the Tory-led Government will take seriously our attempts to improve it. I do not know whether Labour Members will continue to be nodding dogs as the Bill goes through, or whether they will join us in trying to improve and strengthen the Bill to ensure that we get better legislation for the people of Scotland. It most definitely needs improvement if it is to meet the aspirations and ambitions of the Scottish people.

[Mrs Laing]

The hon. Gentleman is making an important point about the aspirations of the Scottish people. He also made an important point about the financial position. Is he arguing that £800 million—or a similar figure, whatever it might be—was spent in Scotland over the past decade and that, had the provisions of the Bill already been in place, it would not have been spent in Scotland? If that is his argument, where did that money come from?

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Eleanor Laing and Pete Wishart

Tuesday 12th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mrs Laing]

Of course the hon. Gentleman may suggest that to me, and I am examining my conscience carefully in that respect. I have a lot of respect for him and he is doing well in persuading me. I am sure that he would be the first, among most Members in the Chamber this evening, to agree with me that our first loyalty must be not to our party, but to this House, to the democratic process and to the workings of our democracy, which have made ours the strong, great and fair country that it is. Our first loyalty must be to this Parliament, which has exported its fair and decent way of doing things and spread democracy around the world.

[Pete Wishart]

The hon. Lady mentions democracy and her point is spot on. How dare this mouse of a measure—this splinter of a suggestion—get in the way of the clear choice of the Scottish people? Surely that is a democratic outrage. We should have a free and fair election to decide who will be the Scottish Government, not this nonsense that is in the way, muddying the water.