Building Safety Bill

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

2nd reading
Wednesday 21st July 2021 Commons Chamber

Second Reading

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Before I call the Secretary of State to move the Second Reading motion, the House will not be surprised to hear that there will be an initial time limit on Back-Bench speeches of four minutes, which is likely to reduce later in the day. I say that so that Members can cut out the middle pages of their speeches. I call Secretary of State Robert Jenrick.

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[Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. We suddenly have a flurry of activity. Interventions: hold for a moment. Secretary of State: pause for a moment. I call the shadow Secretary of State, Lucy Powell, to make her point of order.

[Lucy Powell]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I just wondered if I could get your advice. Is it normal practice that, moments before an important debate with dozens of Members down to speak, the Minister lays a ministerial statement about the matter before us that is not yet online so none of us is able to see it, therefore avoiding any scrutiny of the said ministerial statement? Is that in order, Madam Deputy Speaker?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I am sure that it is in order, and that is the question that the hon. Lady is asking me as the Chair. It is in order for the Minister to lay a written statement when he decides it is the right time to do that, but if there is a question of information that the hon. Lady is suggesting ought to be before the House in order to inform Members about the Bill that is before us now, I cannot make a judgment because I do not know what is in that statement. However, if the Secretary of State would care to answer that point, it might help the House.

[Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con)]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. All the documents that are relevant to this debate on Second Reading of the Bill are on the Table except the written ministerial statement that the Secretary of State has just referred to. For some of us who have been in the Chamber for some hours now, I am sorry, Secretary of State, but that is not acceptable.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

The right hon. Gentleman is not speaking to the Secretary of State; he is speaking to me. I cannot see what is on the Table, and the Clerk is not telling me that the right hon. Gentleman is wrong. Let us just clear up this matter.

[Stephen Doughty]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have just been out to the Table Office and they have no copy of the statement. There is a notice of a statement coming entitled “Housing Update”, but it is yet to be provided to them or online, so Members are unable to get hold of the important information the Secretary of State has just referred to.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point of order. Would the Secretary of State care to clarify the matter?

[Robert Jenrick]

I would be delighted to, Madam Deputy Speaker. A written ministerial statement will be laid shortly, which is market-sensitive. It is difficult to suggest that there is no scrutiny, because I am here before the House to explain that statement in the context of the wider debate. [Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell) will give me a few moments, I will be very happy to set out, in the remarks I am about to make, exactly what we have agreed with lenders and the position we have come to.

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[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. The Secretary of State has explained that the reason for the specific timing of the laying of the statement is that it is market-sensitive. If the Secretary of State says it is market-sensitive then I accept that it is market-sensitive. I trust that it will be available very shortly?

[Robert Jenrick]

indicated assent.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Very shortly. I am quite sure that we will be able to facilitate Members holding the Secretary of State to account for the contents of that written statement when it becomes available, because he is here in the Chamber. I trust that it will become available before the Secretary of State concludes his opening remarks.

[Robert Jenrick]

Absolutely. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I chose to make the statement directly to the House of Commons and I will come on in a moment to set out the contents of it. The written ministerial statement merely summarises that.

In the actions we have taken and those we take today, we have always prioritised public safety. As I said earlier, the Bill before us will create a strong regulatory regime for all new high-rise buildings. However, it is also important that we put the risk of a fire, and in particular the risk of a fatal fire, into context. It is very low for all buildings of all heights. Dwelling fires have reduced by more than a quarter over the last decade and are now at an all-time low. It is right that we address safety issues where they exist and are a threat to life, but we must do so in a proportionate way guided by expert advice. That is why, through the Bill, we are drawing a very clear line at 18 metres for the enhanced regulatory regime. That is on the advice of building and fire experts that those are the buildings that pose the greatest safety risks in the event of fire spread or structural failure, albeit even there the risk should not be overstated given the low occurrence of fires and the even lower occurrence of fatalities. We are also including hospitals and care homes that meet the height threshold during their design and construction.

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[Stephen Doughty]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I regret to have to raise this matter as a point of order, but the written statement that the Secretary of State has laid makes no clarification about whether this approach applies to England only, to England and Wales, or indeed to the whole UK. Given that it is UK-wide and market-sensitive—there are many leaseholders who will be concerned in all parts of the UK—and given that it applies to UK-wide lenders, with significant financial implications, how can I get an answer from the Secretary of State for the leaseholders who will be watching this debate in other parts of the United Kingdom? It would be very helpful if the Secretary of State could just confirm that point or if he would take a simple intervention to clarify it.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for what I consider to be properly a point of order. The Secretary of State has most courteously explained to the House that the statement that is now forthcoming is market sensitive. I have had a chance to glance at it and I understand that it is indeed market sensitive, so I can understand, and I think the whole House will now understand, why the Secretary of State issued it at the point that he did.

I have to say to the House that there seems to have been some delay in the Vote Office and in the workings of the House, and for that, on behalf of the House authorities, I apologise to Members and to the Secretary of State. I thank the Opposition Whips for giving me a copy, since nobody else did—

[Sir Peter Bottomley]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I am still finishing my response to the point of order, Sir Peter.

I think there are some points in the statement that the Secretary of State will wish to clarify. I am not putting a time constraint on him, as I normally would, for finishing his Second Reading speech, because in addition to that speech it would be appropriate for him to take two or three questions on his written statement.

[Sir Peter Bottomley]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The written statement has the number HCWS228; an online search brings up one with a similar number from January 2015. Could the House authorities see whether they can get the statement online so that those Members who are participating virtually also have the chance to read it?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point of order and I reiterate it. I wonder whether the House authorities have done that—I do not know but I ask them to do so immediately.

[Robert Jenrick]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker—

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[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Before I call the shadow Secretary of State, and further to the point of order from the hon. Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley), the written ministerial statement is now available on the House papers app, and it will very shortly be available on the Parliament website. I hope that means Members who are participating virtually will be able to access it. Again, I apologise on behalf of the House authorities for the shambles after the statement was put in the Vote Office, because it was not then distributed properly here in the Chamber. We cannot blame the Secretary of State for that, as I appreciate the timing was because of market sensitivity.

As I requested that the Secretary of State stay at the Dispatch Box rather longer in order to take points specifically on the statement, he has, of course, made a much longer speech than one would have anticipated and, therefore, the time limit for Back-Bench speeches will be not four minutes but three minutes. I hope Members feel that many of them have already had a chance to ask pertinent questions of the Secretary of State.