Scrap Metal Dealers Bill

David Winnick Excerpts

Friday 13th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

Recently, a family in my borough woke up to discover that during the night lead flashing had been taken from their doorframes, bay windows and porches. The thieves had stood on wheelie bins to reach some of the lead. That illustrates the scale of the problem that the hon. Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway) is seeking to address. I congratulate him on introducing his Bill. We must not make too much of a habit of my following him, however; I did so on 27 March, in a debate on a totally different subject, and I wonder whether the same situation will arise again in the near future. He is right that metal theft has become a major and very antisocial problem throughout most of the country. He mentioned the Croydon parish church, which, as he might know, is not unfamiliar to me from a prehistoric age. My Front-Bench colleague, my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), will no doubt address general matters, but I shall concentrate mainly on the position locally in the Walsall borough and in my constituency.

I recently received a letter from a constituent in which she wrote:

“Afraid life has become a nightmare here, with cars parked everywhere and vans loaded with scrap parked in front of houses. Scrap is moved from one lorry to another.

Of course, everyone is in a state of distress and I hear different reports of what is being said. All this is mixed with fear, residents are terrified of reprisals; even so, I know that the police have this on their radar.

Am I correct in thinking that this is an increasing problem for the constituency?”

Of course, the answer is yes, very much so.

Last Friday, I went to a ward in a different part of my constituency. I hold regular surgeries there, and I wanted to see the up-to-date position. I was accompanied by a local councillor, and we saw that in certain streets, although not in the ward as a whole, there were vans full to the brim with metal, all of it to be sold at a later date. There was no licensing of any kind. These activities undoubtedly cause a major antisocial nuisance in the vicinity.

It is unfortunate that it has taken so long for the House to recognise the seriousness of this problem. I would have hoped that we could have dealt with it earlier. Walsall council is not indifferent. It does not have a Labour majority, but there is no party political point to be made, and the officers are doing their best. However, they simply do not have the powers to act effectively, for many of the reasons the hon. Member for Croydon South mentioned. His Bill is therefore clearly necessary.

The local authority says that it and the police simply do not have sufficient powers to take the required action. It sent me a letter saying there is a lack of cohesion between the borough and neighbouring areas, which results in problems being passed from one area to another. It added that the penalties are ineffective in that they are not sufficiently strong to act as a deterrent, and that there are problems with enforcing laws due to slow legal processes and limited resources. It is also difficult to monitor the number and location of scrap dealers, as many of them are not registered with the council. We all hope and expect that the Minister will give the Bill his support, but I ask him to address that issue. If we are going to pass legislation, local authorities must have the powers and resources to be able to enforce the new laws.

[Robert Flello]

My hon. Friend’s comments bring to mind a situation in my constituency involving European Metal Recycling. The company and its scrap yard have been causing a great nuisance to neighbours. EMR has flouted the planning law and all sorts of other regulations. It has put up buildings and installed CCTV, and erected scrap piles that are far higher than is allowed. My local authority has tried to address the problem, but at every turn EMR has manipulated the law, and planning objections that have gone before the council will now possibly have to go through the entire court and appeal system. That serves to highlight my hon. Friend’s point that these companies will do anything to get a few quid in their pockets from scrap.

[Mr Winnick]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on being so conscientious in dealing with these problems in his constituency. We all know that he is a very conscientious Member of Parliament.

We must not have any illusions and assume that changing the law will result in everyone who is involved in this business suddenly changing their ways. Many of them will do everything they can to evade the law and continue to make a fast buck.

[Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman said local authorities need to have the resources to enforce the laws. One of the great strengths of the Bill is that it provides those resources through the ability to raise a licensing fee. Does he agree that the scrap metal industry should pay for the costs of licensing?

[Mr Winnick]

Yes, of course. That is a very valid point, but I am also saying that where local authorities require further resources to carry out their duties and responsibilities they should not be in a position where they cannot do so. If an authority does not face such problems of resources, so be it. Just to clarify things, what I am saying is that whatever the source of revenue, local authorities should not be in a position, once this Bill becomes law, to say, “We want to do it. We know it is important, but we have not got the resources.” I do not want to participate in an argument today about how local authorities are being so adversely affected by the cuts, because there will be many other occasions to do so. I have not come here to deal with that, and Government Members should be pleased at least about that.

Reference is made in the introductory notes about the cost to the country; it is estimated that between £260 million and almost £800 million could be lost each year. So we are talking about large sums indeed. Various clauses of the Bill will doubtless be examined in Committee. I note that the Local Government Association would like more flexibility to impose local conditions, which is, again, a Committee matter. Moreover, the same organisation said in its memorandum that it fears that what is being proposed may not be enough to change the behaviour of some of the worst offenders. I think I have dealt with that aspect, but it needs to be emphasised that strong measures will have to be taken once the Bill becomes law, and we hope that local authorities and the police will carry out their duties accordingly.

Clause 15 proposes that the Act should be reviewed every five years, which, again, will be a matter for the Committee. I would say that this should be done every three years. Given that the problem is as acute as the hon. Member for Croydon South rightly said it is, is it really enough to say that this should be looked at only once five years has passed? I very much urge that that period should be shorter. Clause 3(7) provides for bodies that need to be involved in registration and so on. I would include local authorities in that, and perhaps the hon. Gentleman will give consideration to that point as well.

All in all, I believe that what is being proposed today is essential. It is what our constituents want, and it is what local authorities and the police require in order to deal with what we all agree is a major social problem—perhaps I should call it an antisocial problem, as that would be more precise. I know that one or two Government Members at the back of the Chamber do not have much confidence in the state intervening, but if ever there was a case for it, this is it. I hope I am not provoking the hon. Members for Shipley (Philip Davies) and for Bury North (Mr Nuttall), but saying that was somewhat irresistible when I saw the two of them sitting together on the Back Benches. The argument that the state does not have a role to play in so many matters falls, as is quite clear; even they may recognise that this is a problem that cannot be left to be dealt with locally and does require state intervention, hence the reason for this Bill and why I am pleased to support it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Philip Davies]

I absolutely take my hon. Friend’s point, which he makes characteristically well. The issue is whether we will end up with a level playing field. I do not doubt that we will end up with a level playing field for all legitimate scrap metal dealers—that is clearly the case—but, according to the British Metals Recycling Association, much of the problem is not with the legal dealers, but with the illegal ones, so we do not have a level playing field and all the Bill would do is further uneven it by making it even harder for legitimate sites to compete with illegal ones.

The key point—this is where we might come to some agreement—is that this could work, as the British Metals Recycling Association has stated, only if there were

“effective enforcement against unregulated operators”.

My concern is that we would have an awful lot of enforcement against regulated operators, which is what the Bill would do. It is about targeting those who are already regulated and piling more regulation on them, but that will not help to tackle the unregulated ones.

[Mr Winnick]

The hon. Gentleman certainly represents the most progressive part of the 18th century, but will he accept that if the organisations involved with this problem—the British Transport police, the British Metals Recycling Association, the Association of Train Operating Companies, the police generally and local authorities—believe that this is necessary and support the measure, should we not take on board what they say?

[Philip Davies]

I am rather wrapped up in wondering whether the hon. Gentleman’s first comment was a compliment or an insult; I will go away and think about it, but perhaps he will make it clear. I was rather startled by his second point, because I think it was the first time in all the years I have been listening to him in this House that he has seemed to have made the point that if the police think something is a good idea this House should deliver what they want. I remember when he sat on the Government Benches in the last Parliament and talked about anti-terrorist legislation, for example. He was a great champion of the view that, “Well of course the police want all these powers, but it is our job to resist giving them to them.” As someone who is generally a big fan of supporting the police, I welcome his conversion to a more authoritarian approach to crime and law and order, but it is rather uncharacteristic.

[Mr Winnick]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. I think we are getting away from licensing. Mr Davies, I think you are desperate to get back to where you were and I am sure that you do not want to be distracted.

[Philip Davies]

As ever, Mr Deputy Speaker, you read me like a book. I was just thinking about how I did not want to be distracted by the hon. Gentleman, but I have every confidence that his next intervention will put us back on track.

[Mr Winnick]

I was not aware that I was off track last time. If it were simply the police who were saying that these measures were necessary, the hon. Gentleman, whom I would not dream of insulting, could say that the argument would not necessarily be valid, but they are one of a number of bodies that want this. What I am saying is that those who have to try to deal with the problem—I mentioned local authorities and the local police in the Walsall borough—all seem to be of the same view that it is necessary to strengthen the law.

[Philip Davies]

I am sure that the police are reassured to know that the hon. Gentleman is not wholeheartedly behind them, but I am sure that they still welcome his move in their direction on this issue. As I made clear just before you arrived in the Chair, Mr Deputy Speaker, I must press on as I have to go to an engagement in Yorkshire, which will be a huge relief to all Members in the Chamber.