Clause 1

Edward Leigh Excerpts

Monday 12th January 2026 Commons Chamber

[Dan Tomlinson]

I am not able to comment on the specific figures that the hon. Gentleman raised, but overall the Government are spending significantly more on the NHS in this Parliament each year. That is enabled by the changes to taxation that we announced at this and previous Budgets. One of the challenges that the national health service has today is a result of under-investment in capital for too long, meaning that day-to-day spending is having to take more of the strain. So often in recent years capital budgets have been raided, including when, I should mention, the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats were in coalition. Cutting the capital budgets has left us in the difficult situation that we are in now, and this Government are seeking to turn that around.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

rose—

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Dan Tomlinson]

The right hon. Gentleman is welcome to express his views on a range of policies. On the final issue that he raises—net zero and our transition to a cleaner and greener economy—independent analysis, the Government’s Climate Change Committee and the long-term fiscal risk report of the Office for Budget Responsibility have set out clearly that not making that transition, both in the UK and internationally, comes with larger long-term costs for the public finances because of the growing costs of adapting to climate change. It is clear that we need to make that change, for the environment and for the long-term health of our public finances. The OBR’s fiscal risks report is always a good read; I hope that he is, like me, looking forward to the next edition in the summer.

[Sir Edward Leigh]

Will the Minister give way?

[Dan Tomlinson]

I will give way, but then I should make progress given that we have another group of clauses to address after this one.

[Sir Edward Leigh]

Even more important than the point made by the right hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) is the fact that, as I read recently, the average family is paying £12,000 in tax to cover the benefits bill. That is important, because we are taxing entrepreneurial people more, and they will perhaps decide to work a little less hard, so we will all get poorer. I just pray that the Government will have the guts to return to their original proposals—which the Chancellor dropped in the light of pressure—to encourage people back into work, which will mean cutting the benefits bill. I encourage the Government to be true to their original word.

[Dan Tomlinson]

I agree with the right hon. Gentleman on one point: the welfare system that we inherited was failing. Our Government need to correct the mistakes that meant welfare spending was running out of control, as it was when the shadow Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Central Devon (Sir Mel Stride), was Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. We must carefully consider the welfare system and make reforms that support people into work and ensure that the forecast budget increases are sustainable for the public finances. I agree with the right hon. Member for Gainsborough on that point.

I have not heard the £12,000 statistic before, but I would caution against such statistics, which often appear in the press. Many welfare claimants up and down the country are pensioners who receive the state pension. I do not know whether that figure includes the state pension—Members of all parties, with the exception of the shadow Chancellor, support the triple lock—or the many welfare payments for families with someone in work. We are trying to reduce the need to support working families with welfare payments, through increases to the national living wage and steps to boost productivity. I would say that that figure is a misrepresentation—not that I would accuse the right hon. Member for Gainsborough of misrepresenting the facts—because it uses the word “welfare” as a catch-all, when many people who receive support from the state need that support and benefit from it in a reasonable way, including those who lose their jobs, whom we support through jobseeker’s allowance, for example.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Luke Evans]

It is a shame that the hon. Member for Poole (Neil Duncan-Jordan) is not still in the Chamber, because he hit the nail on the head. He asked the question that I am keen to get answered and that is the reason why I have come to this debate. It is about the freezing of the thresholds and what the impacts will be on pensioners. I too am worried about pensioners suddenly being brought in to pay tax and having to do a tax return.

I am glad that the Minister saw the interview with Martin Lewis, because the Chancellor was very clear, so he has to try to answer the questions. When Martin Lewis put this case to the Chancellor, she said:

“If you just have a state pension…we are not going to make you fill in a tax return”

at any time. That is great, but how does that work? What does it look like? Where is that written down? The Chancellor went on to say:

“In this parliament, they won’t have to pay the tax…we’re looking at a simple workaround at the moment.”

That was back in November, so my curiosity was pricked to think, “Maybe it will be in the Finance (No. 2) Bill in Committee.” Yet, as pointed out by the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman, my hon. Friend the Member for Grantham and Bourne (Gareth Davies), the Bill has 535 pages, and there is no answer. I am pleased to have the opportunity to ask the Minister on behalf of my constituents how he will answer that question.

What is the workaround in play? If it is there, we should like to see it. Is there an impact assessment that goes with it to help us to understand whether people will have to do a tax return? How many people will have to do a tax return? If they will not have to do a tax return, how will we know whether they need to pay the tax? Will it simply be part of PAYE? That is a solution; it could be moved, and adjustments are already made. Will we simply say that it is an easement and write it off?

We then get to the problem of the Chancellor talking about small tax. We have no definition of what small tax looks like. This Government’s definition of it is as close to a definition as their definition of “working people” is, and we all know what the definition of “working people” is under this Government—well, actually, we do not, and that is the problem.

I am here asking the question on behalf of my constituents: what does the workaround look like? How will it take place? How will it affect my constituents? That is why I support new clause 15, which would go at least part of the way to understanding the assessment of this decision taken by the Government, but I appreciate that that is outside of the Bill. If the Government turn around and say that they do not need to do primary legislation—the best protection for my pensioners—the Minister can find another way to do it, but I look forward to hearing what that will look like in statements to the House.

[Sir Edward Leigh]

I will not make myself very popular by asking this question, but I will do it anyway. The Minister took me to task earlier because I talked about the total increase in the Department for Work and Pensions budget, which includes pensions. I think all three main political parties are traipsing around the issue of the triple lock. Frankly, if we did not have the triple lock—if there was a serious debate and we could get consensus in this House—we would not have to freeze income tax thresholds, and we could divert more resources to those really, truly vulnerable pensioners. I know that that is not a very popular point, but it is a question that we all seriously have to debate in a rapidly ageing population.

[Dr Evans]

I know that my right hon. Friend has been a stalwart in making that point. That leads on to the wider point of thinking about social care and how we will fund it. These sticky points are really important, so we need to ensure that we have this debate. The fact is that we are dealing with the Finance (No. 2) Bill in Committee. When the Government are making these choices, I am really keen to try to understand the direct impact they will have on my constituents.

At the last general election, the last Government—now the Opposition—had a solution in our manifesto to deal with this issue, which was the “triple lock plus”. That would have negated the issue at source. There is a ready-made solution if the Government would like to go for it, but I understand the difficulties of the associated cost, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) has pointed out.

That brings us full circle to where the hon. Member for Poole started. How exactly are we going to solve this issue for pensioners? Do the Government just need to be up front with them and say that they will have to do a tax return? Will they be pulled into this tax? If they will not, how?