Gibraltar

David Winnick Excerpts

Wednesday 20th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mark Simmonds]

I can give my hon. Friend the assurance that of course we will continue to make the strongest possible representations to the Spanish Government. It is relevant, in response to his question, to highlight that Gibraltar’s constitution reflects the principle that the people have the right of self-determination. The realisation of that right must be promoted and respected in conformity with the provisions of the charter of the United Nations that are applicable under international treaties. Certainly, we will not go down the route that the previous Government took in 2002.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

I agree with the Minister that everything should be done to de-escalate the crisis, and we should recognise that Spain is a long-term ally of ours, but is the Minister aware that those of us who supported Spanish democrats during the very long years of Franco’s brutal dictatorship much regret the pressure that Spain is putting on the people of Gibraltar, who have made it clear, as has been stated time and again today, that they want the status quo to remain?

[Mark Simmonds]

The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful point. Bullying and intimidation, wherever they occur, are unacceptable, but that certainly appears to be what is happening in relation to Gibraltar. I can give him, as I have given others, an assurance that the British Government will continue to make the strongest possible representations to ensure, hopefully, that the situation is de-escalated, and that the Spanish Government change their behaviour.

Iran and Syria

David Winnick Excerpts

Monday 11th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

That is one of the dangers, yes. That is absolutely correct. There are many dangers here, but the conflict in Syria becoming more sectarian in its nature and then exacerbating such tensions in neighbouring countries, with a greater and greater disregard for national boundaries, is absolutely a central danger here. That is why it is so important that we give the support to neighbouring countries, including the support that we give to the Lebanese armed forces, which I have described on other occasions, and it is the urgency behind the efforts to come to a political solution to the conflict before it does even greater damage to the entire region.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

The situation in Syria is indeed appalling, and everyone will endorse what the Foreign Secretary said and the need for humanitarian aid. On the talks with the Iranian Foreign Minister, is it not a fact that the Israeli Prime Minister has been very active in trying to gather opposition, including hard-line elements in the United States? Is it not essential that, despite such efforts to undermine what could be a great achievement for peace and security, the talks should succeed?

[Mr Hague]

It is important that the talks should succeed. It is very important that we pursue a steady course through this to an agreement that is demanding, of course, and which gives the necessary assurances and brings about concrete actions in Iran’s nuclear programme. We should not be surprised that in different countries people have different opinions about this. That is what we have to deal with as politicians and Ministers. We have to persuade other countries as best we can. We will continue to be very active, talking to Israel and other countries with concerns, not being at all surprised that people have concerns, but putting the case for what we think is right.

Syria

David Winnick Excerpts

Thursday 12th September 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

Through DFID’s work, we make a huge contribution to people’s medical welfare. DFID already provides money for about 300,000 medical consultations and a wide range of medical supplies. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Development is constantly reviewing and updating how best we can help. She will have heard my hon. Friend’s question.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Can the Foreign Secretary explain why in 2012, a year after the civil war in Syria started, a UK firm was granted a licence to sell industrial chemical products that, according to the Defence Secretary, could be used in processes to produce poisonous gases? According to the Business Secretary, although the EU sanctions were fortunately tightened, some of those products had already been sent to Syria, despite what the Defence Secretary told me on 2 September. Perhaps I could have an explanation and an apology from the Defence Secretary.

[Mr Hague]

I think that the hon. Gentleman will find that no such apology is needed. He knows the position on this matter. The licences were revoked before the chemicals were exported. There is no evidence that the chemicals concerned in those licences were exported to Syria. Licences were granted in earlier years under the previous Government, whom he supported. In fairness to them, there is no evidence that those goods, if they were exported, were used for anything other than their declared commercial purpose. When those two things are taken together, there is no evidence that any such exports have contributed to Syria’s chemical weapons programme.

Arms to Syria

David Winnick Excerpts

Thursday 11th July 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron) on initiating this debate. I am opposed to arms being sent to the rebels in Syria, but let me make this absolutely clear: if I had a different viewpoint, I would still be of the opinion that it is Parliament that should decide whether or not such a decision should be taken. A great deal is said about reforms and changes for Parliament, but one of the most important aspects of the House of Commons is that major decisions such as whether arms should be sent in such circumstances should not be taken without the express and direct consent of the House of Commons.

[Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman but, in furtherance of his argument, would he also accept that even if it were not generally the case that Parliament should have its say before such a step is taken, when it is widely known that there is very substantial opposition to what is proposed, and that it is very likely that there would be a heavy majority of opposition in Parliament, it would be particularly unwise for the Government to go ahead without letting Parliament have its say and have a vote first?

[Mr Winnick]

I could not have put that better myself. It is very rare for the hon. Gentleman and I to agree. I hope that does not mean that we are in the wrong on this issue. My concern is that we are going into two long recesses and the Government could make a decision arguing that, given all the circumstances, it was necessary to arm the rebels in Syria, and although the House would almost certainly be recalled, the decision would have already been taken. The Government would be asking for support from their own Members on a three-line Whip. That is why is there is a good deal of anxiety—all the more so as we start our recess next week.

During the statement yesterday the Foreign Secretary said that it is “possible to anticipate” the supply of arms and that therefore there is no reason why it should not be debated “in advance”. Let me say to the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, the hon. Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt) that those words have been carefully noted and the Foreign Secretary will be held to account on them by all of us if any other decision is taken when the House is not sitting.

During that statement the Foreign Secretary also spoke about the amount of support already going to the Syrian rebels—those we support. We are talking about armoured vehicles, body armour and communications equipment. Moreover, as was stated, another £20 million of supplies will be sent in the coming months. Might not the argument then be, “With all these supplies already sent, why not lethal weapons?” These things escalate, although I am not altogether certain that what has been sent has been justified.

Let us be clear about the background to this debate. Nearly 100,000 people have died in Syria since the conflict started. So many of the people who have been killed have been civilians going about their normal lives—or trying to do so; these are the men, women and children who have been killed, on both sides. The bloodshed and the suffering continues now. The argument for the supply of arms is that the stronger the rebels—at least those rebels the British Government support—the more likely it is that the Assad regime will be brought to the negotiating table. That is the basic argument, and no doubt we will hear further arguments along those lines from the right hon. and learned Member for Kensington (Sir Malcolm Rifkind), the former Foreign Secretary.

I would not dismiss that view out of hand; it is possible that there is some logic in that argument. Is it not, however, much more likely that arms supplies from the west, including from this country, would simply lead, as other hon. Members have said, to even more arms for the regime from its current backers? We would have an escalating arms race. Why do we believe that if the west started to supply arms to the rebels, the countries supporting Assad’s brutal, murderous regime—Russia, foremost, but also Iran—which, without question, has no legitimacy, would not increase the arms supply likewise? As I say, an escalating arms race can lead only to further death and destruction. As has been said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain), neither should we overlook the sectarian aspect to the conflict, with support being given to both sides in accordance with a religious divide between Sunni and Shi’a. Again, we should not intervene in that.

I want to make it clear that there are circumstances where armed intervention from this country is justified. Nobody could have been more in favour of the support given in Bosnia and Kosovo than me. I believed that we had a duty in those places to provide support, and I was pleased to be among those who did so when Muslims were facing outright massacre. In the mid-1990s, at the time of the Bosnian conflict, I said that such support should be given—unfortunately, it was often not to be given until too late—but in Bosnia and Kosovo we were not faced with extremist elements; we were not faced with elements such as those in Syria, who obviously want to bring about a form of state run along more or less the same lines as the Taliban. Syria is a different situation altogether and that should be very much borne in mind.

What should we do in the circumstances? I could not agree more with the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) that we should, first and foremost, maximise humanitarian relief in every possible way, bearing in mind the suffering that has already occurred. More relief should be given. Every help should be given to innocent people who have been caught up in the conflict.

Finally, we must redouble our efforts to try to bring the conflict to an end, not by sending arms, but by trying to persuade Russia and other such countries to come to the negotiating table to end the suffering, to end the war and to bring about a situation where people in Syria can once again go about their everyday lives, however much there was a dictatorship there. That is a far better way of trying to deal with this terrifying problem than sending arms to those in Syria whom we believe are on the right side. Of course, we have no guarantee that if we were to do so, those arms would go to the people we believe should be supported.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), because I recall that he and I went to Sierra Leone together when we were both members of the Defence Committee when our Government had, rightly, intervened to defend democracy against people who were practising a form of terrorism against the population.

I am, by instinct and nature, a humanitarian interventionist. I support the responsibility to protect. I believe—I still say it, and it will get me criticised in some quarters—that voting for the intervention in Iraq in 2003 was the right thing to do, and I will not apologise for it. I believe that there are sometimes circumstances where it is right to take action without a United Nations Security Council resolution. For example, when John Major’s Government introduced a no-fly zone they did so without a UN resolution.

[Mr Winnick]

And there was Kosovo.

[Mike Gapes]

I will come to Kosovo, but I do not want to get diverted into the Balkans at the moment.

I also believe, though, that we have to look to the consequences of our actions and make judgments. I am not persuaded about suggestions that we provide sophisticated weaponry to opposition groups in Syria; in fact, I am very concerned about them. I am a member of the Committees on Arms Export Controls. We have accountability through the House and its Select Committees, and we monitor the transfer and sale of arms to states. However, the Government seem to be preparing to adopt a position that is not about transferring weaponry to states, but about providing weaponry to factions within a state. We might say that the National Coalition is the sole legitimate representative, although I do not hear that phrase being used quite so forcefully now, but it is certainly not the Government. Our Government would therefore be taking a decision to supply weaponry to a faction within a wider faction, within a state that still has a Government who control part of the territory, while other areas are controlled by warlords and tribal clans—the Kurdish people have almost total autonomy in one part of the country, as was the case for the Iraqi Kurds. Fundamental questions are being raised, so there would need to be an explicit vote in the House if such an action were taken, because it would set a lot of precedents. We all remember things such as arms to the Contras in the United States.

I will support the motion not simply because it is time to assert parliamentary sovereignty once more, but because there would be wider implications of such a decision by the Government. I am also worried that arms would be given to neighbouring states and then passed on, which raises additional problems. We need to explore issues such as end-use agreements, but any proposal will require an explicit vote of support.

Iran

David Winnick Excerpts

Monday 17th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

We do have conversations with the Iranians, and we will of course be very much open to conversations with the new President and his team. As has been mentioned, they are still some way from taking office, and we do not know who the other Ministers in the new Government will be, but, yes, we will be open to conversations with them. Those conversations can and should include the circumstances in which embassies can be reopened, but after what happened last time, we would need to be very confident of any assurances before we were able to reopen our embassy in the short term. There is an offer on the table from the E3 plus 3 on the nuclear issue, and it will remain on the table over the coming weeks.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Should we not bear in mind that the previous regime, the Shah’s regime, was put in place and maintained for a long time by Britain, the United States and other western powers? That has not been forgotten by the Iranian people, but if conditions can be normalised, as we all hope will be the case, will that not put pressure on the present regime to end the abuses of human rights in Iran?

[Mr Hague]

Yes, of course people have strong views about history, but as I have pointed out, the negotiations on the nuclear issue are not just with the UK. They involve all the other members of the E3 plus 3, including China and Russia. So historical feelings about the UK cannot be a barrier to resolving those issues. The hon. Gentleman is right to draw attention to human rights in Iran; its human rights record is truly appalling. There are more journalists in prison in Iran than in any other country in the world, 350 executions were carried out last year, opposition leaders have been detained for over two years, and there are continued arrests of human rights defenders and minorities. It is high time that that record was improved, and that the nuclear issue was resolved.

GCHQ

David Winnick Excerpts

Monday 10th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

In my experience, we are well-equipped to conduct necessary investigations, but I return to the answer I gave to the previous question. There will be a constant need to update what we are able to do, without being diverted from the basic principle of ensuring that our intelligence gathering is on what is necessary, and that it is proportionate, targeted and always legal. Our laws do not provide for indiscriminate trawling for information through the contents of people’s communications. We do not need to change those basic principles, but we sometimes need to change aspects of the legal framework and where we are able to get information from. That work must go on in the coming years.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Considering all the dangers for the individual concerned, why should we believe that the American whistleblower is telling a pack of lies? If a lot of what he is saying is true, then surely law-abiding citizens who are a million miles from any threat involved with terrorism should indeed be fearful.

[Mr Hague]

As you will have noticed, Mr Speaker, I have not commented on the individual concerned. I am not going to get into a running commentary on this or any other leak. It is not possible for any Government to do that while respecting the need to maintain the secrecy of our intelligence work. I do not want to get into that now, but I stress again the very strong legal framework in this country. I believe people can have confidence in that.

Mau Mau Claims (Settlement)

David Winnick Excerpts

Thursday 6th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

I will try also to give brief answers. I described in my statement how the legal cases were proceeding. There had been a series of hearings in 2011 and 2012. The Government had contested all of the cases, but the High Court had decided that three out of five of them could proceed, on grounds that were quite specific to this particular case and to the Mau Mau insurgency. It does not therefore set a precedent for other cases. Given that it had decided that, the Government came to the view that it was in the interests of the British taxpayer, and also of the claimants, to come to a settlement on this particular matter.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Terrible things were undoubtedly done on both sides, but may I tell the Foreign Secretary that many of us opposed from the start what we considered to be a totally unnecessary colonial war, as, indeed, we opposed what happened in Cyprus at around 1960? Although I would not normally quote Enoch Powell, because of the outburst in 1968 and other matters, in the debate on 27 July 1959 on the murder of 11 African detainees, he said:

“We cannot say, ‘We will have African standards in Africa, Asian standards in Asia and perhaps British standards here at home’…We cannot, we dare not, in Africa of all places, fall below our own highest standards in the acceptance of responsibility.”—[Official Report, 27 July 1959; Vol. 610, c. 237.]

For once, Enoch Powell was right.

[Mr Speaker]

I think the Foreign Secretary will remember that Denis Healey described the speech in his autobiography as the greatest parliamentary speech he ever heard, carrying all the moral force of Demosthenes.

Syria

David Winnick Excerpts

Monday 20th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

My hon. Friend is absolutely spot on. That is absolutely right, which is why, in everything we are doing to send help into Syria and to deliver humanitarian assistance, we are trying to bolster the more moderate opposition forces with the practical help that we have given so far. Otherwise, it will become a contest between a murdering criminal regime on the one hand and the extremists on the other. That would be the worst situation of all for the world to be left in.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

The brutality of the regime is hardly in question, but have not both sides committed terrible war crimes against humanity? Why should the House believe that the sending of arms to the rebels will help to resolve this terrible conflict, rather than escalating it?

[Mr Hague]

As the hon. Gentleman will know, having listened to my statement, I am not asking this country to make that choice at the moment. We are talking about amending the arms embargo. He is quite right to say that crimes have been committed by both sides. He should also know that the military and civilian leadership of the National Coalition have expressed their utter horror at such things, and that they are doing their utmost to ensure that they are not done in their name. We can all understand, in a country with so many different groups fighting in such a disparate way, that extremist groups and others do things that are not within the control of those commanders. The United Kingdom is resolutely against any such crimes and wants the perpetrators to be held to account, whether they are in the Government or the opposition.

Afghanistan

David Winnick Excerpts

Thursday 21st March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hague]

Of course the situation remains difficult, as I made clear in my statement, but it is important that responsibility for security should be passed to the Afghans themselves. It is for them to make decisions about their own country. Regarding future support, the international commitments made at the NATO summit in Chicago last year and at the Tokyo summit on development are very strong. Each commitment involves the provision of $4 billion a year, well into the future, to maintain the Afghan national security forces in one case and to contribute to sound economic development in the other. That $8 billion commitment from the international community is a huge one. That is the support it is going to provide, and we now have to help to ensure that the Afghan leadership can make good use of it.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

May I press the Foreign Secretary on one point? He has pledged that Britain’s combat role will end in 2014. Is that absolutely firm, no matter what occurs or whether the Taliban engage in talks?

[Mr Hague]

Yes, that has been firm for a long time. The hon. Gentleman will have heard the Prime Minister talking about this, as well as my right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary and me, and he will remember how clear the Prime Minister has been on the matter for a long time. It is in any case the commitment of the whole of ISAF. There are decisions to be made about the presence after that, but that is the end of our combat role. We have already made a commitment to lead the officer training academy afterwards. I have given such enormous attention to building up the Afghan national security forces and a viable Afghan state, as well as pursuing the political process and an Afghan-led peace process, so that we can be absolutely sure about this.

European Council

David Winnick Excerpts

Tuesday 19th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Swire]

I cannot answer either of those questions in the affirmative but I shall ensure that the right hon. Gentleman’s questions are given a precise and accurate answer.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

With respect to the right hon. Gentleman, no matter how many times the Prime Minister has made statements on the European Council, it is still the Prime Minister’s responsibility to come to the House and make such a statement whenever the Council has met.

On Syria, is the Minister aware that no one in the House disputes for one moment the sheer brutality of the Syrian regime or its total indifference to human suffering? At the same time, however, I believe that there should be a test of feeling in the House—a vote, perhaps—on the issue of arming the other side. Far from helping the situation, it could escalate the violence, the suffering and the crimes against humanity that we see on our television screens. I praise the humanitarian work that the Government are doing, with our support, for the children and the rest. That is absolutely essential.

[Mr Swire]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman’s second point; he is absolutely right. His first point was somewhat hypothetical. Of course there is understandable concern among Members on both sides of the House about the direction in which Syria is going, and about what might or might not happen, but there is no change in our position today. I have come to the House to explain what was discussed at the summit, and it is absolutely right that we keep all options under review. I think he would agree that what has been done to date has not worked very well, as we continue to see a greater deterioration in the country and greater humanitarian suffering. It is therefore quite right that we keep all our options open.