Policing

Diana Johnson Excerpts

Wednesday 24th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

We have had an interesting debate this afternoon on policing and the flagship coalition policy of police and crime commissioners in the 41 police authority areas outside London. It has been noticeable that we have heard only from Conservative and Labour Members of Parliament in this debate. No Back-Bench Liberal Democrat MP has spoken. Liberal Democrats seem to be standing in only 24 of the 41 police authority areas, despite their voting for the policy, but then perhaps they are still making up their mind on whether they support it or not.

There have been some excellent contributions to the debate, with many from the Humberside area. It is good that the Labour candidate in Humberside, Lord John Prescott, has had so much publicity this afternoon. It is noticeable that the Conservative candidate does not seem to feature very much at all.

Let me turn first to the contribution made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), who spoke with great authority as a former Home Secretary. He reminded us of Labour’s achievement in government. He spoke about the reduction in crime levels, including the 64% reduction in domestic violence that we saw under the Labour Government, and the focus on that particular crime, which for many years had not been seen as a matter for the police. He also talked about the important role that the police play in partnership working and how important it is to ensuring that crime continues to fall.

My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) raised the important issue of funding levels and the inequity of Surrey seemingly receiving more money than forces in areas such as the west midlands. My hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) spoke about London policing, with 463 fewer officers already in the Metropolitan police. She talked about knife crime and the concerns of young people in the capital. My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) challenged the slogan used by the Prime Minister on Monday—“tough but intelligent”—in his speech on crime, which I think is the first he has made since becoming Prime Minister. My hon. Friend focused on the lack of intelligence in that slogan and in the policies that the Government have been pursuing over the past two and a half years. He also declared himself as a “proud pleb”.

My hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) spoke as a Scottish MP, but from the perspective of someone with fresh eyes looking at what was happening with the elections. He talked about the fact that many people do not know that the elections are happening and about his experience with the police parliamentary scheme. My hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) said that she had been amazed and impressed during the time she spent with the police. She talked about the important concept of policing by consent and the impact of cuts in her constituency.

My hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) also spoke about his experience on the police parliamentary scheme and, again, the effect of cuts in his constituency. My hon. Friend the Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker) spoke about the complexities of policing and the politicisation of the police through the policies that the Government are pursuing. My hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) talked about the shambles in Wales with the ballot papers and the cost that the taxpayer will have to pick up because of the Government’s failure to count days again, which seems to be a running theme.

Let me turn to the policy of having police and crime commissioners. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) stated, the elections will cost £100 million, plus the £350,000 that will have to be paid to put the ballot papers right in Wales. This flagship policy must be set against the backdrop of the fact that £100 million would pay for 3,000 new police officers. This is at a time when 15,000 police officers are to be cut by 2015, and when we already know that 6,800 police officers have been cut from the front line in the first two years of this Parliament, which is more than experts had predicted would be cut in the whole of the Parliament. There is real concern, too, about the headlong rush into mass privatisation, and the failure to learn the lessons from what happened this summer with G4S.

Over the past four weeks the policing story dominating the airwaves has been a senior Cabinet Minister swearing at police officers and reportedly calling them “plebs”. In the past two and a half years, the coalition has made the job of being a police officer much harder. It has restricted the use of CCTV and DNA, it is weakening antisocial behaviour orders and it has cut funding to work with communities, and young people in particular.

Labour opposed the police and crime commissioner model for very good reasons, but in the coming election we cannot leave policing to the Tory candidates alone, who we know are cheerleaders for cutting front-line police officers. The issues are far too important for us to stand aside. We are opposed, however, to these elections being held in one of the darkest and coldest months of the year. Well the Minister explain why we are having these elections in November? Is this a deal that the Liberal Democrats did because they did not want an election in May, when they were going to do so badly in the local council elections?

For the record, let us be clear: the Liberal Democrats voted in favour of setting up the PCCs, with all the associated election and salary costs. Labour voted against that. Labour would much rather spend the money on front-line policing and cutting crime further, not cutting police numbers. The Liberal Democrats promised 3,000 extra police at the 2010 general election, in full knowledge of the deficit. When does the Minister expect to deliver on that promise?

At the end of 2009, the Liberal Democrats released some research that said the Government should recruit 10,000 more police officers. Their leader, the right hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Mr Clegg), said if that were done, an “extra 82,265 crimes” would be solved each year. He said:

“The Liberal Democrats are the only party who wants to catch more criminals by putting more police on the street.”

Given their record and what they have said, it is unsurprising that the Liberal Democrats have chickened out of standing in many of the PCC elections.

In an article in The Daily Telegraph, the former police Minister, the right hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert), says that having TV adverts

“cunningly placed during Downton Abbey”

and “The X Factor” will ensure that people go out to vote. How naive. When I was in Nottingham earlier this week with our excellent candidate Paddy Tipping knocking on doors and talking to individuals, nobody knew about the elections. I am very sceptical about the comment of the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice that 85% of people will see these advertisements. I repeat the comment of senior police figure Peter Neyroud on these elections:

“If you could have constructed a manual on how not to conduct an election, the Home Office have managed to tick off just about every element of it”.

The Electoral Reform Society has warned that this threatens

“to result in the lowest turnout of any nationwide election in British history.”

We are holding the elections in November when holding elections is much more expensive than at other times of the year. Doing so will also drive down turnout, and the elections are unpopular with the public in any case. Instead of a free post or a Government-backed booklet with information about the candidates to be sent to each voter, individuals can only go on to the Government website. Some 71% of over-75s have never used the internet, and neither have almost 20% of people in Wales. At a time when we want to encourage people to vote, the Government are immediately putting electors at a disadvantage. Belatedly, we are now told that there will be a telephone number that voters can call to ask for information to be sent.

What level of turnout is the Minister looking for to make these elections a success and give legitimacy to his Government’s flagship policy? As we have heard, the Minister said at his party conference that 20% is his aim. Is that correct? Interestingly, the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice did not give him much support when he was challenged on this during his opening speech, so it seems that the coalition are split, again, on this matter.

In conclusion, Labour wants to accelerate progress in cutting crime, not make that more difficult. Under Labour, we had more police with more powers, and we sent more criminals to prison. The streets became safer and crime fell by 43%. The coalition has been rowing back on police numbers and police powers. Worse still, the coalition is going to squander £100 million of taxpayers’ money on this shambles of a PCC election, so I ask hon. Members to support the motion.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Browne]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I was just reminding the House that the Government have presided over a 10% fall in crime in the past two years. The latest figures show that crime is lower in England and Wales than at any time since the official survey started in 1981. Chief constables are rising to the challenge of making efficiency savings and providing greater value for money. As Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary has said:

“The front line is being protected”.

Police reform is working. We have swept away central targets and reduced police bureaucracy. That shows that how the police are deployed, rather than their absolute numbers, is the key to cutting crime.

[Diana Johnson]

rose—

[Mr Browne]

Before I give way, let me put it like this to Labour: the best way to measure the success of a service is not whether we have spent more and more money on it, but whether we have got better and better results.

[Diana Johnson]

So does the hon. Gentleman agree with what his leader said—that if there were an additional 10,000 police officers, 82,265 crimes would be solved each year? Does the Minister support that, or was the Deputy Prime Minister talking nonsense—again?

[Mr Browne]

I think that what matters is what one does with the police. The team that wins the premier league is not the one with the biggest squad; it is the one that gets the best results, and that is what we are trying to do in policing.

We see a hallmark of old Labour, new Labour and the exciting latest version that is somewhere in between in the second criticism in the motion: the casual authoritarianism of criticising the Government for

“restricting the use of CCTV”.

Yes, we do believe that there should be some restrictions on CCTV. We are striking the right balance between enabling the police to use modern investigative techniques such as CCTV and DNA evidence, and the police are using those techniques to great effect, but at the same time protecting the right of innocent members of the public to not be subjected to constant and unregulated surveillance.

Labour’s third criticism reveals hostility to the idea of having democratically elected commissioners to increase accountability and give the public greater say in the policing of their community. That was a recurrent theme of the debate. That hostility, it must be said, is not shared by many Labour ex-Ministers, including two recent MPs, Tony Lloyd and Alun Michael, or by the former Deputy Prime Minister, Lord Prescott. If Labour Members are concerned about the election turnout, perhaps they should start by getting those three to pull their fingers out, get campaigning and explain the rationale for their candidacy. Every Member of this House, elected as we are, should want election turnouts to be strong, and I am delighted that the profile of the elections is rising in Cleethorpes, Brigg and Goole, and Denton and Reddish. I believe that it will rise across England and Wales in the coming weeks.

Labour has to make up its own mind. During the debate, we have heard criticism of the Government on the one hand for spending too much money on PCC elections, and on the other hand, for not spending enough. Whatever the turnout, the House can be sure of this: the new PCCs will have a stronger mandate than the police authorities they are replacing. Many police authority members from all parties have done sterling work on behalf of their communities. We recognise and applaud that, but with the best will in the world, police authorities were hardly delivering public accountability and transparency: in the most recent survey, only 7% of the public were even aware that police authorities existed. We should not be fearful of giving the public a say, and parties in this House should not be discouraging people from participating in a democratic process. I hope that people will find out more and that they will vote.