Employment Rights Bill

Earl of Clancarty Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 5th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to add my support to Amendment 201, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, to which I have added my name in an expression of cross-party support for this very sensible endeavour. In doing so, I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, for his tenacity on this issue, as well as to the hard work over many years by the Heritage Railway Association and the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Heritage Rail, of which I am a member.

As the noble Lord outlined, he has been campaigning on this issue, along with those colleagues, for a number of years, including through the Private Member’s Bill that he brought in the previous Parliament. It was debated in this House when I was Heritage Minister but was responded to for the then Government by my noble friend Lady Stedman-Scott. She, and indeed all the noble Lords who spoke in the Second Reading debate on that Private Member’s Bill, spoke very sympathetically about it. My noble friend Lady Stedman-Scott spoke also with fondness of the Kent and East Sussex Railway, which passes very close to where she lives. Speaking from the Labour Front Bench, the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox of Newport, who also mentioned the Talyllyn Railway and the Pontypool and Blaenavon Railway, said in her remarks from the Opposition Front Bench then:

“I have little doubt that achieving and delivering the desired objectives will eventually be managed, whether it is through this Bill or by the Government’s hand”.—[Official Report, 15/7/22; col. 1724.]


Sadly, that “eventually” is still outstanding, and I hope that the Government will take the opportunity of this Bill to achieve what the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, and others have been campaigning for so long.

The noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, set out very clearly the legal position as it stands, as well as very powerfully the beneficial impact that heritage railways have in communities up and down the country: the social skills that they provide to young volunteers; the employment that they offer in rural areas; the linchpin that they often are to the visitor economy in their parts of the United Kingdom.

It is very welcome that, as the noble Lord highlighted, both the Health and Safety Executive and the Office of Rail and Road have made clear that they would not seek to enforce the 1920 Act to prevent children, women or young people volunteering on heritage railways. But the point, as the noble Lord rightly said, is that this confusing provision remains on the statute book. That has a potentially chilling effect for the voluntary organisations that look after our heritage railways. They are dependent on volunteers, not just for restoring and running locomotives, welcoming the many visitors from around the world who come to this country to enjoy them, but also the volunteer trustees and custodians who have to get their heads around the legal and regulatory position in which those organisations are operating. They take their duties in relation to the safety of the staff and visitors to heritage rail very seriously indeed, and the Heritage Railway Association does excellent work in providing advice and guidance to its member railways. But we should do our bit as legislators to make the job of all those volunteers easier by making sure that the law is up to date and clearly understood.

Amendment 201 does not seek to repeal the 1920 Act but to amend it, to put beyond doubt that it does not prohibit women, young persons and children from volunteering on our heritage railways and heritage tramways. The noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, referred in the previous exchanges he has had with many Governments that one of the arguments against doing this is “unintended consequences”. I have seen that many times myself in the briefings that I was given as a Minister at the government Dispatch Box. Often unintended consequences are also unspecified ones. It is hard to think what the unintended consequences might be, but the noble Lord has very sensibly drawn Amendment 201 very tightly in order to obviate that problem, so I hope the Government will look favourably upon it.

We all want to encourage volunteering, not just to help these cherished organisations to continue to bounce back from the pandemic and the challenging time that they had during Covid-19 and the challenges they face in relation to the supply of coal; their very purpose is to pass on to future generations an appreciation of our industrial past, the vital role that the railways played in the history of our nation, and to use the scientific and engineering advances of the past to inspire new generations to come up with world-changing advances of their own. As the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, said, some 22,000 volunteers are involved in keeping our heritage railways going, but too few of them are women or young people. The sector very much wants to welcome volunteers from an ever-wider background, and this piece of more than 100 year-old legislation stands in the way of their valiant efforts.

This is the year in which we are celebrating Railway 200, the bicentenary of the first passenger rail journey between Stockton and Darlington, in my native north-east. I am very pleased to see my noble friend Lord Mendoza in his place. Historic England, which he chairs, is among the many organisations that are supporting Railway 200 with great enthusiasm to inspire new generations to get involved in our heritage railways but also to inspire them in the exploits of the future.

So, as we mark that important 200th anniversary, I hope we can finally take the opportunity to amend this law, which is already more than 100 years old and which has caused confusion for too long. I know that the Minister has a background in rail, and I hope he will look favourably on this amendment from his noble friend and agree to discuss with both of us how we might take this opportunity, finally, to solve the problem that he has been seeking to address for so long.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, briefly, I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner. I certainly do not have the expertise that he has in heritage railways, but steam railways are an important part of this country’s heritage and, as each year passes, that importance surely grows. We are getting closer to a time when there will be no one with a personal memory of such trains in their working life. As well as being an enjoyable activity for interested and enthusiastic children and young people, this is also an educational opportunity for the next generation, as the noble Lord, Lord Parkinson, says, in supporting our heritage—and support for our heritage is something that this Government have pledged to give. This is an instance that shows the world of work in all its manifestations as a very varied one, including voluntary work undertaken by young people. I hope that the Government show some flexibility in this regard and accept the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I shall also briefly support this amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, has made the case very well, well supported by my friend Lord Parkinson of Whitley Bay. The noble Lord., Lord Faulkner, will recall how we worked together to save Thomas the Tank Engine when we were having difficulty getting fuel for the heritage railways. I always like to take the opportunity of encouraging this extraordinary bit of our heritage, and I think this very simple and minimal amendment would help with that.

--- Later in debate ---

Moved by

[The Earl of Clancarty]

204C: After Clause 54, insert the following new Clause—
“Review: impact of employment law relating to casting directories and digital casting platformsWithin six months of the day on which this Act is passed, the Secretary of State must commission a review of the impact of employment law relating to casting directories and digital casting platforms on performers in the creative industries.”

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the support of my noble friend Lord Freyberg, and the noble Lords, Lord Hendy and Lord Cashman, who unfortunately cannot be here today, and for the discussions I have had with them and other colleagues in the House, including the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Hudnall, who I see her in her place, and with relevant industry representatives. I am also grateful for the meeting that my noble friend Lord Freyberg and I had with the Minister and her team on not just this but other areas of the creative industries in relation to the Bill.

This debate has been prompted by the ongoing dispute between Equity and the casting directory resource Spotlight around the levels of charging that Spotlight makes for the inclusion of performers in its now online directory. I declare an interest as my daughter is at drama school and signed up with Spotlight. Equity believes that Spotlight charges too much for this service and is bound by both the Employment Agencies Act 1973 and the Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Businesses Regulations 2003. Equity believes that, at the very least, Spotlight should not be charging more than it costs to maintain the directory. This dispute has resulted in a class action brought last year by Equity against Spotlight, and a High Court hearing is scheduled for next month.

I will not say anything about how the court case should or will pan out, and I am sure that the Minister will be equally as careful in her response in that respect. What I can say is that things very much came to a head in 2023, when Spotlight tried to launch its so-called “premiere service” at a time when we had only just emerged from Covid. This was widely criticised within the industry as invoking a two-tier membership which would only benefit the more privileged. To its credit, Spotlight paused this service, but there is no doubt that some damage had been done in terms of trust.

Equity says that the charges that Spotlight makes are their members’ number one concern and that, further, Spotlight is exploiting its monopoly position. However, there is a strong argument for a single, recognisable go-to platform for professional actors and other performers. This is a really important point, otherwise it could cost actors a lot more if it becomes necessary to sign up to more than one platform. This is a role that Spotlight has fulfilled for almost 100 years and continues to fulfil. I should say that, as far as I can ascertain, there is no substantial criticism of the service that Spotlight or indeed other platforms provide; this is a dispute about costs.

One potential outcome of the court case is that performers will not have to pay anything at all for inclusion in such directories. However, this raises very problematic concerns about how those moneys are made up for if that should be the case, as well as there being potentially wider implications beyond the entertainment industry.

I ask two things of the Minister. The first is very simple and modest: that the Government keep a watching brief on this. We may well return to this after the court case, and I will leave it to my noble friend Lord Freyberg to provide particular arguments about why we should have the review that the amendment itself asks for.

Secondly, and the reason for raising this issue at the present time, is that as I have tried to show, this dispute has not come out of the blue. I therefore ask the Government whether they believe that a legally enabled mechanism might have been useful in this instance and potential future instances in order to resolve such disputes and avoid court proceedings, which is always a nuclear option. In that respect, I listened with great interest to the previous debate on the group led by the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, and wonder whether the Minister has a response to that. I beg to move.

[Lord Freyberg (CB)]

My Lords, I will speak in support of Amendment 204C. I thank my noble friend Lord Clancarty for tabling the amendment and I am grateful for the constructive discussion that he, the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Hudnall, and I had with colleagues, industry representatives and the Minister and her team. Like my noble friend, I do not intend to comment on the ongoing legal proceedings between Equity and Spotlight; that is rightly a matter for the courts. However, I believe that the situation that has prompted this amendment highlights an underlying tension that is worthy of review: whether the existing employment law and regulatory framework remain fit for purpose in today’s digital casting environment.

--- Later in debate ---

The Government understand the importance of the conduct regulations and the wider legislative framework applicable to employment agencies and employment businesses, and are committed to keeping them under review. Any review of the framework will look at the framework in the round, and impacts on different sectors and industries will be considered. For this reason, I ask the noble Earl to withdraw his amendment.

[The Earl of Clancarty (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response. He did not answer my question about a legally enabled mechanism, although I think it was probably answered at the end of the previous debate.

I thank all noble Lords who have taken part. I think the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Hudnall, about the delicate ecosystem is hugely important, and we upset that ecosystem at our peril. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hendy, for what he said about collective bargaining. That is something that we perhaps ought to be looking at, nevertheless. The claim that the noble Lord, Lord Freyberg, repeated—that 30% of radio adverts are now AI-generated—is quite shocking. This is yet another stress on our artists, without remuneration. That leads me to my final comment, which is that it is probably not a coincidence that this dispute is happening at a time when, after 14 years when the subsidised arts sector, so important at the grass-roots level—the entry level for young performers for theatre, television and film—has been torn to shreds, when there are far fewer jobs in this sector and fewer new theatre productions across the country. Although that is not a justification for any particular stance taken, it is, nevertheless, a significant part of the wider story.

I hope that, with the spending review, this damage will start to be repaired, because what price employment rights for employees if there are no jobs to go to? I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 204C withdrawn.