Edward Argar
Main Page: Edward Argar (Conservative - Melton and Syston)Department Debates - View all Edward Argar's debates with the Ministry of Justice
(3 weeks, 2 days ago)
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Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
As always, it is a real pleasure to serve under your chairship, Ms Vaz. I thank the hon. Member for Southgate and Wood Green (Bambos Charalambous) for setting the scene so well, and all those who contributed.
We do not have this sentence in Northern Ireland, but I have met some of the groups that have been lobbying here, and they have given me some idea of the process. I want to make a few helpful contributions to this debate and endorse ideas that others have put forward.
There is definitely a need for reform and a review of the IPP sentence system. Others with much more knowledge than me—especially the hon. Member for Southgate and Wood Green—have outlined that well. In Northern Ireland, of course, some prisoners are in shockingly similar positions, so I want to add to this conversation.
It is a pleasure to see the Minister in his place. He and I have been friends for many years. We were brought together not just because we are MPs but because we are Leicester City football club supporters; we were the Leicester City House of Commons football supporters club. There were not many of us—perhaps there are not many more now, but there are a few more Leicestershire MPs, so we have maybe half a dozen supporters now.
It is also a pleasure to see the Minister—
Jim Shannon
The shadow Minister—absolutely. We sometimes forget that time has elapsed. It is nice to see him in his place too.
It is clear that IPP sentences remain an issue. The House of Commons Library prepared an excellent briefing for us, which helped us bring together our thoughts. As of 31 March 2024, there were 1,180 unreleased IPP prisoners and 1,616 recalled IPP prisoners in custody in England and Wales—a total of 2,796. Given the accommodation issues in prisons, it is clear that we must look at this integral part of the system and the process as we try to find solutions and move forward.
As of March 2024, all but 13 unreleased IPP prisoners had passed their tariff date. The pressure caused by those sentences on the system must be addressed, but we cannot ignore the need to ensure public safety. Although the system and the tariffs must be looked at, the safety of the general public is key, so we must ensure that anybody who is released is not a danger to them.
We could get into the whys and wherefores—the reasons our prisons are overrun. That is not what this debate is about, but I have heard them all from the concerned victims of crime when the perpetrators are released early. When I ask questions of the Minister in the Chamber, I always focus on the victims, and I wish to do that today. It is very important that we do not forget them as we try to find a solution for IPP prisoners.
The main issue behind the complaints is not justice, but fear. The victims are frightened, and the necessary changes and reform must have three foundational principles: justice, rehabilitation and the victims. They are on an equal footing, although I always focus on the victims.
I understand why we are having this debate. It is incredibly difficult to factor in unended prison sentences when planning the prison system, but we must ensure justice and listen to victims’ voices when we reform this system. When these people are released automatically, they must not be left in the midst of a community that has no way forward. Resettlement after prison terms have been served is an issue throughout the UK, so there are things to be done and put in place before anyone can be released from prison.
The Government need to make changes, but they must satisfy those three core principles. My plea for prison reform throughout the United Kingdom is that it must meet the principles of justice and rehabilitation. Importantly, we must listen to the voices of victims. It is not an easy task. The Minister has got a big task ahead of him. I am quite sure he will be able to respond to that, but these things have to be done correctly, wisely and sensitively. I suppose that is really what I am asking for. Now is the time to bring about those steps.
Edward Argar (Melton and Syston) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Vaz, and a privilege to speak in today’s debate. Doing so from the Opposition side of the Chamber takes some getting used to, though I fear I may have time to get used to it. I am very pleased to see the Minister here; I know him well and he is a thoroughly decent and able man, so it is a pleasure to see him back in the House after a brief absence from this place.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Southgate and Wood Green (Bambos Charalambous) on securing this debate on an issue on which there are strong and sincerely held views. I know the hon. Gentleman well. He spoke eloquently and with typical decency and humanity. Before moving to the substance of the debate, as a Leicestershire MP I say to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) that he and the Minister might have another ally in their footballing cause in this House.
[Clive Efford in the Chair]
As we have heard, the IPP sentence has understandably been called a stain on our justice system, not least by my predecessor in office, the former Lord Chancellor Alex Chalk, among others. It is a sentence that can keep people essentially in limbo in what could be termed preventive detention, not because of something they have done, but because of something that they may do.
The sentence was brought in under the previous Labour Government by the then Home Secretary, David—now Lord—Blunkett. I take this opportunity to pay tribute to him for what he has done subsequently. He has become one of the greatest advocates for reform, which speaks of his integrity. It takes a big person to acknowledge the botched introduction of the legislation in 2005 and the error that was made; it speaks well of him that he has been willing to do so.
A decade on from the 2012 abolition, the Justice Committee report of September 2022 was hugely important in what it said and the look it took at this issue. It made a number of constructive recommendations, which the previous Government considered very carefully. I am pleased that in the final days of the previous Parliament, a consensus was reached that enabled the then Victims and Prisoners Bill to progress into legislation. I am grateful to the now Government for the constructive approach they took in those final days. Changes to the IPP sentence were a key part of that.
The hon. Member for Southgate and Wood Green and the hon. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) called for those changes to be enacted. That has already been done through that legislation, reducing the licence period from 10 years to a review at three years, reflecting what the Justice Committee said—although going a bit further than the five years it suggested—with the Parole Board then considering the termination of the licence. There is a presumption of termination, but it is a rebuttable one were there to be any other considerations to be taken into account. Were that not acted on after the three years, after a further two years the Secretary of State must terminate that licence, unless there had been a recall during that period. Those changes have already been made, and I believe the implementation was carried out relatively recently by the new Government.
That new test creates a presumption for licence termination unless public protection considerations mean that the Parole Board deems that licence to be needed. There is a hugely difficult balance to be struck, rightly, between the challenges the hon. Member for Southgate and Wood Green, among others, set out and the challenges that the sentence poses—to hope, and to the ability to see a way forward and make progress, for those serving way beyond the time that would be handed down under the current sentencing regime for the equivalent crime.
That must be set against public protection considerations, which must also be at the heart of the approach. Where the Parole Board has deemed it will not agree the termination of the licence, that is because the Parole Board has refused on the grounds of public protection. We have heard today of the huge impact that the nature of that uncertainty, lack of hope and clarity has on those serving IPP sentences.
That lack of hope has an impact on those people’s mental health. The nature of the sentence has a huge impact not just on individuals but on their family, friends and others. The right hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) set that out very eloquently, as he does. I must always be careful in lavishing praise on the right hon. Gentleman, as it will probably not do my political career much good, but I found myself reflecting carefully on what he said because he made his point in a measured, and very human, way. This is why the changes contained in the Victims and Prisoners Act were needed.
However, although the Justice Committee recommended resentencing, that would potentially see those whom a parole board had very recently considered not safe to release on public protection grounds released immediately, even if that went contrary to the board’s view. Just last week, in her response to questions following the statement she made to the House, the new Lord Chancellor set out her view that His Majesty’s Government continue to oppose resentencing, as set out in the Justice Committee’s report.
The hon. Member for York Central highlighted the huge importance of progress—of people being able to see their progression towards release and the termination of their licence. Engagement and support is absolutely central to that. The changes to licence times, and the approach to licence termination, will help people progress, but it is important that we reflect, as the hon. Member for Strangford said, not just on those IPP prisoners but on the victims of those crimes, and it is right that we consider both in the round.
Before I turn to that, I think we are beginning to see some progress. When this matter was debated in the context of the Victims and Prisoners Bill, the figures were that around 3,300 IPP prisoners were still detained; the latest figures from the House of Commons Library show that there are now just under 2,800. That is a degree of progress. Equally, it is important to remember that at that time about 1,200 had never been released or had the opportunity to make progress and be released, so more progress needs to be made.
I will put a number of questions to the Minister, and I expect he will respond in his typically helpful and constructive manner. Can he set out what progress is being made on the action plan? I think the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood (Lauren Edwards) touched on this, but my understanding is that, with the passage of the Victims and Prisoners Act through Parliament, it was deemed that there might be an interaction between that and the action plan. That explains the delay: the plan would have been published earlier this year, but the changes made in the Act were—and are—significant. I would welcome the Minister’s reflections on that.
The Liberal Democrat spokesman, the hon. Member for Winchester (Dr Chambers), clearly and eloquently set out the importance of mental health considerations in this context. Mental health can have an impact both on those with an IPP sentence and on their families and friends, and there is a need for mental health support and care to enable that progression, both inside prison and on release so they can continue to abide by the terms of the licence. What support is available to IPP prisoners before they appear before the Parole Board to best demonstrate what they have achieved?
If victims anticipate a release date further in the future, they might well be concerned about what happens if a licence is breached, or if there is suspicion of that. How is that reported—to probation, or to the police—and how is it acted on? What action would be taken? Once a licence is terminated, would the victims’ understanding be right that at that point they have no further options, because that person is deemed to have served their time and to be a free citizen?
To conclude, Mr Efford, I am conscious that the previous Lord Chancellor continues to look very carefully at the issue. We saw the approach he took in the Victims and Prisoners Act, and he was clear that he would always continue to look carefully at any changes recommended by Committees or others, ensuring that balance between justice for IPP prisoners and addressing the concerns of victims and public protection. Will the Minister confirm that he and the new Lord Chancellor will continue to adopt a pragmatic and measured approach in considering this incredibly challenging issue?