Energy Generation

David Mowat Excerpts

Wednesday 17th April 2013 Westminster Hall

[Andrew George]

I am grateful to the Minister for that clarification. It is true; I looked through the coalition agreement and could not find a reference to the slogan. Nevertheless, it is a commitment of the Prime Minister on behalf of the Government that everyone who supports the Government is aware of and supports.

I am sorry that my hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice) is not here. He strongly supports the west Cornwall wave hub, which makes landfall in Hayle, a former part of my constituency. I hope that Ministers will come to look at the project and give it the additional support that it needs in terms of wave energy and floating offshore wind energy.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Andrew George]

I am afraid that I will not give way, because I am coming to a close. The primary issue is that when the Energy Bill returns to the Floor of the House, I hope that the Minister will give us an opportunity to reflect properly on the economic case for the early setting of a decarbonisation target.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George). I congratulate him on securing the debate, and even more on being absolutely true to his principles and honouring the pledge that he and a number of his colleagues made more than a year ago. It is absolutely right that he has raised the matter in this forum, where we can take some time to develop the arguments, because, as he suggests, during consideration on Report of the Energy Bill in the main Chamber it will perhaps be more difficult to go into the same detail and depth. I am, therefore, very grateful to him for introducing the debate in this way.

I pay tribute to the Government—and to the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change for his interlocutions and iterations with the Treasury—for their commitment of £7.6 billion under the levy control framework up to 2020. That is a significant achievement, which will be important for low-carbon generation in this country. It is £7.6 billion from people’s energy bills to pay for new low-carbon energy generation that will increase energy security, reduce the cost of energy bills in the long term and ensure that we meet our moral and legal obligations to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions. So far, so good; I am with the Minister and with the Government.

Industry has welcomed the commitment, but has also clearly said that it is not enough. The £7.6 billion is security for only seven years. In the words of DONG energy,

“it is a case of having a cliff edge at the moment; 2020 is a big milestone”––[Official Report, Energy Public Bill Committee, 15 January 2013; c. 58, Q175.]

Andrew Buglass from the Royal Bank of Scotland told the Energy Bill Committee that the cliff edge is making it very difficult for supply chain investors to invest in the UK. Overcoming the insecurity created by the 2020 cliff edge does not require more public money, or even the promise of more money; it requires coherence, in the form of a 2030 target that proves to industry that the demand for low-carbon energy will continue to rise beyond 2020. The shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex), quoted Mr Buglass in a sitting of the Energy Bill Committee, saying that

“a 2030 target ‘is absolutely critical from the conversations I have with potential supply-chain investors because they quite rightly point out that it is very difficult for them to take investment to their board if they really only have visibility on three or four years-worth of work.’”––[Official Report, Energy Public Bill Committee, 7 February 2013; c. 570.]

It is clear that what we are facing in 2020 is a cliff edge—a milestone—and the Government, without necessarily committing considerable excess funding at this stage, somehow have to be able to give a signal to industry and investors that this is the direction of travel the Government are taking and that they can confidently lay down their investments in the knowledge that they will get a clear return.

[David Mowat]

I am listening carefully to the logic flow of the hon. Gentleman’s position. What puzzles me a little is that Germany has four times as many renewables as the UK, in spite of its much higher carbon emissions per capita and per unit of GDP. It would be a step in the right direction if we emulated Germany. Germany does not, however, have a target—how did that happen?

[Barry Gardiner]

If the hon. Gentleman reads the record of the written evidence that was given to the Energy Bill Committee, he will see that no less a figure than David Kennedy, chief executive of the Committee on Climate Change, which independently advises the Government, said that the context in Germany is different. A low-carbon trajectory has already been established there, precisely for the reasons the hon. Gentleman suggests—four times as many renewables are already in place. People in Germany are not in doubt about what their Government are going to do or about the direction of travel.

[David Mowat]

We often take Germany as an example of best in class in such matters, so it is right to make absolutely sure that on the record we have the point that Germany’s carbon emissions are 20% higher per head and 23% higher per unit of GDP than the UK’s, principally because of the amount of coal burnt, which makes the renewables activity irrelevant. I thank the hon. Gentleman for his answer.

[Barry Gardiner]

I am happy to allow the hon. Gentleman to get what he wishes on the record. He is at perfect liberty to make his own remarks later, and I trust he will do so, but I point out that Germany, by going away from nuclear generation, will see a significant rise in emissions—not only there, but in neighbouring countries. Germany has been a net exporter of low-carbon electricity to its neighbours, and that also is going and will create substantial problems for Europe as a whole in meeting its emissions reduction targets. It will also present severe problems for Europe’s response to the challenge of global warming. Ultimately, I think Germany will move through that transition, away from coal.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Weir]

I have just explained the mixed signals through the carbon targets, the gas strategy and the failure to set a decarbonisation target. The hon. Gentleman has argued, as Ministers did in Committee, that we have a 2050 target, which no other country has but, as the hon. Member for Brent North rightly pointed out, there is a difference from the past. There is a strong movement towards renewable energy production in Germany and especially in Denmark, which is heavily into wind. In fact, Denmark took over leadership of the wind energy industry from the UK in the 1970s, and has invested heavily in it. It is much more advanced and is clearly going down the renewable route. Professor Mitchell from Exeter university said in our evidence session:

“If you look at what has been going on just in terms of the EMR over the last two years, we have a lobby full of nuclear industry, strong movements for renewables and now a gas strategy coming out of the Treasury. It is an incredibly uncertain world for those who wish to invest, going into the long term.”––[Official Report, Energy Public Bill Committee, 15 January 2013; c. 72, Q217.]

That is the message that industry is getting. Siemens appeared before the Committee, as did Gamesa, which has said publicly that it is concerned about the matter and fears that it might affect future investment.

The Government need to make it clear that they intend to proceed with the decarbonisation of energy, as those mixed messages are causing concern. If we are to have green energy for the future, it is crucial that a supply chain is established to help us reap the economic benefits and jobs that come with it. We must not end up, as we have in the past, importing kit—turbines and whatever else—to ensure that we can meet the energy challenges.

[David Mowat]

I have not been in the Chamber from the outset, but the hon. Gentleman was the first to use the word “nuclear” in the debate. France has some of the lowest carbon emissions in Europe. Would he support an expansion of our civil nuclear programme so that we can be like France and have much lower emissions than the average in Europe?

[Mr Weir]

The hon. Gentleman obviously was not here at the beginning of the debate, because we had quite a big discussion about nuclear. He knows perfectly well that I do not support nuclear power, but that is an entirely different argument, which I will not get into at this stage, Mr Gray, as I am sure that you would rule me out of order. I will just say in passing that negotiations with EDF over Hinkley and the costs of nuclear have raised huge concerns about its affordability—never mind the other concerns that have been raised over nuclear. We have been promised details on that matter, which we will hopefully receive before we discuss the Bill on Report. Certainly, some of the things that are being reported at the moment give us huge cause for concern.

I was saying that during our debates on the Energy Bill, Ministers made the point that other countries did not have decarbonisation targets, but those countries are further ahead in creating that supply chain, which is something that we are trying to do almost from scratch. In an evidence session, David Handley of Renewable Energy Systems said:

“The value of a 2030 decarbonisation target, as we heard earlier, is in providing that greater signal to the supply chain, to the entrepreneurs who are looking to invest in new businesses and to the people who are developing projects that there is going to be this long-term market for the products that they are delivering.”—[Official Report, Energy Public Bill Committee, 15 January 2013; c. 57, Q168.]

That point was also made by DONG Energy. As the hon. Member for Brent North said, it saw 2020 as a cliff edge for investment. Given the long-term commitment required, that is a serious drawback.

Offshore wind has, I believe, a strong and vibrant future. There are plans to install up to 10 GW of capacity in Scottish waters over the next decade, including three projects off the coast of Angus in my constituency. They promise not only employment in renewables but a boost for the port of Montrose, which has good prospects for supplying and maintaining wind farms in the future.

Many more sites are being looked at for deployment in the 2020s, alongside commercial wave and tidal generation. We must ensure that we send a clear and unambiguous message that we want those developments and will continue to push the decarbonisation of our energy sector. If we fail to do so, we will not reap the economic benefits that are available in the sector. As the hon. Member for St Ives noted, much of the growth at the moment, although low, is coming from green industry. If we fail in this area, we will limit even further our prospects for growth in future.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) on securing this debate.

When we served on the Joint Committee on the draft Climate Change Bill, we heard from manufacturers how much they wanted certainty. They said, “Well, whatever you decide, whatever you do, certainty is what we want. We want to have that message. We want to know exactly what we are doing.”

The decarbonisation of the power sector is vital, not only in its own right but as a contribution to decarbonisation in other sectors, such as transport, industry and buildings. If we delay setting decarbonisation targets, that will lead to an increased reliance on gas. We can all understand why we had North sea gas and why we then imported gas to take over from North sea gas, but can anybody understand why a country would wish to rely so much on imported gas now? First, importing gas contributes to greenhouse gases and the speeding-up of climate change, but secondly, following the oil crisis in the ’70s, surely we must understand the volatility of oil prices and, linked to them, gas prices. In addition, there is increased world demand and the volatility of some nations that supply gas to us. Furthermore, the versatility of gas means that when we do have it there are things that we should be using it for, such as piping it directly to industry or homes.

As for shale gas, it is highly controversial in a densely populated country such as our own, and costs will certainly escalate before it can be extracted, not to mention the carbon footprint that its extraction will leave behind. However, tacitly encouraging—

[David Mowat]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Nia Griffith]

No, the hon. Gentleman has had many chances to talk; I will give way only to someone who has not yet had a turn.

Tacitly encouraging more reliance on imported gas looks even more bizarre when we have huge potential here for renewables, particularly—

--- Later in debate ---

[Tom Greatrex]

I agree. We are grappling with the legislation because we do not know the detail of how that will operate. Again, in Committee we received assurance from the then Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes), that that will be forthcoming, but it has not yet emerged. Not only can we not scrutinise it, but the companies, to which the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) was going to refer before he had to truncate his speech, cannot.

Finally, Ministers speak about setting a decarbonisation target, as the Deputy Prime Minister did on the very afternoon that we moved amendments in Committee that the Liberal Democrats failed to support, but that is not to say that this is about setting a target. As others have said, it is about the power perhaps to set a target. The Government may set a target, but they might not. The longer this goes on, all we are doing is storing up lack of certainty, which means that the costs will not necessarily come down as fast as they might and that we cannot get the benefit of jobs and growth from the shift to the green economy that is happening—and it will have to happen in any case.

[David Mowat]

It is right that the costs need to come down, and, of course, activity will drive down the costs. There is a school of thought that says that excessive subsidies stop costs coming down, but I accept that costs need to come down. Does the shadow Minister accept that these are global industries and that global activity, not just UK activity, is what will drive down costs?

[Tom Greatrex]

There is activity in other parts of the globe, and these are global companies making global investment decisions. To get the costs down we need scale, and to get scale we need manufacturing. That manufacturing will not happen without the sense of a long-term trajectory in that part of the energy sector in this country.

I am conscious that I am about to run out of time, but I hope that we get the opportunity on Report to debate the issue fully. I am sure that the cross-party amendment will draw a degree of support from across all parties, as has been demonstrated this afternoon.