Financial Risk Checks for Gambling

Debate between David Mundell and Louie French

Monday 26th February 2024 Westminster Hall

[David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale) (Con)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for St Helens North (Conor McGinn), who is a much greater expert on this issue than I am. I make no apology for speaking up for horseracing and the equestrian industry more generally in this debate, because it is extremely important to the local economy in constituencies such as mine. I represent the largest rural constituency in the United Kingdom outside the highlands. It does not have a functioning racecourse, but it does border courses in Hexham, Carlisle, Hamilton, Kelso and Ayr. It therefore has many training yards, breeders, vets, farriers and jockeys—all the people connected with an equestrian sport.

Those people are extremely concerned about this proposal and the impact it will have on the industry. This debate is an opportunity to air those concerns. Like those fellow Members who have already set out some very important points, I think that is what we should be doing this evening.

The first of the two points that I want to focus on is the inappropriateness of any one-size-fits-all approach. I think there is a consensus, or at least a consensus is emerging, that the approach towards games of chance should be different from the approach towards games of skill. It is not appropriate to treat them the same. Going to a racecourse is not the same as playing a game of roulette on a phone. My second point is about the reality of frictionless checks and how possible they actually are.

It has already been said how helpful the Minister has been in meeting MPs with concerns. I have already drawn the Minister’s attention to a book—indeed, volume one of a series of books—written by my constituent William Morgan called “Strongholds of Satan”. It is from a series that sets out to detail every racecourse that has previously existed in the UK. The title, “Strongholds of Satan”, comes from how racecourses were previously described; before the rise of football, racing was a potent combination of national sport, fair, local holiday and gambling opportunity. Therefore, religious leaders were outraged and politicians were constantly trying to restrain all the shenanigans among the crowds, the gamblers and the horse-owners.

I particularly commended the Minister to the chapter that is called “The regulation of racing”. In that chapter, Mr Morgan sets out how, from 1654, Government have sought to regulate and interfere with racing. In fact, the first act by the Cromwellian Government was to ban racing completely, not because they had any moral concern or other concern, but because they did not want crowds of people to be brought together who could foment against the Government. The book goes on to describe other pieces of legislation. For example, in 1740, there was:

“An Act to restrain and prevent the excessive Increase of Horse-races; and…more effectual preventing of excessive and deceitful Gaming”.

And so it goes on, through the next three centuries.

I will not set it out in full, but that chapter shows that many of the measures that were introduced had completely unintended consequences. What happened, as we have speculated on already in this debate, is that the owners, the punters, the racecourse proprietors and the nefarious elements changed their practices to accommodate legislative proposals. That is a significant concern about what is being proposed now. The right hon. Member for West Suffolk (Matt Hancock), the former Culture Secretary, set out the concerns about illegal betting—black market betting—taking place. We should consider very clearly the possibility of such unintended consequences and in particular, as the British Horseracing Association has set out, the proportionality of what is being proposed.

It is also clear that many people, including the many constituents who have been in touch with me, do not have confidence in the concept of the frictionless check. I would be grateful if the Minister set out in closing how people can have confidence that these checks will not intrude into their affairs.

[Mr French]

One of the potential consequences of this is the impact on the elderly and on isolation in particular. When I was a student, I worked part-time for a bookmaker to help to pay for my fees and upkeep. It helped me to fall in love with horseracing. One of the things that I used to see day in, day out was elderly people who would bet very small stakes, who would very much fear the intrusiveness of the checks and of being caught up in the trap. That might fuel some kind of isolation in their day-to-day experiences.

[David Mundell]

I very much take that on board. To quote my constituent Alexander McLean:

“I bet on sport and I find it extremely offensive that someone should dictate how I should spend the money that I have already paid tax on. I am 71 years old. I have no dependants. My bills have been paid. I have enough money stashed away to pay for my funeral. Why are the Government subjecting me to this?”

He goes on to say that he agrees, of course, that there are people who find themselves in “tragic” situations with a gambling addiction, but as the hon. Member for Bath (Wera Hobhouse) also said, this is using

“a sledgehammer to crack a nut”.

I am sure that Mr McLean will have been pleased to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) speak up for punters and my hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (Mr French) speak up in particular for older punters who take a responsible attitude.

That does not mean that the issues and concerns expressed so eloquently by the hon. Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) should not be considered. Of course they should be, but clearly for the whole horseracing industry and the equestrian community the Government have got it wrong. They need to take a step back and review how they can continue to support the industry and the sector effectively, while at the same time taking on board the serious concerns about the regulation and operation of certain games of chance. That is my message to the Government.

Many people may think that this estate is a stronghold of Satan, but many people here clearly have genuine concern and support for the industry. They know how important it is to their local economies and communities. We should do everything to support it, not bring in measures that potentially completely and utterly undermine it.