House of Lords: Future Location

Earl Howe Excerpts

Monday 20th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what consideration is being given to relocating the House of Lords out of London.

[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, the Conservative Party manifesto committed to looking at the role of the House of Lords and to reviewing the relationship between the Government, Parliament and the courts in a constitution, democracy and rights commission. The Government have not yet decided what will be in the scope of the commission and whether it will include the role of the House of Lords but we will make an announcement in due course.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, that does not answer the Question. Can the Minister confirm the reports that No. 10 has said that this is a serious proposal? No. 10 also says that it is one of a range of options being considered. What are the options? Will the Minister outline them? Do they include moving both Houses, which I would prefer, and how does he reconcile all this with the billions now being spent on the restoration and renewal programme of this building?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I know the noble Lord to be a powerful advocate for the idea referred to in his Question. On the one hand, it is the case that some years ago, the Joint Committee on the Palace of Westminster looked at the option of Parliament moving outside of London and decided against it, principally on grounds of cost and the absence of proximity between Parliament and government. On the other hand, there is no reason why these matters should not receive renewed scrutiny and, as I have said, the options are being looked at.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, is it an indication of the depth of research undertaken by the Government on this that the briefing to the Sunday Times said that one advantage of York is that it is now only three hours by train from London? When I came back directly from York to London last weekend, it took me just under two hours. Does this suggest that the Government have not thought this through?

The Government are now mulling over two suggestions. One is whether to devolve power to the north of England, which they have not yet fully addressed, particularly in refusing the One Yorkshire proposals. The other is reform of the House of Lords, regarding which regional representation for a substantial part of the House is already on the table—something that, again, the Government have not addressed.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I agree that those are two important issues. The Government have an aspiration that all parts of the United Kingdom should feel connected to politics and indeed to politicians, including unelected politicians. On his first point about whether the idea of relocating of the House of Lords should be taken forward, I am sure that all logistical aspects would be examined.

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)]

My Lords, the matter of what the House of Lords is going to do should be decided first. I believe that one candidate for the party opposite is in favour of abolishing it altogether. It seems to me that the idea of movement before the future shape, structure and role of the House of Lords are decided makes this a completely irrelevant Question.

[Earl Howe]

My noble friend puts it very well. That is exactly why my party’s manifesto committed to looking first at the role of the House of Lords and taking matters further in the light of conclusions.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister confirm that this announcement comes from the same policy brain at No. 10 that, desperate for a Brexit headline, came up with

“bung a bob for a Big Ben bong”?

We know what happened to that. But there is a serious issue: this House is part of the scrutiny of Parliament as a whole. Clearly government must better engage with the regions and the nations, but does the Minister agree that moving just one part of Parliament, albeit to the fantastic city of York, sounds more like the PM is as worried about Lords scrutiny as he is about Andrew Neil?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, far greater minds than my own are applying themselves to this important question, but I shall ensure that the noble Baroness’s observations are transmitted to the appropriate quarter.

[The Lord Bishop of Chelmsford]

My Lords, I found myself taking a renewed interest in this Question. I put on record that I will later this year have a large garden available in York where a suitable marquee could be erected for these purposes. Some of the most important business that we do in these Houses happens not in the Chambers but in the corridors, so it seems to me to be a serious threat to our democratic processes if we are not in the same place. Could we reconsider this one, please?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I am not sure how far the idea has progressed but I have no doubt that the right reverend Prelate’s observations are extremely useful.

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

My Lords, yesterday morning the people of Yorkshire woke up to the knowledge and excitement of the possibility of Parliament coming back to the north of England. However, I think the excitement was somewhat sullied by the later indication that it was only the House of Lords that would be coming to York. While York would welcome that, I suggest that my noble friend also looks carefully at a new location for the House of Commons. In the interests of national unity, perhaps he should consider the Commons going to either Edinburgh or Glasgow.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I felt sure that all sorts of useful ideas would emerge from this debate. Getting back to my noble friend’s first point, we all know the people of York to be most hospitable, as I am sure they would be with 794 of our number arriving on their doorstep.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, with deference to the right reverend Prelate, am I right in remembering that the centre of the great city of York was the Shambles slaughterhouse? Is this not really an attempt by the Prime Minister to cull the House of Lords, and might that not end up being another shambles?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, as I said earlier, I am sure that all logistical aspects of the idea will be examined. However, I take the noble Lord’s point.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend think that when people in so many constituencies in the north lent their votes to the Conservative Party they were longing for more politicians to be sent to them? Or does he think that they wanted a Government who would concentrate on the things that actually matter, such as health, social care and infrastructure? Should the special advisers in No. 10 not turn their attention to those matters?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend. There may be other and possibly more substantial ways to bring jobs and investment to the north of England than relocating the House of Lords.

[Lord West of Spithead (Lab)]

My Lords, as a great maritime nation, if we are going to do anything as Bodmin as splitting us from the Commons, I hope No. 10 might consider using one of the great Cunarders as somewhere for the Lords to be based. It could then be used to go and visit all parts of the United Kingdom.

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the noble Lord puts forward an extremely imaginative idea, which again will be listened to.

[Viscount Waverley (CB)]

My Lords, the interaction between Government and Parliament was mentioned earlier. How would the Minister feel if he had been called in to answer the Question posed today but the trains affected his ability to get to York on time?

[Earl Howe]

Well, my Lords, we all know what happens to Ministers when they arrive late for your Lordships’ Oral Questions. It is certainly a risk.

[The Duke of Montrose (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend recollect that we are now at the 20th anniversary of the time when this Chamber was debating whether the House of Lords might have to move? A particular concern at that time was what would happen to the offices of state if we went to Scotland.

[Earl Howe]

My noble friend is absolutely right. To get back to the serious core of the Question, this issue has been debated many times in your Lordships’ House and, indeed, the other place. I have no doubt that the conclusion reached by both Houses—which was unanimous, incidentally—will be factored into the discussions currently under way.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

The Minister is held in very high esteem by this House and therefore we have enjoyed his responses to these questions, particular given the flimsiness of the contents of the folder in front of him. I notice that he suggested that minds greater even than his might be considering these matters, and that is a point of some substance. Could he tell us whether his noble friend the Lord Privy Seal was briefed in advance of the statements being made about the intention for your Lordships’ Chamber?

[Earl Howe]

I am not aware that she was, but I shall ask her.

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

We must move on.