Oral Answers to Questions

Edward Argar Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

The hon. Gentleman can have news—but not today. These are the sort of decisions that we need to consider carefully. When it comes to major infrastructure, he will be pleased to know that the Government’s infrastructure plan involves over £90 billion and that we are going ahead with it.

[Edward Argar (Charnwood) (Con)]

One of the key drivers of regional growth in the midlands has been the success of new small businesses, which rely on getting access to telecommunications as swiftly as possible. Does my right hon. Friend share my concern about the potential impact on midlands growth due to the length of time some businesses have to wait for telecoms companies to connect them? Will he press those companies to sharpen up and speed up their act?

[Sajid Javid]

I agree wholeheartedly with my hon. Friend. As a midlands MP myself, I have met many businesses from my own constituency that have experienced the same problem. It is something that both BIS and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport have discussed with BT and others. Although there are examples of improvement, a lot more needs to be done.

Enterprise Bill [Lords]

Edward Argar Excerpts

Tuesday 2nd February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Edward Argar (Charnwood) (Con)]

The Bill contains a wide range of specific provisions that are diverse in their detail but united by a common thread: a belief in business, particularly small and medium-sized businesses, as the driver of growth and jobs, and a determination to support businesses and make this country the best place in Europe to start and grow a business. Indeed, there is a determination to make this country a place where those who strive and work hard have the opportunity to flourish—something that the Minister for Small Business, Industry and Enterprise is very committed to.

The past five years have seen the deficit halve, the number of jobs go up and growth go up. The economic recovery in this country has been driven by businesses and workers, and by those who have taken the brave decision to set up a new business. We should be in no doubt that businesses have done the heavy lifting of economic recovery, and it is they, not the Government, that have delivered growth. However, the legislative and regulatory environment plays a large role in their ability to do so, which is why I welcome the intent and content of the Bill. Before my election to this House I worked in businesses that ranged from small privately owned firms to FTSE-listed companies, so this is a subject close to my heart.

On the specifics of the Bill, I welcome the establishment of a small business commissioner. I know that in the other place some called for that role to be strengthened, and I agree with the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly). None the less, I believe that the proposal represents a significant and important step forward in helping to redress the balance between small and large businesses in respect of late payment. As my hon. Friend the Member for Derby North (Amanda Solloway) set out, to a small business late payments are not some minor matter because they can have a huge effect on cash flow. A large business may be able to absorb late payments or use their lawyers to pursue payment, but for a small business it can be the difference between that company’s survival or collapse. I hope that further consideration will be given to the role of small business commissioner, and to extending its scope to include the public sector and possibly late repayments by HMRC. Although HMRC is keen to be paid swiftly, it often repays rather less quickly. Similarly, the prompt payment code continues to play an important role, and I hope that its effectiveness will continue to be monitored and reinforced.

Another sphere in which late payments can be a problem is late insurance pay-outs. Following a flood, fire or similar event, getting a swift insurance pay-out can mean the difference between a business rising, phoenix-like, from the ashes, or not rising at all. Although concerns were raised by Lord Flight about the impact of the Bill’s provisions on insurance markets, I welcome them. I hope, however—like all of us, I am sure—that insurers will seek to pay promptly, regardless of any legislative stick.

In my remaining minutes, I wish to touch briefly on other aspects of the Bill. First, this Government have an impressive record of increased apprentice numbers, and an ambitious but achievable target of many more. Apprenticeships are real jobs that teach real skills and help the long-term employment prospects of many people, and I believe that the public sector should play its part and welcome the skills of those talented young people. It is vital that apprenticeships do what they say on the tin, and that they are genuine apprenticeships in which everyone can have confidence. Like guilds in the middle ages and the original apprenticeships, the Bill seeks to protect that quality and the apprenticeship brand, which I welcome.

Finally, part 7 of the Bill increases the maximum amount of aid payable before parliamentary authorisation is needed from £10 million to £30 million, which is a sensible reflection of inflation and cost since the 1980s. I also welcome the extension of the provision to include broadband services. Broadband is increasingly a vital public service, and it is essential to businesses, especially SMEs in rural areas and places such as my constituency. I hope that such support ensures that a good deal is achieved for the customer and not just for telecommunication companies, and that public money does not inadvertently create or reinforce market share or quasi-monopolistic provision by particular telecoms providers, but instead fosters competition and drives a customer-focused service. That means not just coverage, but new firms being connected swiftly and not facing myriad delays, obstructions and a poor service when getting themselves up and running.

Britain is growing and jobs are increasing, and that success is down to the work of businesses and those who work in them in this country. I am proud to support a Government and Minister who are placing trust in business, and the creation of conditions in which it can thrive, at the heart of the Government’s agenda. The Bill helps to deliver that and should be welcomed by businesses and workers alike, and indeed by all Members of the House.

Trade Union Bill

Edward Argar Excerpts

Tuesday 10th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[James Cartlidge]

No, I am not saying that. If the strike took place with the strong support that has to be achieved under these provisions, the public would at least understand that it had full consent. They are angry about the strikes—we heard about them in evidence given to us by bus companies, rail companies and others—in which, on relatively small turnouts, massive disruption has been caused to millions of people.

[Edward Argar (Charnwood) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the Bill does not ban or prohibit strikes, but ensures that the hundreds of thousands or even millions of people who are affected by strikes in vital public services can be reassured that there is a genuine mandate for such action?

School Funding

Edward Argar Excerpts

Thursday 5th November 2015 Westminster Hall

[Edward Argar (Charnwood) (Con)]

It is, as always, a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Graham Stuart) and the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) on securing the debate. I congratulate my hon. Friend also on his leadership of the campaign, and on what it has achieved thus far. The receptiveness of the Secretary of State for Education to the case that he puts is due not only to her well known fairness and reasonableness, but to the vigour and eloquence with which he has pursued the cause, even if it has turned him grey. It is particularly good to see the Minister here to respond to the debate, as he is not only my hon. Friend but an old friend of mine who will, I know, display in this matter as in others his typical commitment to doing the right thing.

As my hon. Friend the Member for The Cotswolds (Geoffrey Clifton-Brown), among others, has said, the debate is about fairness. We all acknowledge the overall financial challenges that the country faces; today, we ask for fairer distribution of the money available—a point made with typical eloquence by my hon. Friend the Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge). My county of Leicestershire—to continue a refrain we have heard from many hon. Members about their own counties—does particularly badly under the current arrangements. It secures about 10% less per pupil than the national average, which comes to hundreds of pounds. Despite that, Leicestershire schools and the dedicated teachers who work in them—I say that as the son of two teachers, who are now retired—do a first-class job for the children of the county and my constituency. They get good results, they provide a good education, and they give young people the good start in life that is vital. However, they do that under financial pressure and that makes their job much harder.

I recently visited the excellent Thrussington school in my constituency. Like many other small village schools it finds it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to meet the demand for places for local children. That is not just because it is such a good school, but because demographic change and increasing numbers of people living in the area make it physically impossible. Consequently many local children must travel some distance to school. That is not fair to the staff who are coping with a full school, or to the parents who cope with additional costs and hassle in their daily lives getting around and getting to work. It is certainly not fair to the children. When I visit the Latimer school in Anstey tomorrow, I dare say I will hear a similar story.

I welcome the Minister’s comments, in an intervention, that there have been two funding uplifts under this and the previous Government, but that highlights the fact that the time for fixes is past and that we need a proper formula overhaul that will deliver a sustainable long-term solution for fairer funding in the coming decade. My hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Alex Chalk) noted the need for a timescale for dealing with the issue, and he is right. I suggest, as have many hon. Members, that the time is now.

The Government have done a lot to help make funding fairer. Like other hon. Members, I am grateful to the Minister and the Secretary of State for their part in that, but, speaking for my constituents, there is more to do. Let us seize the opportunity to deliver fairness and ensure that my constituents get the best start in life, as they deserve.

Trade Union Bill (Fifth sitting)

Edward Argar Excerpts

Tuesday 20th October 2015 Public Bill Committees

[Chris Stephens]

This group of amendments could be called the devolved group. It goes to the heart of principles regarding mandates—not just the mandates that trade unions derive with regard to taking industrial action, but whether there is a mandate across the nations of the UK for the Bill and for specific clauses within it. That is natural, when we have four nations in the UK with a different leading party in each.

The amendments also raise issues of consent. The devolved Administrations and local authorities are being dictated to by the Bill regarding how they conduct their industrial relations. There are issues regarding the effect on the spirit of friendship and solidarity across the UK, and regarding our mandate, which is to seek the devolution of employment law in the Scotland Bill. It is important to point out that Parliament has yet to put to the test whether employment law should be devolved to Scotland.

The constitutional issues that arise from the Bill could have serious consequences. We were told by Ministers in the evidence sessions that industrial relations are reserved, but in reality they are not. The reality is that devolved Administrations in the past have kept the two-tier workforce agreements, which the coalition Government removed for workers in the public sector in England.

[Edward Argar (Charnwood) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman not accept, though, as the Scottish Cabinet Secretary Ms Cunningham did, that industrial relations are currently reserved?

[Chris Stephens]

Ms Cunningham then went on to make the position clear about the impact that would have. The hon. Gentleman is correct that industrial relations are reserved at this point, but an electoral mandate was given to 56 MPs who were elected in May—I could argue that there are 58 MPs in Scotland who are opposed to the Bill. The Bill is a real concern, because it ignores, for example, the work of the Scottish Government in setting up the Scottish fair work convention. They are working in partnership with trade unions rather than seeing them as the enemy of the public and using the kind of rhetoric we have heard while discussing the Bill.

The Bill brings into question the impact of the industrial relations capacity. We have heard from the local authorities in Scotland. Conservative councillor Billy Hendry said in a Convention of Scottish Local Authorities statement that COSLA is opposed to the Bill. The Bill seeks to dictate to the devolved Administrations on issues of facility time and check-off. There seems little support in Scotland and Wales or in aspects of the public sector in England for the removal of check-off. Check-off is a voluntary arrangement, and for the UK Government to dictate to parts of the public sector who have an electoral mandate to conduct industrial relations is wrong. It will be interesting to hear from the Minister whether he has responded to the Scottish or Welsh Governments on the principles of consent.

More importantly, the deputy General Secretary of the Scottish Trades Union Congress at our political conference in Aberdeen at the weekend, at a fringe meeting, described the principles around facility time and check-off to be the most pernicious parts of the Bill, simply because it strikes at the heart of trade union organisation. Employers benefit from employees having good facility time. They know who they are; they are people who can deal with people and sort issues out; it leads to fewer tribunal claims, less litigation, better health and safety and, indeed it can lead to lifelong learning for employees as well. Those are the very real benefits of facility time.

There was no consultation with the public sector, this provision interferes with electoral and political mandates, and I believe that there is a lack of consent for the Bill across many parts of the UK.

Trade Union Bill (Third sitting)

Edward Argar Excerpts

Thursday 15th October 2015 Public Bill Committees

[Stephen Doughty]

Q 287 Given that you are not aware of the wider circumstances, could you perhaps write to us and tell us what happened during that dispute, given that it has been referred to a number of times, with agency workers who were brought in? I think that is directly relevant to the Bill, because there are obviously proposals that the Government are putting forward on the use of agency workers. I think it is important to understand the sort of tensions that are created. Do you think there is potential for tensions being created more widely in industrial disputes by agency workers being brought in, particularly in professions such as yours where there are specific sets of health and safety concerns and specialities?

Commissioner Dobson: I think there are tensions when agency workers are used. Our emergency fire crew contract, which provides our contingency arrangements, is provided by an external company. We contract it out in order to meet the requirements of the current employment legislation. That obviously does increase tensions, because striking workers see somebody else doing their job; I think it does increase tension.

The difficulty is, in an industry such as mine where we are providing a critical emergency service, we do need arrangements in place to cover public safety if the fire brigade is on strike. Therefore, we did not really have much choice. Other fire brigades outside London use other arrangements; but they have the opportunity to use people who maybe were retained fire fighters. We do not have that opportunity in London and we needed to make sure we had a robust contingency plan in place. That does create tensions, inevitably, but I do not think we have any option on that at the moment.

[Edward Argar (Charnwood) (Con)]

Q 288 You have both referenced how keen you are to ensure good industrial relations in the work you do and the duty you have to your staff, to protect and look after them. We have heard a number of references from both sides, and from both of you, about intimidation. Can you give us a flavour of specific examples that have stuck in your mind of the form that intimidation has taken—what was said, what was done and how that played out?

Commissioner Dobson: In terms of physical intimidation, during the 2010 dispute—and I have to be clear that this did not take place in the recent disputes—we saw the emergency fire crew operatives being refused access to fire stations and being intimidated: followed to incidents when they were actually attending emergency calls. They were followed there by striking workers and intimidated at the incident ground.

We have seen photographs being taken and posted on social media of people who were working during the strike, with comments such as, “We know who you are; we know where you live.” We have seen intimidation of some of the emergency fire crew by taking photographs of them and trying to find out what their names were, and by comments such as, “Don’t come back to London because we know who you are.” So there is a range of intimidation using social media.

All those instances where these things have happened have been reported to the police, but I refer back to the previous people giving evidence about how difficult it is to investigate and bring to a conclusion any offences over social media. So while it was investigated, unfortunately, there was not any result to the investigations; but they certainly took place and the evidence exists and actually has been shown to the Committee before.

David Palmer-Jones: I think from my side it is really the fact that it can occur away from the site itself. That is the bit that concerns us the most. We have had instances where cars have been damaged, threats of violence to our supervisor, and threats to other members of staff, who are not members of the union, who continue to work. That causes a lot of disruption and disharmony in the workforce; and we do not have many strikes, I can assure you—perhaps one in the last 10 years. When it does happen, there needs to be some form of control, very much specifically around secondary action outside the local area where the picket would happen. That is the most worrying for me.

[Edward Argar]

Q 289 I have a quick follow-up for the commissioner, and answer this as you wish. Did you have any reason to believe, or any evidence, notwithstanding that there were no arrests, that those who were either officials in or members of the FBU were those taking the photographs and carrying out that action?

Commissioner Dobson: I have no evidence to suggest that, I am afraid.

[Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

Q 290 I have a couple of very quick follow-ups to what you were saying, Mr Palmer-Jones. On the incidents you have been talking about in relation to Teesside, can you confirm that that is not industrial action?

David Palmer-Jones: It is not industrial action.

Trade Union Bill (Fourth sitting)

Edward Argar Excerpts

Thursday 15th October 2015 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

We have sittings such as this one to try to get the message across. I have got a little bit of leeway to gain back time; I am aware of that. But I would like to move on, because the next questioner is Edward Argar.

[Edward Argar (Charnwood) (Con)]

Q 363 Mr Wrack, thank you very much for your clarification there, particularly of that court case, and thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay) for his comment. Going back to the evidence from the commissioner this morning, in the course of that dispute in 2010, was access in any way to any fire station being used by contingency crews impeded by any FBU members at any point?

Matt Wrack: Again, I found it somewhat surprising that Mr Dobson presented it in that way. We had pickets on fire stations, as we are perfectly entitled to do, and there were no such barricades. There was a police presence on some occasions. We co-operated, and we had interesting evidence from the police earlier today. We co-operated with the police on every occasion that there were discussions. It is utterly misleading, as again was suggested, to say that there were any delays to emergency calls as a result of the actions of FBU pickets during that dispute.

[Edward Argar]

Q 364 That is not quite what I asked; I am grateful for that, but it is not quite what I asked. Did those pickets in any way impede any ingress or egress to and from those stations?

Matt Wrack: They were picketing their place of work. What happened in general is that the replacement agency staff drove up to the fire station and drove off.

[Edward Argar]

Q 365 So you say that they were picketing their place of work. What happened in general? Were there any occasions when access was physically blocked?

Matt Wrack: I think I have explained that. Firefighters were picketing their place of work. Replacement agency staff drove up and drove off. That is what happened. There was no pushing and shoving; if you have got images of 1970s TV programmes, that is not what happened in any of these situations.

[Edward Argar]

Q 366 Would you agree or disagree with the view—I suspect that I know the answer, but I will ask the question—that what you have just said, if we accept it, that some people drove up and drove off again, shows that those people felt intimidated by the presence of those pickets and the behaviour, which caused them to drive away again?

Matt Wrack: Let us be clear about the right to picket. The right to picket is being interpreted by some people as an attempt to intimidate. The right to picket is about trying to persuade other workers to comply with the call to take action. In this case—again, Ron Dobson seemed to forget the cause of the dispute. The cause of the dispute was that he had issued a sacking notice to 5,000 London firefighters; the entire workforce were being sacked. So you can imagine that some of them were quite irate about that. However, where we had the opportunity to speak to those agency replacement staff, we did so, and in a number of cases the police assisted us in doing that. We put our case to those agency staff; unfortunately, they carried on with the work they were undertaking.

[Edward Argar]

Q 367 I have a couple of very quick follow-ups. You will be familiar with the Carr report. Paragraph 4.66 refers to evidence provided by Assistant Commissioner Dave Brown on behalf of the London fire brigade, in which he made a number of allegations. I would be grateful for your reaction to them, either collectively or individually. He said that,

“tactics included…Stations left open or barricaded and fire alarms activated…Security codes at fire stations changed…Station gates padlocked and crews cars blocking forecourts preventing access for stand-in crews.”

Those are just a few of the number of things he suggested. Do you have any reaction to the assertions in that report, Mr Wrack?

Matt Wrack: Again, I have known Dave Brown a long time. I worked on the same watch as him at one point. His report has not been backed up by any evidence. The interesting point in all this is the question: what did the police do? If there were concerns about this and implications of serious breaches of public order, the police would have intervened. The police did not intervene. We had good relations and good co-ordination with the police throughout all the protests that took place during that dispute. None of our members were arrested. The only two arrests were of two people who decided to work through that dispute and ran over two people who were protesting. I reject those suggestions from Mr Brown, but we are happy to look at any evidence that he actually has with any detail on that.

[The Chair]

May I point out to people giving evidence and answering questions and to Members that we are approaching having used two thirds of our time? We should make it more succinct if you want to get the answers in. I call Chris Stephens.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jessica Morden]

Q 427 It is just me, then. Why, then, have we not seen the draft regulations before now?

Nick Boles: Because we were waiting to analyse the very, very substantial response to the consultation that finished, I think, only at the beginning of September.

[Edward Argar]

Q 428 I have two very brief questions, the first of which is for the Minister for Skills. Minister, you have been very clear that you respect the right to strike, as we all do, and that this Bill does not, despite some alarmist suggestions, remove that right. The NASUWT actually acknowledged in its evidence that strikes would continue. Would it be a fair characterisation to say that it ensures that all the people and families currently at risk of having their daily and working lives significantly disrupted by strike action on a very low turnout will have a slightly more balanced set of protections to ensure that strikes have genuine support?

Nick Boles: Yes, exactly. The NASUWT should know well, because there have been strikes in the teaching profession on a very low turnout and on ancient ballots. Ultimately, that just really irritates people. They accept that they are going to be disrupted in a legitimate strike; they just want to know that it is at least recent and that enough people supported it.

[Edward Argar]

Q 429 I also have a quick question to the Minister for the Cabinet Office, reflecting on the comments that were attributed to him over the summer. My recollection—I hope he will correct me and clarify this—is that he was saying, quite rightly, that if there were a major strike that would significantly impact people’s daily and working lives, the Government would do what we would expect them to do and ensure that they put the British public first and do what they could to minimise the disruptions. Is that a fair characterisation of what you actually said, Minister?

Matthew Hancock: That is a fair characterisation. It is a remarkable position for the Labour party to come to and a point of political point scoring if they think it is wrong for a Government Minister to say that we will do all we can to protect the public from the disruption of major strikes. This was in the context of Len McCluskey calling for a general strike and a series of unions making a lot of noise about that. It is perfectly reasonable for the Government to use their co-ordinating facilities to ensure that the response to a strike—especially a generalised and widespread strike—is as well co-ordinated and reasonable as possible. The idea that a Government should not use such facilities is, frankly, ludicrous.

On the same point, I would add one other thing. This is an evidence session, so it is important to bring a few facts to bear. When Mr Doughty talked about the number of working days lost, it struck me that there was something odd about saying “over the last six months”, because that is a very unusual way of using statistics. It rankled because it did not quite ring true, and yesterday I read the labour market statistics that the Office for National Statistics published. In 2011, 1.39 million working days were lost from labour disputes. In 2014, 788,000 working days were lost. When there is further debate on this, which no doubt there will be in Committee, people should probably use the ONS statistics, rather than the odd attribution made by Mr Doughty.

[The Chair]

If both sides are not being helpful, I am going to be. I want to ensure that the Members who are left to ask questions can ask questions. If they are not replied to in this Committee, I will ask the two Ministers to go away and reply to them in writing. I am going to ask Members to be very succinct in what they are asking for.

Trade Union Bill (First sitting)

Edward Argar Excerpts

Tuesday 13th October 2015 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

After this one brisk answer, we have one more question and we must then wrap up on time.

John Cridland: I do appreciate that there are a variety of organisations and a variety of voices speaking for the business community. The CBI is an important one, but it is not exclusively the voice of business. Our own organisation has consulted fully and widely through our open and transparent governance processes, and this is the view that we have come to, as reflected in both my written and oral evidence.

[Edward Argar (Charnwood) (Con)]

Q 51 Thank you for allowing me to ask a question just before the end, Sir Edward.

You have all rightly made clear your views about the important and positive role that you see trade unions playing. Equally, you have touched on the impact that stoppages have in terms of the economy, productivity and people’s lives and how it disrupts them. I agree that the ONS being able to collect statistics around indirect impact would be a benefit to all of us, wherever one stands in this debate, but it is clear and self-evident that any stoppage in a vital public service will inevitably have an impact indirectly on days lost.

As a final, broad-brush question, do you think that, given all that and given the discussions that we have already had with you, the Bill strikes the right balance between the rights of unions and members and a recognition of their positive role and the rights of businesses and the public to get on with working and producing?

David Martin: From my perspective, that balance is the absolute key to ensuring that we maximise and protect the interests of employees and passengers alike. In many respects, the Bill itself, if it comes into practice, has to be extremely transparent, very clear, very workable and not subject to legal disputes at all stages of anything happening in the future.

[The Chair]

Thank you, gentlemen. That concludes our evidence session with you. Thank you for answering our questions in such a competent and brisk way. We are very grateful.

Examination of Witnesses

Roy Rickhuss and John Hannett gave evidence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jessica Morden]

Q 60 Can I ask Mr Hannett a specific question? You have run campaigns such as “Freedom From Fear”, which is about highlighting abuse against workers in retail and other such sectors. Can you tell the Committee how the measures in clause 11 might affect your ability to run such non-political campaigns?

John Hannett: I am sure that the Committee is aware that there are two separate funds. One is the political fund, which allows us to do political campaigns, so where there is a political link clearly we identify the campaigns as such. For instance, that one is linked politically; it is also linked industrially. On one level we engage with employers about providing good, safe environments for people to work in, but there is also a political impact when we want to campaign for new legislation to protect shop workers. Therefore, we need the resources to do that. We need the right balance, and the political levy and the combination of general and political funds enable us to do that. Without that kind of resource what you are doing is effectively making it harder for unions such as mine to campaign on such issues.

What is really important for me in the question though is the transparency. In a sense, when we go for that 10-year ballot we make it absolutely clear what we spend the money on and we also, of course, let the certification officer see clearly where we spend it. I suppose that unions such as mine and Roy’s are confused about why we are in this situation when we have had a highly successful model.

Roy Rickhuss: We also ran a fairly successful campaign around betting shops and against violence towards workers and staff in those shops, and I am pleased to say that it had all-party support. It was a successful campaign. It is questionable, and I do not know the answer at this stage, whether we would have been able to run those campaigns if they had been deemed to be political and the money had needed to come out of a political fund.

We also ran a fairly successful campaign on pensions when the last Labour Government was in power. We had a company in Cardiff that went into receivership—administration—and our members lost their pensions. We ended up taking the Labour Government to the European courts to establish the financial assistance scheme. Again, would we have been able to do that had we not had a political fund? That was about holding the Government to account in terms of protecting our members and their pensions, and we did it—and always will do it—irrespective of the colour of the Government. Whether it be Labour or Conservative, we will use our funds to protect our members’ best interests and that is what it is about for us.

[Edward Argar]

Q 61 You have been very reasonable and measured in your evidence, so I thank you for that. Going back to the importance of thresholds, do you agree with Mr McCluskey when he writes to the Prime Minister:

“No one, of course, can be happy when strike action takes place—especially in services on which the public depend—on the basis of the active endorsement of only a minority of trade union members affected”,

and that that clearly helps to make the case for the proposed thresholds?

John Hannett: My view on that is, first, that the obvious thing is that industrial action is a last resort. I spend most of my time as a trade unionist problem solving rather than problem causing. Also, for a member to vote to take industrial action, it has to be a last resort. I could give you statistics, but given the time I will not. We can say that we certainly solve problems more than we go on strike.

[The Chair]

If you want to add more you can always write to us. Do not feel constrained in that sense. We are anxious to hear the whole story.

John Hannett: Thank you, Chairman. The point I would make is that if you want thresholds and turnout to be the case, you must help as much as you can to get turnout—the access, the facilities and the objective of talking to employees before they participate. But the interesting thing is that if you look at the world of work —I mentioned seven-day, 24-hour sectors—reaching out to those people is very difficult. Our members expect us now to communicate in a way we did not some years ago when people would be released from work when branch meetings took place. Now we have to use the technology to do it. You will get the thresholds up, providing you give the opportunity for people to participate.

In conclusion, it is very difficult, today, even where we have legislation for unions to be recognised, to get access to employees. The private sector is only 15% organised, and that in itself creates a problem. I have no problem with thresholds, but it is the facilities and the access that is the issue.

Trade Union Bill (Second sitting)

Edward Argar Excerpts

Tuesday 13th October 2015 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

This will be the last question: we are running out of time.

[Edward Argar (Charnwood) (Con)]

Q 127 Clearly it is in patient interests not to have treatment disrupted by action taken in respect of stoppages with a very small turnout. We heard this morning, and I think we all agree, that it would be useful if there were statistics—and we are not aware of any—that quantified the indirect consequence of stoppages in terms of days lost and disruption. In your experience, and recognising that we have not got those figures, would you assess, from your research, your conversations and the work you have done, that the impact on patients has been significant in the past?

Julia Manning: I think it has been incredibly significant to every individual who has been affected by this. The figures I have show that in 2011, when action took place, about 7,000 people had their operations cancelled and tens of thousands of people had an appointment cancelled. I think that for every one of those, it was significant.

[The Chair]

Thank you, Ms Manning, for giving evidence to the Committee.

Examination of Witnesses

Janet Cooke and David Sidebottom gave evidence.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Chair]

Order. Just before we finish, Mr Argar, you can ask a quick question, which can be replied to in writing, but please keep it brief.

[Edward Argar]

Q 216 That is what I was going to offer with your permission, Sir Alan. The question is to Mr Wilson. You touched on the 2014 dispute and ballot with Unite. Can you remind us what percentage of Unite members voted to significantly disrupt the working and daily lives of huge numbers of Londoners? I am happy for you to write if you do not have this to hand. Do you have any estimate of how many Londoners’ and others’ journeys were affected by that action over those two days?

Tony Wilson: For the second point, I would ask Transport for London, because it will give you the answer across the whole network, not just for our organisation.

[Edward Argar]

I was thinking about your firm’s services in particular.

Tony Wilson: I do not know. We are 7% of the market—

[The Chair]

Order. I am bringing this session to a conclusion now. For the last two questions, I would be grateful if you could submit written answers if you wish. Also, Mr Isaby, you could put together your paper of queries and forward that on to the Clerks or the Members directly. We will now suspend the sitting for five minutes to get the video link ready. Thank you very much, Mr Isaby and Mr Wilson. We are grateful for your attendance today.