Draft Scotland Clauses

Debate between David Mundell and Fiona O'Donnell

Thursday 22nd January 2015 Commons Chamber

[David Mundell]

It will certainly be possible for the franchise in Scotland to be let to a public sector organisation. That was the basis of the agreement on the Smith commission to which the hon. Lady’s Labour colleagues signed up.

[Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

May I say to the House that we will not hear MPs from the Scottish Labour party bleating about the fact that the Smith agreement went beyond our original submission, because we know how to put country before party.

The proposals give powers to the Scottish Parliament to build a fairer Scotland, an issue that was at the heart of the referendum debate. I want to ask the Minister about a particular aspect of that agenda—access to work support grants. I wrote to the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions about that at the beginning of December. There is no certainty in Scotland on how the assessment takes places—there are inconsistencies. Is the Minister proposing that support grants should be part of the settlement?

[David Mundell]

I will certainly speak to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to look at the position of the correspondence he entered into with the hon. Lady.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David Mundell and Fiona O'Donnell

Wednesday 14th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[David Mundell]

My right hon. Friend will be aware that we actively engage in discussions with the Scottish Government on important strategic transport projects that impact the whole United Kingdom, such as the Forth crossing. I am sure that colleagues in the Scottish Government will have heard his points, and I will certainly raise them further with them.

[Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

The Minister said that my constituents can have confidence that there will be no reduction in the service on the east coast main line, but can he explain why the Minister at the Department for Transport who has responsibility for rail franchises said that the service at Dunbar was to be reduced?

[David Mundell]

I think the hon. Lady was not listening to my previous answer. I undertook, on behalf of the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir), to investigate what has been said previously about the rail link north of Edinburgh, and I will also take up her point.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David Mundell and Fiona O'Donnell

Wednesday 5th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[David Mundell]

I commend the hon. Gentleman for pointing out the specific issues raised in island communities and by rurality generally, and that is why the Government have provided additional discretionary housing payments for rural areas.

[Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

3. What discussions he has had with his ministerial colleagues on increased national insurance costs for public bodies in Scotland resulting from the introduction of the single-tier pension.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

Ministers in the UK Government and Scottish Government are in regular dialogue on issues relating to funding public bodies in Scotland. This Government believe that pension reform is essential because people are living longer and we all need to save for retirement.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

Scottish councils are struggling to protect local services, because the Scottish National party Government are not fully funding the council tax freeze. Will the Minister, unlike the SNP, stand up for Scottish councils and make representations to relevant ministries to protect Scottish councils from this budgetary time bomb?

[David Mundell]

I note what the hon. Lady says. I am due to meet the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and will ensure that her comments are on the agenda for that meeting.

Constitutional Law

Debate between David Mundell and Fiona O'Donnell

Tuesday 15th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

We have had a full and wide-ranging debate. I never doubted that we could fill six and a half hours with contributions from across the Chamber, representing parties across the political spectrum and, importantly, constituencies across the United Kingdom.

At Scotland Office questions, I said that I am never surprised by the actions of the Scottish National party, but I must admit that I was surprised that SNP Members left their Benches empty for a significant part of today’s debate, and did not listen to the contributions and views of others, even if they did not agree with them. The hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) started the debate well for the SNP with what could almost be described as a statesmanlike contribution. However, the SNP must recognise that the tone and behaviour of the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) and the somewhat erratic behaviour of the Member representing the Western Isles lead people to have concerns about how the SNP majority in the Scottish Parliament will take the matter forward.

The order that we are debating today is of the utmost constitutional significance. The right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Mr Kennedy) set exactly the right tone in his contribution on the context of the debate and the political history of Scotland that has led us to this point. The order paves the way for a legal, fair and decisive referendum that will determine Scotland’s future: whether we will be a Scotland that affirms its commitment to this, our United Kingdom, or whether we will be a Scotland that chooses to leave the greatest political, economic and social union that has ever existed. I make no apology for putting my point of view strongly and passionately in this debate, and it is clear that others will also do so. Although we are discussing process today—the legal mechanism to provide the Scottish Parliament with the power to bring forward a referendum Bill—that process will result in the most important decision that people in Scotland will ever be asked to take. Separation will not be for Christmas 2014, but for ever. That is why the process has been debated so comprehensively, not just in this House but between the Governments in the run-up to the Edinburgh agreement, and will continue to be debated by parties in the Scottish Parliament.

To answer an intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), and to refute directly some of the comments of the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire, Members of this Parliament will still have a role in that debate and will be entitled to contribute to it. The issues can still be debated in this House of Commons and the other place. Our electorate in Scotland would expect nothing else.

The order ensures that the referendum will be legal, and that is why we are delivering the section 30 order. I am pleased that the Scottish Government now recognise the importance of doing that. The referendum must be fair—and it must be seen to be fair, as many Members have said. At the end of the process, no side can be allowed to cry foul—a point that the Chairman of the Scottish Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson) made in his usual colourful way. The debate must be conducted on a basis of well established principles, which have applied to referendums held across the United Kingdom, by successive UK Governments, and which both the Scottish Government and the UK Government put their names to when they signed the Edinburgh agreement last October. The process must produce a decisive result.

Businesses up and down Scotland tell me that they want to get the issue resolved once and for all. They want to get on with concentrating on rebuilding Scotland's economy, to focus on jobs, housing, and people’s real concerns. The Government want that too, but we accept that following the May 2011 election for the Scottish Parliament, the question of independence cannot be ignored. We must address the issue, and we must answer the question: do we want to stay in the United Kingdom or do we want to leave it for ever?

The order will ensure that the referendum can take place. As the Secretary of State said in his opening remarks, it will ensure that the referendum contains a single question about independence, and that there will be no second question or second referendum to cloud the issue or prevent a clear result. It will ensure that the referendum can be held no later than the end of 2014, and it will ensure that important aspects of normal referendum law that would otherwise be outside the Scottish Parliament’s competence can be included in the referendum Bill, such as the rules governing campaign broadcasts and mail shots. It will also make the Scottish Government and Parliament responsible for setting the detailed rules and regulations governing the referendum. That is an important responsibility, and, as more than one Member has observed, one to which the world will pay close attention. The Deputy First Minister said that the highest international standards would apply to the referendum, and we shall all be holding her to account.

The right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), who has already played and, I believe, will continue to play an important and increasingly decisive role in the forthcoming campaign, pointed out that the Scottish Government would have to respond to the advice of the Electoral Commission on the wording of the question and the setting of the various spending limits for the referendum campaign. I look forward to hearing the Scottish Government’s rationale for the spending limits that they have devised. Apart from the argument that people do not like money to be spent during elections, I have heard no rationale that challenges the established limits set by the Electoral Commission. It is important that we, and all who will participate in the referendum, understand the reasons for the proposed financial limits.

If the Scottish Government choose not to accept the Electoral Commission’s advice, they will have to justify their decision. As a number of Members have pointed out, the UK Government’s position is clear: they have never failed to accept Electoral Commission advice on a referendum question. The Scottish Government will also have to specify the franchise for the referendum, and if they choose to extend it to 16 and 17-year-olds, they will have to answer the important questions about data protection and access to the register for information relating to minors to which my hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest (Mrs Laing) referred. In turn, it will be for the Scottish Parliament to scrutinise the Scottish Government’s legislation. It will have to examine all the proposals carefully.

Members have expressed concern about the current operation of the Scottish Parliament. Like the hon. Members for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson) and for Glasgow East (Margaret Curran), I was once a Member of the Scottish Parliament. At that time, when Labour was in a coalition with the Liberal Democrats and had a majority in the Parliament, it was always members of the Scottish National party who feared that their views might not be given due weight because there was a majority Government. I expect them to behave now as they behaved then in speaking up for minority views and ensuring that they are heard in the Scottish Parliament. I want them to make us confident that the Bill will be debated in a way that takes account of the views of all the people of Scotland. However, I myself am confident that my colleagues, Opposition Members and our Liberal Democrat coalition partners will be able to hold the SNP Government to account as the Bill is debated, in order to ensure that the referendum is legal, fair and decisive.

The memorandum of agreement signed by the Prime Minister, the First Minister, the Secretary of State and the Deputy First Minister on 15 October was an important first step. That was an important moment not just because of the agreement that had been reached, but because of the very public commitment given by Scotland’s two Governments to ensure that the referendum would meet the very highest standards, and that party politics and passions on both sides of the debate would not intervene in the establishment of a legitimate and fair process. It will be for both sides to stand by and live up to the agreement, and the UK Government give that commitment unreservedly.

There are clearly strong feelings in the House about 16 and 17-year-olds having a vote. As has been said, there will be a debate in Backbench Business Committee time next week, when Members will be able to discuss the topic in more depth. I believe any decision by the Scottish Government to allow 16 and 17-year-olds to vote will not achieve a partisan objective, as I am confident that when the votes are counted we will see that support for remaining an integral part of our United Kingdom comes from young and old alike.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

Does the Minister share my pleasure in the latest poll result, which included 16 and 17-year-olds and showed that the Better Together campaign currently has a 20-point lead?

[David Mundell]

I was very pleased to see that, but I am not complacent and all of us who support Scotland’s remaining part of the United Kingdom must get out and about in Scotland, under the leadership of the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West, and make sure we get our message to all parts of Scotland.

The hon. Lady made a point about 16 and 17-year-old sons and daughters of servicemen. The hon. Member for Airdrie and Shotts (Pamela Nash) and others stressed the need to allow our servicemen and women and their partners to vote, and there are procedures in place for that, but there are no procedures for their 16 and 17-year-old children. The Scottish Government must address that matter.

There has been much consideration of the Electoral Commission, and all Members who spoke about it—apart, perhaps, from those on the Scottish National party Benches—made it clear that they would accept the views of the Electoral Commission, even if it did not adopt their party’s position on the referendum question and funding. We should all welcome the fact that under this agreement the Electoral Commission will play a role, because only a few months ago the Scottish Government did not wish the Electoral Commission to play any part in the referendum, and wished instead to set up their own electoral commission.

To those who asked what would happen if the Scottish Government did not follow the advice of the Electoral Commission, I say this: the people of Scotland will not take kindly to being played for a fool. Public trust is a precious commodity and, as the First Minister discovered following his recent comments on the EU, it can be quickly lost. I say to Alex Salmond, “Ignore the advice of the Electoral Commission at your peril.”

We have not heard about process alone in this debate. We have also heard about why this order matters. It matters because people want to get on with the real debate. Not only politicians, but ordinary people in Scotland, and each and every one of us who will be asked to cast a vote, want to hear about the real issues.

It is perfectly legitimate for the UK Government to set out Scotland’s current position within our United Kingdom in a series of papers, which we will do this year. The hon. Member representing the Western Isles tells us we will have 15 papers from the Scottish Government. We look forward to that, but I hope they shed more light than anything we have heard from them so far.

The agreement reached between the UK and Scottish Governments will ensure that a referendum on Scottish independence can take place. The section 30 order we have debated today ensures that there will be a single-question referendum on independence before the end of 2014. The memorandum of understanding ensures that the referendum will be based on the principles set out for referendums held across the UK. Together, the order and the memorandum mean that we can have a referendum that is legal, fair and decisive. I believe we are better together in the United Kingdom than we would ever be apart, and I commend the order to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the draft Scotland Act 1998 (Modification of Schedule 5) Order 2013, which was laid before this House on 22 October 2012, be approved.

Food Banks (Scotland)

Debate between David Mundell and Fiona O'Donnell

Wednesday 19th December 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Mr Betts. I congratulate the hon. Member for Glenrothes (Lindsay Roy) on securing this debate, and I thank all Members who have taken part. I have listened to some positive things being said not just about food banks but about other voluntary and community organisations operating across Scotland and in individual constituencies.

I put on record my thanks to the many organisations that provide food banks and other services, and especially to their volunteers. Many such organisations, if not most, are set up by charities and churches, which have a valuable role to play in supporting the most vulnerable in their local communities. We should feel thankful for the work that they do to provide support in sometimes desperate situations. As some Members have acknowledged—including the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson), who gave a thoughtful speech, as ever—such organisations have been doing that work for a considerable time.

Although I will address the issue of the increase in the use of food banks, we should not suggest that the work of such organisations, or the need to help and support the most vulnerable in our society, began recently. The issue is ongoing and serious, and it must be constantly challenged and worked on. Many Members gave many indications of that in their contributions, including examples such as unexpected bills, whatever their source, for those on low incomes.

Much of what we have heard recently about food banks has been through the findings of the Trussell Trust, a network of food banks providing services throughout Scotland and the UK. The Department for Work and Pensions, through Jobcentre Plus, has worked with the Trussell Trust to establish a food bank referral service, a simple signposting process to help claimants who say that they are in financial difficulty find alternative sources of assistance. People will not be referred where assistance and support is available directly from Jobcentre Plus.

What Opposition Members did not tell us is that when they were in Government, Labour refused to allow food banks to advertise by putting leaflets in jobcentres. This Government have allowed them to, and jobcentre advisers now also tell people about food banks. Some of the expansion, although not all, is due to the fact that people now know about the existence of food banks who did not know before we told them. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions told Parliament in September:

“When we came to office, I was told by the Department that despite the constant requests from a variety of people who provide food banks, in particular the Trussell Trust, to put their leaflets in jobcentres to advertise what they were doing, the last Government said no, because they did not want the embarrassment of their involvement. We immediately allowed them to do so, which is one reason for the increase in the number of people seeking food banks.”—[Official Report, 10 September 2012; Vol. 550, c. 13.]

[Fiona O'Donnell]

It is unbelievable: the Minister almost seems to be congratulating himself on the scale of growth of food banks. That and payday lending are the only areas in which this Government are delivering any growth.

[David Mundell]

I am afraid that I am not going to take any lessons from the hon. Lady, who had the temerity to quote “The Grapes of Wrath” in this Chamber but takes absolutely no responsibility for bringing this country to the brink of bankruptcy and creating the backdrop for the situation in which people now find themselves in so much difficulty. The Labour spokesman for Scotland, the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain), was as lucid as the shadow Chancellor in setting out exactly how Labour would deal with the issues. It comes back to the same things: more borrowing, more spending and more debt. That is exactly what got us into this difficulty and why we are in such difficult times.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David Mundell and Fiona O'Donnell

Wednesday 9th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[David Mundell]

I am sure that the Under-Secretary will have understood the hon. Lady’s point. She, like me, will welcome the fact that there will be a Backbench Business Committee debate on fisheries next week.

[Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

10. What discussions he has had with the Scottish Government on the level of unemployment in Scotland.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I are in regular contact with John Swinney, the Scottish Minister responsible for employment, about unemployment in Scotland. Scottish Government officials and agencies have been involved in all the employment seminars that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has held over the past six months.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

Will the Minister tell the people in my constituency who have lost their jobs since he got his job whether unemployment is a price worth paying for a deficit reduction plan that is choking off growth and raising Government debt?

[David Mundell]

I tell the hon. Lady to be slightly less predictable and finally to take some responsibility for the situation in which her Government left this country, including the biggest peacetime deficit in our history.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David Mundell and Fiona O'Donnell

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

10. When he last met anti-poverty campaigners in Scotland to discuss the potential effect in Scotland of the measures in the Welfare Reform Bill.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)]

The Secretary of State for Scotland and I are in regular contact with ministerial colleagues in the Department for Work and Pensions. We also meet regularly organisations in Scotland with an interest in welfare and combating poverty.

--- Later in debate ---

[Fiona O'Donnell]

Like you, Mr Speaker, I am feeling in a generous mood, so I will give the Under-Secretary of State a third chance to redeem himself. The Prime Minister’s excuse for removing the mobility component was that it addressed an anomaly between those in hospital and those in residential care. Will the Under-Secretary of State at least acknowledge that residential care homes are based on a social model, and not a medical model?

[David Mundell]

I certainly acknowledge that residential care homes are social rather than medical institutions primarily. However, as the hon. Lady will know, having been present at this morning’s debate in Westminster Hall, many care homes operate the mobility aspect of disability living allowance differently. The basis on which it is applied to a person in a home in Scotland and what it is applied for is dependent on which home they are in. I am sure she will agree that that is not acceptable.

Scotland Bill

Debate between David Mundell and Fiona O'Donnell

Monday 7th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[David Mundell]

My understanding is that the Scottish Parliament would at this stage be able to take forward its own proposals in relation to a gun or implement of that type. As I understand it, we are not at the stage of having a definition for the weapon in relation to the incident, but there are implements of that nature for which the Scottish Parliament already has the power to make provision, as the hon. Gentleman knows.

[Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

Will the Minister confirm that BB guns are covered by the 1968 Act?

[David Mundell]

There are definitions in the 1968 Act of certain weapons. A BB gun is not defined as a type of gun in that regard. It would be within the remit of the Scottish Parliament to make provisions in that regard as part of its ongoing responsibilities.

The clause will allow the Scottish Parliament the freedom to design its own controls over air weapons, while allowing the UK Government to retain a consistent regulatory framework across the UK for the most dangerous weapons. That will send the clear signal that the UK does not tolerate deadly weapons. As I have said, it is important to note that we are considering not what law on air weapons should apply in Scotland, but who should be responsible for taking that decision. The clause will not automatically create a separate regime in Scotland, but it will give the Scottish Parliament responsibility for that decision. Any consideration of an alternative regime will require the Scottish Government, the Scottish Parliament and other stakeholders to listen to all the views represented in Scotland and, crucially, to work through any cross-border issues that arise.

Amendment 39 would ensure that the 1968 Act continues to apply until the Scottish Parliament puts a new regulatory regime in place.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David Mundell and Fiona O'Donnell

Wednesday 1st December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

Order. This sort of noise is very discourteous. I want to hear Fiona O’Donnell.

[Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

The voluntary sector in Scotland plays a vital role in supporting some of our most vulnerable families. The increase in VAT will cost Scotland’s voluntary sector dearly. What is the Minister actually doing to support that sector, so that it can deliver his vision of a big society?

[David Mundell]

This Government are committed to supporting the voluntary sector in Scotland and elsewhere in the UK, but the hon. Lady should tell people in that sector and elsewhere in Scotland that the rise in VAT is a consequence of her party’s Government’s overspending.

Constitutional Law

Debate between David Mundell and Fiona O'Donnell

Wednesday 24th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[David Mundell]

I give way to the hon. Member for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell).

[Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

Perhaps we can reframe the question. With 60 seconds on the doorstep to speak to a voter in your constituency, will you talk to them about the AV referendum, or will you press the case for your party in Scotland?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. It is not me who will be doing that. I would be grateful if hon. Members addressed their remarks to the Minister, not to me.

--- Later in debate ---

[Fiona O'Donnell]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give his view on the count taking place that night? Would it be the count for one, two or three ballots? Does he foresee a problem if the counts are split, and the postal ballots are returned together in one envelope?

[David Mundell]

The hon. Lady makes a valid point about postal votes and how they will be dealt with, and we will speak to the Electoral Management Board about that. It is already clear that counts for the Scottish Parliament constituency and regional elections will take place ahead of any count for the alternative vote referendum.