Community and Suspended Sentences (Notification of Details) Bill

Edward Argar Excerpts

Committee stage
Wednesday 15th May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

In that case, I call the Minister, Ed Argar.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Edward Argar)]

It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Rosindell. I will endeavour not to detain the Committee too long, but I want to add my wholehearted support for this Bill introduced by the hon. Member for Newport West. I will turn to some of the points that the hon. Member for Rotherham made in a moment, although I am conscious that, while I can answer some of them, others may be for the hon. Member for Newport West to respond to. However, I will of course continue working closely and collaboratively with the hon. Member for Rotherham as the Bill continues its progress.

As has been set out, the Bill will place a new duty on offenders who are serving a sentence in the community and being supervised by a probation or youth offending team. It will require them to inform the responsible officer if they begin using a different name or change their contact information, including their telephone number or email address. The name change could be for any reason; the Bill captures not just formal legal changes of name by deed poll but, for example, the use of an online alias.

Rigorous community offender management is important in building confidence in community orders and delivering effective rehabilitation while keeping the public safe. With that in mind, we have increased funding for the probation service by an additional £155 million a year to recruit record levels of staff—around 4,000 are currently in training at different stages—so that we can bring down case loads and deliver better and more consistent supervision of offenders in the community.

Let me turn to a few points linked to that that the hon. Member for Rotherham raised. I think that the implication of one of the things she mentioned is almost daily monitoring, which would be impractical given the sheer volume of people on probation in this country, but the police and probation work closely and collaboratively where any breach or potential breach is identified.

The hon. Lady raised concerns about the use of the word “could”. That word is used because probation officers have to employ a degree of professional judgment, rather than being instructed that a particular outcome must follow, because each case is separate. Similarly, because we cannot instruct a sentencer in the courts what penalty to impose, the Bill specifies that the court “could” impose particular penalties for breach, including recall, but that would be at the discretion of the court. The reason that word is used is to highlight that, but without straying into the territory of judicial discretion in the sentences or penalties that sentencers choose to impose.

[Sarah Champion]

My problem with the word “could” is that it becomes subjective. Is there anything that the Minister thinks could be included in guidance alongside the Bill when it passes—as I hope it does—to give examples of when it should be enforced or applied?

[Edward Argar]

I think there are two points there. There is an opportunity to work with probation to give clarity, but I would hesitate to stray into the territory of “should” for a sentencer, be that a judge or a magistrate, because ultimately the courts have discretion to apply the most appropriate penalty on the facts before them. There is a slight distinction there.

As announced in the spring Budget, we are also improving our digital capability so that information on individuals’ risks will be better shared across prisons and probation, to inform key decisions and better protect the public. The effectiveness of community sentences relies on probation and youth offending teams having the ability to manage offenders in the community successfully, and that means having the right information about an offender. The Bill will help to ensure that responsible officers are given the necessary tools to keep tabs on offenders in the community so they are better able to manage them effectively.

The Criminal Justice (Sentencing) (Licence Conditions) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2022 requires offenders on licence to inform their responsible officer if they change their name and/or contact details. The Government welcome the Bill, which will build on the 2022 order by ensuring that the same duty applies to offenders serving sentences in the community. The hon. Member for Rotherham will recall that we debated a number of these issues in the Victims and Prisoners Bill Committee, possibly even in this room, recognising the challenges in the nature of individuals who commit various crimes and the question of whether they will be compliant and notify, versus the practical challenges of creating another mechanism by which they could be monitored. I am very conscious of the points that she made then—she made them forcefully and eloquently, and I suspect she will return to the issue until it is resolved to her satisfaction. I reassure her that I am conscious of those discussions and I will continue to look at that.

It is also right that swift and clear action can be taken when an offender does not comply. The enforcement provisions for the Bill are tough and reflect the seriousness of non-compliance by giving responsible officers the same powers they have in respect of any failure to comply with the requirement of a court order. If an offender fails to comply with the duty, that will constitute a breach of the order and, as we have discussed, this could result in the order being returned to court. The court could impose additional penalties, but, as I have set out, a degree of discretion is needed.

It is likely that probation would be notified about non-compliance by an external agency, such as the police, in the event the offender was arrested again. To answer the point made by the hon. Member for Rotherham, if that were the case, the default approach would be to treat the failure to notify as a breach. Practitioners will then use their professional judgment and the Probation Service enforcement policy framework to decide how best to approach that, including whether they are going to hand it to the court. As I have set out, the court would then have discretion over what penalty to impose for the breach.

In closing, I thank the hon. Member for Newport West for introducing this important Bill and I confirm the Government’s full and continuing support for it.

[Ruth Jones]

I am grateful to my colleagues across the House who have supported the Bill and joined us for this important stage of its journey. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham, who has been a doughty and tenacious campaigner on behalf of victims and survivors. Her wisdom and experience is very much appreciated, and she has raised some important practical points that I am sure we will seek to take forward as the Bill moves to the other place. I will seek to speak to her and others who want to make the Bill as robust as possible, because at the end of the day we do not want loopholes in legislation.

I am grateful to the Government for their support and would like to pay tribute to the Minister for putting his money where his mouth is. He helped to secure support for the Bill from some of his Back-Bench colleagues. To share what that support looked like, I will tell the Committee that the Minister spent some time walking around Portcullis House with Adam Jogee from my team, seeking gently to persuade people. The fearsome twosome made for a few raised eyebrows from people from all parties, considering that Adam Jogee is the Labour candidate in Newcastle-under-Lyme at the next general election. Luckily, there was no talk of defection either way, so that is good.

[Ruth Jones]

I am saying nothing.

To be serious for a moment, I am grateful to the officials in the Ministry of Justice for their work in supporting us to this stage. They were enormously helpful to me and my team. I know that they will be watching proceedings this morning and I want them all to know that I am very grateful indeed.

Thanks go to my team, too. This is my first private Member’s Bill, as I have already said. Taking it through the House since my election has been a brilliant learning experience, although I am not sure that I would want to repeat it. By supporting the Bill today, the Committee has an opportunity to improve the ability of probation and youth offending teams to monitor offenders in the community effectively and to better protect the public. This is a good policy. It should have been done long ago and I urge colleagues to give the Bill their full support today.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Question proposed, That the Chair do report the Bill to the House.

[Edward Argar]

I thank the hon. Member for Newport West and hon. and right hon. Members on both sides of the Committee. I thank you, Mr Rosindell, for chairing proceedings today, the officials in my Department who have worked on the Bill, Adam from the hon. Lady’s office, and the Clerks and other officials of the House who have assisted in the passage of the Bill to this point.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly to be reported, without amendment.