Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill [Lords]

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

Wednesday 26th October 2022 Commons Chamber

[Claire Hanna (Belfast South) (SDLP)]

I beg to move amendment 6, page 1, line 14, leave out from “that” to second “and” in line 16 and insert

“respects the rights of others”.

This amendment would replace the principle taking account of the sensitivities of those with different national and cultural identities with a principle of respecting the rights of others.

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

With this it will be convenient to consider the following:

Amendment 15, page 2, line 5, after “means” insert

“the Northern Ireland Office, the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission and”.

This amendment would include the Northern Ireland Office and the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission in the definition of public authority within the bill.

Amendment 7, page 2, line 13, at end insert—

“‘rights of others’ means Convention rights within the meaning of the Human Rights Act 1998 and other international human rights standards.”

This amendment defines rights of others in reference to Convention rights and other international human rights standards.

Amendment 28, page 3, line 32 at end insert—

“(4A) The Office must comply with any directions (of a general or specific nature) given by the First Minister and deputy First Minister acting jointly as to the exercise of the Commissioner’s functions.”

This amendment is intended to ensure the bodies established by the provisions of the Bill remain accountable to guidance issued by the First and deputy First Ministers acting jointly in respect of the exercise of their functions.

Amendment 31, page 3, line 32, at end insert—

“(5) The First Minister and deputy First Minister acting jointly must annually assess and report on the costs arising from the operation of the Office in line with the duties prescribed in Section 10(4).”

Amendment 21, page 3, line 33, leave out subsection 78I.

This amendment would remove the power of the Office of Identity and Cultural Expression to establish the Government’s obligation to establish the Castlereagh Foundation (see Clause 8 of the Bill).

Clause stand part.

Amendment 8, in clause 2, page 4, line 22, leave out “have due regard to” and insert “comply with”.

This amendment would amend the duty on public authorities to one of compliance with best practice Irish language standards from one of due regard.

Amendment 27, page 5, line 18 at end insert—

“(4A) The Commissioner must comply with any directions (of a general or specific nature) given by the First Minister and deputy First Minister acting jointly as to the exercise of the Commissioner’s functions.”

This amendment is intended to ensure the bodies established by the provisions of the Bill remain accountable to guidance issued by the First and deputy First Ministers acting jointly in respect of the exercise of their functions.

Amendment 23, page 5, line 20, at end insert—

“(6) The Commissioner must exercise its functions under this Part in a manner that is reasonable, proportionate and practical, and which serves to promote mutual respect, good relations, understanding and reconciliation.”

This amendment reflects the stated intent under paragraphs 5.10 and 5.17 of the New Decade New Approach agreement for each Commissioner established under the Bill to exercise his or her functions in a way that is reasonable, proportionate, practical and conducive to mutual respect.

Amendment 32, page 5, line 20, at end insert—

“(6) The First Minister and deputy First Minister acting jointly must annually assess and report on the costs arising from the role of the Commissioner in terms of—

(a) the operation of the Commissioner’s Office,

(b) the engagement and compliance of public authorities with the Commissioner, and

(c) any other costs.”

Amendment 9, page 5, line 28, leave out subsection (2).

This amendment would remove the requirement that best practice Irish language standards produced by the Irish Language Commissioner be subject to the approval of the First and deputy First Ministers.

Amendment 10, page 5, line 31, leave out “approved under subsection (2)” and insert “prepared under subsection (1)”.

This amendment is consequential on Amendment 9.

Amendment 24, page 5, line 37, at end insert—

“(c) ensure requirements placed on public authorities are reasonable, proportionate and practical.”

This amendment reflects the stated intent under paragraphs 5.10 and 5.17 of the New Decade New Approach agreement for each Commissioner established under the Bill to exercise his or her functions in a way that is reasonable, proportionate, practical and conducive to mutual respect.

Amendment 11, page 6, line 20, leave out “have due regard to” and insert “comply with”.

This amendment would amend the duty on public authorities to one of compliance with best practice Irish language standards from one of due regard.

Amendment 16, page 7, line 27, after “means” insert

“the Northern Ireland Office, the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission and”.

This amendment would include the Northern Ireland Office and the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission in the definition of public authority within the bill.

Amendment 12, page 7, line 29, after “(N.I.))” insert

“and any public authority under the Cabinet Office that provides public services in Northern Ireland”.

This amendment would ensure key UK wide services are included.

Clause 2 stand part.

Amendment 29, in clause 3, page 8, line 27, leave out “arts and literature” and insert “heritage and culture”.

This amendment would revise and expand the functions of the Commissioner for the Ulster Scots and Ulster British traditions provided in the Bill. The Commissioner would be responsible for developing the language, culture and heritage associated with these traditions, reflecting the body of established work and existing human rights law.

Amendment 30, page 9, line 6, leave out from “subsection (3)” to end of line 6 and insert

“so far as affecting Ulster Scots”.

This amendment restores the language used to address this commitment in the New Decade, New Approach agreement. The new wording is taken from the New Decade, New Approach agreement.

Amendment 25, page 9, line 25, at end insert—

“(5A) The Commissioner must exercise its functions under this Part in a manner that is reasonable, proportionate and practical, and which serves to promote mutual respect, good relations, understanding and reconciliation.”

This amendment reflects the stated intent under paragraphs 5.10 and 5.17 of the New Decade New Approach agreement for each Commissioner established under the Bill to exercise his or her functions in a way that is reasonable, proportionate, practical and conducive to mutual respect.

Amendment 26, page 9, line 25 at end insert—

“(5A) The Commissioner must comply with any directions (of a general or specific nature) given by the First Minister and deputy First Minister acting jointly as to the exercise of the Commissioner’s functions.”

This amendment is intended to ensure the bodies established by the provisions of the Bill remain accountable to guidance issued by the First and deputy First Ministers acting jointly in respect of the exercise of their functions.

Amendment 1, page 9, line 31, at end insert—

“78SA Duty to have regard to published advice or guidance

(1) A public authority must, in providing services to the public or a section of the public in Northern Ireland, have due regard to any advice or guidance published pursuant to section 78S(2).

(2) A public authority must prepare and publish a plan setting out the steps it proposes to take to comply with the duty in subsection (1).

(3) A public authority—

(a) may revise and re-publish the plan if the authority considers it necessary or desirable to do so;

(b) must revise and re-publish the plan if relevant revised advice or guidance is published in accordance with section 78S(2).

(4) In preparing or revising a plan under this section, a public authority must consult the Commissioner.”

This amendment would place public authorities under a duty to have regard to advice, support and guidance issued by the Commissioner for the Ulster Scots and Ulster British traditions. It would also require authorities to prepare and publish a plan demonstrating how they will adhere to the duty. This mirrors the duty to have regard provision that applies to the Irish Language Commissioner giving expression to the need for public authorities to give expression to the parity of esteem principle in relation to both Commissioners.

Amendment 33, page 9, line 31, at end insert—

“(9) The First Minister and deputy First Minister acting jointly must annually assess and report on the costs arising from the role of the Commissioner in terms of—

(a) the operation of the Commissioner's Office

(b) the engagement and compliance of public authorities with the Commissioner

(c) any other costs.”

Amendment 2, page 9, line 34, leave out “facilitation”.

See explanatory statement for Amendment 5.

Amendment 3, page 10, line 17, leave out “facilitation”.

See explanatory statement for Amendment 5.

Amendment 4, page 10, line 20, leave out “facilitation”.

See explanatory statement for Amendment 5.

Amendment 5, page 10, leave out lines 24 to 27 and insert—

“(6) In this section “published guidance” means guidance published under section 78S(2)(b).”

This amendment would extend the grounds on which an individual can submit a complaint to the Commissioner for the Ulster Scots and Ulster British Traditions to cover the conduct of public authorities in relation to all the guidance issued by the Ulster Scots Ulster British Commissioner, as is already the case with respect to all the guidance issued by the Irish Language Commissioner. It would thus help restore/achieve the parity of esteem.

Amendment 17, page 10, line 29, after “means” insert

“the Northern Ireland Office, the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission and”.

This amendment would include the Northern Ireland Office and the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission in the definition of public authority within the bill.

Clause 3 stand part.

Clause 4 stand part.

Clause 5 stand part.

Amendment 13, in clause 6, page 12, line 2, at end insert—

“(3A) In the case of the absence of compliance with regard to identity and language functions by a Northern Ireland Minister or Northern Ireland department, the Secretary of State must—

(a) act to appoint an Irish Language Commissioner within 30 days, in the case of the First Minister and deputy First Minister not acting jointly to appoint an Irish Language Commissioner as laid out in section 78J of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 (as inserted by section 2 of this Act) within 30 days of the legislation coming into force or a vacancy arising;

(b) act within 30 days to approve the best practice standards submitted by the Irish Language Commissioner with or without modifications, in the case of the First Minister and deputy First Minister not approving best practice standards submitted under section 78M of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 (as inserted by section 2 of this Act) within 30 days.”

These step-in powers for the Secretary of State include a timescale whereby a decision by him or her must be taken. With this amendment the Secretary of State must act within 30 days of progress being restrained.

Amendment 14, page 12, line 16, at end insert—

“(c) a function conferred by or under section 28D of the Northern Ireland Act 1998.”

This amendment seeks to permit the Secretary of State to intervene, reflecting the commitment given in New Decade New Approach. The Irish language strategy is not included under these functions and this amendment would amend the legislation to include the Irish language strategy as a function.

Clause 6 stand part.

Clause 7 stand part.

Amendment 22, in clause 8, page 13, line 9, leave out “may” and insert “must”.

This amendment would require the Government to establish the Castlereagh Foundation.

Amendment 18, page 13, line 21, at end insert–

“(2A) The Secretary of State must, within 3 months of the passing of this Act, publish a report on the establishment or funding of any body or organisation under subsection (1).

(2B) A report published under subsection (2A) must include details of the relevant body or organisation’s—

(a) membership or proposed membership;

(b) funding structure or proposed funding structure;

(c) functions, responsibilities and objectives;

(d) compliance with Article 1(v) of the British-Irish Agreement 1998; and,

(e) compliance with the National and Cultural Identity Principles.”

This amendment would require the Secretary of State to publish a report on the structure and functioning of the proposed Castlereagh Foundation.

Clause 8 stand part.

Amendment 20, in clause 9, page 14, line 30, leave out subsection (2) and insert—

“(2) Part 1 comes into force on such day as the Secretary of State may by regulations made by statutory instrument appoint subject to subsection (3).”

This amendment would remove the concurrent powers and powers of direction granted to the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland under Part 2 from the Bill.

Amendment 34, page 14, line 31, at end insert—

“(2A) Before Part 1 comes into force the Secretary of State must lay before Parliament a report assessing—

(a) the annual costs to the public purse of–

(i) the establishment and operation of each of the three bodies constituted under this Bill, and

(ii) the relevant public authorities engaging and having regard to the three offices, and

(b) how this spending allocation gives effect to the principle of the parity of esteem between the unionist and nationalist communities.”

The explanatory notes for this Bill only provide costings for the running costs of the three new offices. This amendment requires the Secretary of State to assess the costs to the public purse both from running the three new offices and for meeting the cost of public authorities engaging with and having regard to the three new offices.

Amendment 35, page 14, line 33, at end insert—

“(4) After the Bill comes into effect, the First Minister and deputy First Minister acting jointly must—

(a) publish an annual report comparing the total public monies spent in relation to—

(i) the Irish Language Commissioner under Section 2(6), and

(ii) the Ulster Scots Ulster British Commissioner under Section 3(5), and

(b) assess the costs associated with running the Office of Identity and Expression,

to ensure that the parity of esteem is respected in the spending between the unionist and nationalist communities.”

This amendment requires Ministers to annually compare the total public monies spent in relation to the Irish Language Commissioner and the Ulster Scots Ulster British Commissioner to ensure that parity of esteem is respected in the spending between the unionist and nationalist communities. It also requires them to assess the costs associated with the Office of Identity and Expression on the same basis.

Clause 9 stand part.

Clause 10 stand part.

Clause 11 stand part.

Government amendment 19.

Clause 12 stand part.

New clause 1—Duty in relation to the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages—

“A public authority must, in carrying out functions relating to Northern Ireland, act compatibly with its obligations under the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages.”

This new clause would oblige public authorities to comply with obligations accepted by the United Kingdom under the Council of Europe Charter for Regional or Minority Languages.

That schedule 1 be the First schedule to the Bill.

That schedule 2 be the Second schedule to the Bill.

That schedule 3 be the Third schedule to the Bill.

[Claire Hanna]

Go raibh maith agat, Dame Eleanor. I rise to discuss amendment 6, tabled in my name and those of my hon. Friends the Members for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) and for North Down (Stephen Farry), as well as to speak about some of the other amendments we have tabled, including amendment 13, which we might seek your permission to press to a vote later. For the convenience of the Committee, I will comment on amendments tabled by others as well.

Amendments 6 and 7 to clause 1 clarify the issues with the clause and seek to move provisions on to a more rights-based footing. The amendments bring the Bill into line with international human rights standards and the drafted legislation worked on between the parties prior to New Decade, New Approach. The phrase in the Bill as drafted, without amendment, refers to the “sensitivities” of others, but unfortunately in Northern Ireland we know that there are people of various political hues who might be hostile to the cultural expression of others. The amendments seek to place these measures on a rights-based footing, because in the same way as there is no right not to be offended, there is not really a right for anyone not to have other people speak around them a language that they do not support.

Elsewhere in clause 1, the Social Democratic and Labour party also supports the Opposition’s amendment 15, which seeks to include the Northern Ireland Office and the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission in the definition of a public body. We have concerns about amendments 28 and 31, which locate further powers and duties with the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, which I shall expand on later. We also do not support amendment 21, which would seek to remove the proposed Castlereagh Foundation from the architecture that we are creating through the Bill and would be a further departure from New Decade, New Approach.

On clause 2, I want to speak in favour of amendments 8 to 12, which we do not seek to push to a Division. Amendments 8 and 11 focus on amending the duty on public authorities to one of compliance with best practice standards rather than just due regard. We think that the duty should flow from the St Andrew’s agreement on language rights based on the experience of Wales, and the amendments would ensure that that was the case.

--- Later in debate ---

It is hard not to draw a very painful conclusion, and I say with great sadness in my heart that I look upon the Minister as a friend, but the legislation today is here to punish us. Even at this late stage, I ask the Government to think again.

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I call the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee.

[Simon Hoare]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). I was not intending to speak in this debate, but I suddenly realised that I probably owed the Committee a small apology in that I was not able to take part in the Second Reading debate, due to having been called home for a reason.

If I may, I want to put on record my support for the Bill. It has been a long time coming, and I think it is laudable for His Majesty’s Government to bring it forward. Too often, when we have seen agreements that are part of moving the dial on Northern Ireland or of resurrecting the Executive, the agreement is seen as an event that does the trick and then gets forgotten. This was a very key part of New Decade, New Approach and the Government are right to bring it forward.

It will come as no surprise to the hon. Member for Strangford that I do not see the Bill as being an opposed to Unionists, glass half-full, Conservative Government attack, which is how he sees it. If we start from the premise that no Bill is ever perfect, any fair reading of the Bill shows that it effectively addresses the two sides of the same coin in a way that respects two different traditions and the people who have advocated for those traditions. It is an issue that has been too long neglected, and it is wise and right that the Government should do this.

I make the point, which I would certainly have made in my Second Reading speech, that I am a Welshman who attended a Welsh high school, but at a time when South Glamorgan County Council said that Welsh was a dying language, so we learned it for a year and then it was dropped. When I return to Wales, which has seen a renaissance of the Welsh language, I wish I could take part in those conversations, and I feel as though a piece of the cultural jigsaw is missing.

If we are Unionists, we do not have to be uniform. Part of the great strength of our United Kingdom comes from the cultures, the language, the music, the literature, the poetry and all those things that make us such a strong and attractive geopolitical force in the world. One does not have to be uniform to be a Unionist, and we should be celebrating those differences and those traditions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sammy Wilson]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. That controversy might indicate the political colour of some of those who populate the Northern Ireland Office, which bears out the point I made earlier.

How does the Minister believe that this Bill protects the heritage, culture, language and interests of Unionists, especially Unionists living in nationalist-dominated council areas, when the commissioner is not being given the powers to do that? Why will the Irish language commissioner have the power to require public bodies to have due regard?

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. I hesitate to interrupt the right hon. Gentleman. I have not set any time limits or restrictions, but I had hoped for co-operation to make the Committee work well this afternoon. He has now been on his feet for 19 minutes, which is a long time. I hope that he will now draw his remarks to a close, because I would at least like to call the leader of his party before the wind-ups. I hope he will show some consideration for the rest of the Committee.

[Sammy Wilson]

I will, of course, obey your request, Dame Eleanor.

Can the Minister show how that discrepancy in this Bill will give Unionists the same protection? He is welcome to get involved in the quagmire, the chaos, the complaints and the friction that this Bill will cause. He may say that the Bill will be light-touch, but I suspect he will be dragged into controversies over it time and again. A requirement to impose rather than reach agreement is not a good way to proceed. With the powers the Bill gives to the Minister, he can be sure that the default position will always be that is for him to decide. Rather than reaching a resolution on these issues, it will become yet another focus for controversy.