Infrastructure Bill [HL]
Debate between Earl of Caithness and Lord Berkeley(9 years, 10 months ago)
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The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, that these amendments do not do very much for the Bill. All these points were going to be covered anyway. I do not think that the process over the past two weeks has done politicians any good at all. It was a hurried amendment in the Commons and the Government, under Liberal pressure, gave way. We now have a cobbled together lot of amendments which did not give the other case a decent chance for discussion. If anybody reads last Monday’s Commons Hansard, it is not an impressive debate. We have not had a sensible opportunity here, although the whole framework of what we are discussing has been discussed ad nauseam in this House.
I would like to ask my noble friend, particularly about item 6 in column 1 regarding what will take place in other protected areas, how many miles of coal-mine tunnel are under protected areas in national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty? Of course, we must remember that these would not have been allowed under this amendment: the fracking pipeline is only about 6 to 9 inches, whereas a coal-mine tunnel is considerably more.
My noble friend Lord Framlingham has just mentioned ancient woodland. Will marine nature reserves will be classified as protected areas? How many more restrictions will there be on the industry? My noble friend the Minister was absolutely right when she said that health and safety risks can be managed with best practices. We need to show those best practices for the rest of Europe to follow.
Returning to point 6, is this a precedent for future development? If you are not allowed to drill a 6 to 9-inch pipeline a thousand feet down, presumably the Government will not build HS2 which will go smack through the middle of the Chilterns, an area of outstanding natural beauty. There will be 11 kilometres of tunnels there. It will do considerably more damage than any whipstocking under an AONB from a small well. Presumably we will not have any more development. The Liberal party has closed the door on development in national parks and closed the door on the opportunity of growth. I think that a lot of people will use item 6 as a precedent in order to stop any future development at all.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, I follow the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, about geothermal plants. People may have read an article in the Times last week on 2 February about the Eden project, which is trying to develop the geothermal plant mentioned by the noble Lord, drilling several miles underground. It says in the article—it is quite surprising to me—that the water that will come out will eventually be 180 degrees centigrade, which is well above boiling point. That is wonderful. It would heat 4,000 homes and all the biomes of the Eden project. I hope that this geothermal drilling—which is purely water based, I think; there are no chemicals or anything else—will not be caught by these various amendments. To quote Michael Feliks, chairman of the Renewable Energy Association’s geothermal group:
“It would be a shame if geothermal energy ended up as collateral damage in a debate about shale gas fracking.”
It is a completely different thing. It is drilling, and it should be allowed under the normal planning procedures rather than coming into this Bill at all.
Energy Bill
Debate between Earl of Caithness and Lord Berkeley
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, I support this important amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, has fully and clearly outlined the reasons behind it. Many of the concerns probably stem from misunderstandings, intentional or not, as to what Ministers, in particular, mean by the word “competition”. We hear that word a lot, usually in connection with the price consumers pay for their power, rather than the competition between the generators, or the unfair competition that results from the vertical integration between retail and the generators, which we discussed fully on Report.
The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, is right to say that trust has broken down. There is a complete lack of transparency, and I do not think that the present structure is fit for purpose. Conflicts of interest seem to abound. I am still surprised that, apparently, Ofgem either does not have the powers or chooses not to use them. It should have done so long ago. Even if there is to be a competition assessment, why do we have to wait for it? Why has it not been done before? However, we are where we are, and as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, said, the amendment would be an important addition, as it would avoid several years’ delay if primary legislation were required before any action could be taken.
I would go one step further. If the Minister does not accept the amendment I shall suspect that the Government are completely in the pocket of the big six, and do not want it because it would cause trouble. They are more frightened of the lights going out—that is what the big six have said would happen—than they are willing to establish a structure for the industry that will take us forward into the future. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say in reply to the amendment.
The Earl of Caithness (Con)
My Lords, I must speak against the amendment. My noble friend Lord Jenkin made some very good points about trust and getting more competition. That is absolutely true. However, competition narrowed considerably under the previous Labour Government. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, have waxed lyrical during our discussions but we ought to recall that the previous Secretary of State for Energy under the Labour Government—Mr Edward Miliband—did absolutely nothing to correct the situation and refused to refer any of the energy companies to the Competition Commission.
My concern is that this amendment is the wrong way to solve the problem highlighted by my noble friend Lord Jenkin because it would take away parliamentary democracy. The amendment refers to,
“a formal review of the regulation of competition”.
That formal review could be held at any time. Let us imagine that we have a Government whom none of us in this Chamber likes. If the amendment is passed, they will turn to this new clause and announce that they will carry out a formal review. The formal review will have whatever outcome they want and they can implement its findings without primary legislation. That would take away a hugely important role not just of this House but of the other place.
Lots of little things could be done by secondary legislation. Having been a Minister, I am sure that officials and civil servants have already worked out as many areas as possible that can be dealt with by secondary legislation. However, very significant changes may arise which need to be properly debated in both Houses of Parliament, but which could escape that close scrutiny if this amendment is passed. If a future Government of whatever persuasion were to use this new clause, I can imagine the row that would erupt in this House and the complaints that would ring around this Chamber that there had been a lack of opportunity for debate, particularly from the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. We should not put ourselves in that position.
Energy Bill
Debate between Earl of Caithness and Lord Berkeley
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I could not help but smile when I heard my noble friend Lord Deben start his peroration to us because my mind went back to the 1980s when House of Lords Committees were doing exactly the same as they are doing today in a very effective way. My noble friend happened to be a joint Minister with me on a couple of Bills. He did not like what we did then I seem to recall. I am very glad now that he thinks we were right all along and doing a very good job in the 1980s as well as in 2013.
Turning to the amendment, I was interested by what the noble Baroness said because that was not how I read her amendment at all. She said, particularly when she intervened just now, that she did not want to drive coal out. But the effect of her amendment would be to drive coal and gas out and rely solely on renewables. The way that she phrased things at the end was much more balanced. She is a great crusader for renewable energy, but having read her amendment, I thought, “Well that’s great: the nuclear industry has the best advantage now. We can build a whole lot of nuclear plants because they have no carbon and that would be extremely good”.
I have always supported the nuclear industry. It is a pity that the previous Government did not support it more fully. We might not now be in the potential difficulties that we face, which my noble friend Lord Jenkin outlined in his amendment. Given what the noble Baroness said later in her intervention, I look forward to what the Minister has to say.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, I support my noble friend. The amendment only says “prioritise”: it does not say only lowest-carbon providers should be involved. She has a very good point. The amendment, as other noble Lords said, is not the answer, but it does enable us to have a debate. Since most of the low-carbon providers are probably the independents, which are not part of the big six, this rather confirms the argument that I put in an earlier debate on Amendment 55, I think, that it would be fairer if there was a separation. There is a wonderful potential for the big six to keep many of the low-carbon providers out that they do not own. I look forward to hearing a little more from the Minister about how this can be resolved.
The Earl of Caithness
Given that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, wants to formalise this proposal and put it in the Bill, does he anticipate that members of the panel, and the staff, should be paid? If so, is that going to be pensionable? If that is the case, where is the money coming from?
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, I would like to speak briefly in support of the amendment. I see it as a way of advising the parties on the details in the contracts, which are quite often unclear or not there at all. As we have debated before, and many noble Lords have said, we are dealing with some very large companies and very large amounts of money are at stake. So I think there is a comfort in having something like this, but the key is probably who will be on the expert panel and what their background, experience and history will be.
The Minister said in her response to the last amendment that the Government took independent advice on the strike price and scrutiny from technical experts. I would like to ask who they work for, or have worked for, because I am afraid that that sometimes colours how one thinks about these things and how they might like to think. If they are seconded from the big six, as consultants or something, how independent are they? It would be very helpful if the Minister could write to me and say who these people are, and who they work for or have worked for. At this stage, it would give people a lot of comfort to know that there was something like this—an expert panel to look at these things and form an independent view on things such as strike prices and all the other things in Clause 2. I do not think that Members of either House, in the Chambers or the committees, will want to look at those things in too much detail.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her reply and am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken on the amendment. I did not expect that it would be accepted but we have had a good debate. The noble Earl, Lord Caithness, indicated that I had a go at him for not liking windmills, which is not true; I did not mention his name.
The Earl of Caithness
You commented that you did not like people who said that they did not like windmills; I just fall into that category and am happy to be there.
Lord Berkeley
Perhaps I may suggest that if the cap fits, wear it. More seriously, as regards whether the specified period is 30 years, 20 years or whatever, I worked briefly on North Sea oil projects 30 years ago, some of which did not last that long. My noble friend declared her interest and I am sure that windmills will need regular servicing in that time. The key question after they are built is whether they will continue to operate, produce good electricity when we want it and make a good return for their investors. We have had a useful debate and I shall mull over what noble Lords have said. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Marine Navigation Aids Bill [HL]
Debate between Earl of Caithness and Lord Berkeley(13 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Berkeley
My Lords, that is an interesting question. When I quoted the chief executive of the Harwich Haven Port Authority, I quoted only part of what he said. He also said:
“This action by four major carriers has already deprived the General Lighthouse Fund of £2.4M in annual light dues”.
He did not estimate the reduction in business for the Haven ports, but the noble Lord will appreciate that, if four major container lines cease coming into the UK but go to the continent—Rotterdam, Antwerp or Hamburg—and feeder across, there will be a serious and significant reduction in jobs. Of course, shipping lines take extremely seriously even small changes to the amount that they have to pay.
The Earl of Caithness
The noble Lord mentioned making amendments. Will he tell us in precise detail what parts of the Bill he proposes to remove?
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed to the Bill. I am also grateful for one or two interventions, because it was a slightly unusual way of proceeding after I decided to change it. However, I thought very carefully and consulted quite widely on this. I was advised that it was quite in order to do it like this. I felt it was therefore important to inform as many noble Lords as I could see on the list beforehand of my intentions. I am sorry that the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, did not receive it; I sent them all by e-mail but I could not find his e-mail address. Perhaps that is an opportunity for thinking again. I am very sorry; I apologise for that.
The Earl of Caithness
If the noble Lord had scrolled down to “Caithness” he would have found my e-mail address.
Lord Berkeley
We can have a talk about that afterwards.
We have had a great variety of comments, some of them complimentary, some of them not. I have learnt a great deal from different people’s views today. I should of course have mentioned the Atkins report in my opening remarks. It has made progress. I still believe that more progress could be made. If one reflects on this, the key issue, when one is talking about RPI-X, is probably what X is. We can debate that, and I am sure that we will.
The key is what the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, suggested as the answer to having two concurrent Private Member’s Bills and the draft Marine Navigation Aids Bill. The noble Earl, Lord Attlee, did not really comment on the Government’s intentions on that in his summing up.
I could go through and thank all noble Lords who have spoken and comment on what they have said, but it would take a little bit of time. I know that one or two colleagues are waiting to get on with the next debate. However, I cannot resist responding to my noble friend Lord MacKenzie who complained, quite rightly, that we have got the date wrong for the Bill. If it had been on 1 February, it would have been 200 years from the start of the Bell Rock Lighthouse, which was a fantastic piece of civil engineering construction in its time.
Whether I want to take the Bill forward is really a question of whether we can somehow incorporate, or get moving on, the navigation aids Bill that the previous Parliament was unable to take forward. I have been talking to some people, and Clerks, about whether much or some of the content of that Bill could be incorporated into a Private Member’s Bill. It could be within the Long Title. I am advised of that for this Bill, but I do not think that it could be with the one in the Commons, because that is called the Wreck Removal Convention Bill—apart from the “wreck” bit of it.
There has been much discussion of how much the present Government want the Bill to go ahead, but in draft form it had a lot of support in the previous Parliament. As the Bill stands, I do not think it is appropriate to take it forward, even with the amendments I have tabled and much further thought. We have progressed and I have heard many useful comments today. However, it would be useful to keep it open for Committee stage to see whether the contents of the Marine Navigation Aids Bill could be incorporated. That is in the absence of any commitment from the Government to find time for it; I would not expect them to do so anyway.
My inclination, therefore, is to ask the House to give the Bill a Second Reading but, clearly, I would not take it forward in its present form or with these amendments without a discussion as to what else could go in and whether it is necessary to take it forward at all. On that basis, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.