Employment Law: Devolution to Scotland

David Linden Excerpts

Tuesday 6th September 2022 Westminster Hall

[Angela Crawley]

The hon. Lady makes a number of points. Given her ardent belief in the Union, she would argue that this is the best place in the world for the protection of workers’ rights, yet we on the SNP Benches have repeatedly—in every facet, in every forum, in every piece of legislation—attempted to encourage the Government to reform employment law and they have failed to do so.

[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

Does my hon. Friend, like me, find it rather bizarre that the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine) seems to have overlooked the fact that the predecessor of my hon. Friend the Member for East Dunbartonshire (Amy Callaghan) was an employment Minister in a Lib Dem coalition? If there was such a need to reform employment law, why did the Lib Dems not do that?

[Angela Crawley]

Absolutely. There was ample opportunity when the Lib Dems were in the coalition to transform employment law, and that did not happen.

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[David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)]

It is, as always, a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Lanark and Hamilton East (Angela Crawley) for securing and opening the debate.

It is fitting that we should be having this debate today of all days, when the right hon. Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) has just been appointed Prime Minister, not least because, if the rumours are to be believed, the right hon. Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng) will be her Chancellor. Even more worryingly, the right hon. Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg) is set to be Secretary of State for Business—if it was 1 April, most of us probably would not take that seriously.

Part of the reason I think it is appropriate to have this debate today is that our new Prime Minister and our new Chancellor authored a book in 2012 called “Britannia Unchained”. I do not know if the Minister has read the book; unfortunately I have read all of it, and it is pretty grim reading. It asserts that the UK has a

“bloated state, high taxes and excessive regulation”.

It then says:

“The British are among the worst idlers in the world. We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor. Whereas Indian children aspire to be doctors or businessmen, the British are more interested in football and pop music.”

That is the view of our current Prime Minister and our soon-to-be Chancellor, in writing about employment legislation and regulations. That highlights why it is so important that employment legislation is devolved to the Scottish Parliament. The idea that we would have Conservatives continuing to be in control of employment legislation really is akin to leaving a lion in charge of an abattoir.

Let us look at the Conservative party’s record on employment legislation. Take, for example, the Trade Union Act 2016—the anti-trade union Act. The irony will not have been lost on most of us that that Act requires a certain threshold to be met in order for workers to withdraw their labour, yet the Prime Minister did not achieve that very threshold yesterday as she was elected leader of the Conservative party. There is a case here that what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

My hon. Friends the Members for East Dunbartonshire (Amy Callaghan) and for Lanark and Hamilton East have already touched on the fact that there has been no employment Bill. The reason that we were promised an employment Bill was that, after the Brexit referendum, we were told that Brexit was about improving workers’ rights and environmental standards. The only thing that has happened in connection to any of that is that we are now pumping raw sewage out to sea. That gives us a fairly clear indication of where the Government plan to go if they bring forward an employment Bill: it will not be to strengthen workers’ rights.

My hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands) has done a ton of campaigning on fire and rehire legislation; shamefully, the Government talked out the private Member’s Bill that was introduced. We have seen little action on P&O Ferries and the shocking treatment of its staff, including one of my own constituents. My hon. Friend the Member for Lanark and Hamilton East has been doggedly pursuing the Government in her campaign for paid miscarriage leave, something that anybody with an ounce of compassion in their hearts—and the Conservative party like to talk about being compassionate conservatives—should support. That has not been legislated for. I would love to know the Government’s objection to paid miscarriage leave, which my hon. Friend has fought so valiantly to get on the statute book.

All of that stands in contrast to the efforts of the Scottish Government, even though they are very limited in what they can do in terms of employment. For example, the Scottish Government see trade unions very much as partners, not opponents. We see them as rightly there to stand up for workers’ rights. I myself am very proud to be a member of the Unite trade union. The Scottish Government have the view that trade unions should not be seen as the enemy, but the UK Government constantly see trade unions as some sort of opportunity to play political football. The right hon. Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Grant Shapps) was revelling in every single moment of his dispute with the RMT just recently. He saw it as an opportunity to advance his career—by all accounts, that will probably not do him much good today.

The Scottish Government already have policies that give a clear indication of the direction of travel on supporting workers. We have a clear opposition to zero-hours contracts, which I would call exploitative zero-hours contracts. We have the Scottish Government’s business pledge, which has been refreshed. We have a commitment to the living wage—not the pretend living wage that the UK Government talk about, but the living wage that is actually in line with the Living Wage Foundation and the real cost of living. We fund the Scottish Trades Union Congress with Scottish Union Learning cash.

The devolution of employment law is supported by the Scottish Trades Union Congress. I will wait with great interest to hear from the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) about why the Scottish Labour party opposes the Scottish Trades Union Congress in its call for the devolution of employment law. The Labour party, I understand, considers itself to be the party of devolution, so why on earth does it oppose both the people of Scotland and the Scottish Trades Union Congress on the devolution of employment law?

There is a lot more that I would like to see done if we could devolve employment law. It is quite clear that the UK Government will not bring forward an employment Bill that will adequately improve workers’ rights, but there are a couple of things that I would like us to look at. For example, we must have a very honest conversation, particularly in this place, about the use of unpaid internships. They are absolutely rife in this place: far too many people, presumably even some in my own party, exploit young people from working-class communities by asking them to come down here and do unpaid internships. All of us collectively have to grapple with that. I would like to see a complete ban on unpaid internships and unpaid trial shifts.

I would like us to look at things such as the four-day week. We have just gone through a global pandemic in which the whole nature and world of work have changed enormously. There are a number of things that we could do by learning from the pandemic, and a four-day week is just one. I also want us to deliver proper enforcement of national minimum wage legislation. We have had national minimum wage legislation in statute since 1997, but there have been some years since when the number of prosecutions has been in single figures—if there have been any at all.

There is so much more that we could do with the devolution of employment powers, but in rounding off my speech, I want to go back to the theme I started with, which is the book that our current Prime Minister’s entire political philosophy is based on: “Britannia Unchained”. The reality is that for so long as Scotland remains chained to this failing Union, and this disgusting Conservative Government, I am afraid that we will see more policies like this. By all means, we can call for the devolution of employment law, but we could do something much better: unchain ourselves from this place with the powers of independence.

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[Mhairi Black (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (SNP)]

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Lanark and Hamilton East (Angela Crawley) for bringing the debate forward. When we think of the potential merits of devolving employment law to Scotland, the main one is that the Tories would be nowhere near it. That is the selling point for me and a lot of other people. As we leave the pandemic only to enter a cost of living crisis, it cannot be any clearer how little interest this Government have in the lives of ordinary people. The last 12 years of Tory Government have been nothing more than a project of erosion. Not only is poverty on the rise and has been for years, but in-work poverty is rising, too. People who are working all the hours that God sends still cannot afford to live. Wages have not risen. The UK has the lowest level of sick pay in the OECD, and yet we kid ourselves that we are this great nation—this great United Kingdom—and a beacon for the rest of the world. Well, the stats just do not add up.

If we compare Scotland in the UK to what is happening in similar sized independent nations, we see that it does not have to be like this. Just one example: out of all the workers in the Netherlands, only 6.4% of them are low-wage earners. Of all the workers in Iceland, 7.6% are low-wage earners. Finland has 8.6% low earners and Denmark has 8.7%. In the UK, nearly 20% of all workers are low-wage earners. The countries I just mentioned have fewer people at risk of poverty and in-work poverty. They have fewer employees working extra hours and very long hours. They have a lower gender pay gap. They have sickness benefits that actually cover their wage if they are sick—something unheard of here. They are integrating flexible working patterns and learning from the pandemic, as my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) said earlier. They are figuring out fairer working practices to move with the 21st century.

[David Linden]

I wonder if my hon. Friend could say whether those countries have “Wheel of Fortune”-style things in the morning where people have to phone in and try to win money for their energy bills? In those countries, do they have former Conservative Cabinet Ministers picking the tinfoil off their head and telling them to put it down the back of their radiators to heat their houses?

[Mhairi Black]

Fortunately, they are spared that horror but, here in the UK, that is where we are at: “This Morning” paying bills. Instead of learning from everything that has happened in the pandemic, and trying to integrate fairer work practices, we have a Government running around leaving passive-aggressive notes on desks, telling people to hurry up and get back, when the Prime Minister—sorry, the last Prime Minister—was nowhere to be seen for weeks. They have shown time and again that they cannot be trusted with workers’ rights. All the way from 1830 right through to now, they have proven time and again that they cannot be trusted.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South West (Chris Stephens) mentioned, we had the Taylor review of modern working practices. That was five years ago, and we have heard nothing, because this Government are all about show not substance. The UK has reneged on its promise to protect EU-derived workers’ protections. During the Tory leadership race, the now Prime Minister promised to scrap all remaining EU regulations by the end of 2023. That means that hundreds of laws covering employment and environmental protections will disappear.

Despite the Government’s commitment to an employment Bill on at least 20 occasions, as we have heard from numerous people, it is still nowhere to be seen. I am not talking about little add-ons because we are nice to our workers. I am talking about fundamental rights: how long we need to work, holiday entitlement and sick pay. Those are all fundamental. The UK is being mismanaged into the ground, and has been for a long time.

We heard earlier from the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine), who is no longer in her place. She asked whether these arguments meant that changes to rights should apply across the whole of the UK. That is rubbish, because Northern Ireland has devolution of employment law, so why can Scotland not have that? Secondly, there is the idea that we have to wait for reform across the whole of UK. We have been trying. In just the seven years that I have been in this place, my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands), who was here earlier, had the fire and rehire Bill talked out by the Government. Colleagues have tried to get rid of unpaid work trials, yet nothing has come from that.

It goes even bigger than that. Scotland has always played its part. We have not voted Tory since 1955. Yet all we get is Tory Prime Minister after Tory Prime Minister making empty promises, delivering nothing. Scotland has played its part and, frankly, I am tired of trying to tell people in Scotland who are being pushed into poverty, “Sorry, you just need to wait for the rest of the UK to get its act together.” No, not any more. If there is one thing we can see, it is that countries of a similar size to Scotland are successful and fairer. The only difference is that they are not governed by Westminster.

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[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

It is great to have you in the Chair for this debate, Sir Edward. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Lanark and Hamilton East (Angela Crawley) for securing the debate. At the start of her contribution, she said she wanted the devolution of employment law, to get it away from the Tories. That has been the thrust of the debate.

If we look at the context of where we are since 2010—a long 12 years ago—we can see that in-work poverty, low pay and financial insecurity are up for workers across the country. Incomes have stagnated for over a decade and real-terms pay today is equal to, if not lower than, 2008 levels. Wages have suffered a decade of stagnation, and will continue to do so. It is the worst it has been in over a century. The latest figures show that the level of taxation for working people in this country is at its highest in 70 years, which will result in the largest fall in living standards since records began in the 1950s—who knows when that goes back to? The Living Wage Foundation, one of the great organisations of this country, estimates that over 1 key million workers are in insecure work, lacking basic rights and protections, and that across the whole of the economy, one in nine workers is in insecure work and lacking basic rights.

This is a great debate in which to pay tribute to our trade union colleagues, particularly the Trades Union Congress general secretary Frances O’Grady, for driving a lot of the issues forward. One thing the Government tend to forget is that the most successful companies in this country are those that have good relations with the trade unions and with their employees, where Government, the trade unions, employees and employers work together as partners to create an environment that provides high-quality jobs and pay. It can be done; I say it can be done because the Labour Government that came in in 1997 transformed workers’ rights in this country. I was not in this place at the time, but many of my colleagues who were tell stories of sitting through the night, overnight—maybe you did this yourself, Sir Edward—two, three or four nights in a row, trying to get national minimum wage legislation on to the statute book. That legislation took security guards in this country, who were on the equivalent of 30p an hour, up to a national minimum wage. Of course, now, the difficulty with the national minimum wage is that for too many, it has become a national maximum wage. That is why we need to move on to something much more progressive, and we have committed to do so in the next Labour Government.

All that, alongside the cost of living squeeze—the cost of living crisis—means that things are only getting worse for working people and for the vast majority of the population. Inequality is rising, not just for the individual but across the nations and regions of the UK. When the previous Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson), spoke in Downing Street this morning, he did not even mention levelling up; maybe that was because it was always a slogan, and levelling up does not actually exist. The new Prime Minister, as we have heard already in many of today’s contributions, has promised to outlaw the ability to strike and to break strikes by bringing in agency workers. She has called workers lazy and said that they need to graft more. A new Prime Minister is supposed to come in with a fresh broom to resolve some of the problems in our economy, but it looks like she will make them considerably worse for working people everywhere in the UK, wherever they live.

Some of today’s contributions have been absolutely correct about the consequences of those problems for working people. Everybody in the Government—including, I am sure, the Minister—said with consternation that the P&O fire and rehire was a total disgrace. They were calling in chief executives; they were in the House of Commons at the Dispatch Box. The Secretary of State for Transport derided P&O for what it was doing, yet nothing has happened on the back of that. It is correct that the private Member’s Bill on banning fire and rehire was talked out by this Government. Any reasonable Government would have done what always happens with private Members’ Bills: talk it out because they do not want it to be anyone else’s idea, and then take it on themselves and bring forward something that they could live with. However, there has been nothing on fire and rehire.

As we come out of the covid pandemic, if we set aside all the big issues around the cost of living and insecure work and look at employees and workers themselves, we see something really stark in our economy. I will not give away any confidences, but I know a lot of the British Airways staff quite well because we Members from Scotland travel up and down to London regularly. BA treated its staff abysmally—not just over covid, but for the decade before, whether it be on pension rights, pay and conditions, moving their centres of employment from Edinburgh and Glasgow to London, or consolidating all that by banning them from flying home on commercial flights.

When covid came and BA got rid of a lot of those staff, they went and got other jobs. Some have been re-employed in the industry, and when I speak to them, they tell me that they are now having a much better time working for a different employer. When covid finished and BA was desperate for staff, it went back to ask those people if they would like to be re-employed, and every single one of them said no, as we would expect. Those loyal BA staff had made that company the great British product that it is—employees always drive great products, services and businesses—but they were treated so abysmally that when the company came calling and said, “The proverbial has hit the fan. Will you come and help us?”, they said that they would not. That is partly why our airline industry is in such a bad state at the moment.

British Gas did the same with fire and rehire, so there is a litany of issues for the Government to consider.

[David Linden]

It is absolutely right that we give BA and British Gas an absolute bashing, but one organisation that started using fire and rehire quite early on was Asda, a number of years ago. In considering that litany of employers who have indulged in fire and rehire, it would be remiss of us not to call Asda out on that shameful practice, too.

[Ian Murray]

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman mentioned Asda. We could probably spend the rest of the debate coming up with other companies that have done it. There is an argument to be had about whether we should criticise the companies directly, but they are operating within the legislation. If we do not want employers to use fire and rehire—they are looking after a different set of circumstances—we need to change the legislation to stop them doing so. That is why fire and rehire should have been banned.

This a similar debate to one we had maybe five or 10 years ago about zero-hours contracts. I remember when I was in the shadow team for Business, Innovation and Skills back in 2012, we commissioned Norman Pickavance, who had been the HR director at Morrisons—the supermarkets—to write a report on zero-hours contracts. His report said quite clearly that there were ways to ban zero-hours contracts in their entirety without affecting all the issues that the Government hid behind as excuses for not doing so. Ten years later, zero-hours contracts, the gig economy and forced self-employment are rampant, and there is no employment Bill to deal with them.

Will the Minister address the Government’s objection to the Taylor review? What is their objection? Why is there no Bill to enact its recommendations, and why is the new Prime Minister not introducing one? During a cost of living crisis, workers should not be sacked; they should be made more secure, because people should have confidence that a wage will come in so that they can at least partially pay their energy bills and other bills. We will see what happens on Thursday with the cost of living crisis and energy bills, but I suspect that the responsibility for paying energy bill debt will be passed from the Government to the consumer, which is certainly not something that we support.

I agree with the hon. Member for East Lothian (Kenny MacAskill), who said that there are inconsistencies in devolution. Nobody ever said that devolution was perfect; it was never going to be perfect. Asymmetric devolution is, by its very nature, imperfect, but we have to find mechanisms to run through some of those issues. Devolution has always been a journey, as the hon. Gentleman himself admitted in mentioning Calman, Smith and others, and it will continue to be a journey, particularly for those who are committed to devolution—I am not sure that many in this Chamber are committed to it, with the exception perhaps of myself.

[David Linden]

And your colleague.

[Ian Murray]

Maybe. Well, I am not so sure if the Minister is—maybe she will tell us.

I do not want to get into the issue of bin strikes and so on—the hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) mentioned the strikes—but they go to the heart of something that is infecting our politics at the moment. Our refuse collectors worked all through covid and did a marvellous job, but decided—quite rightly—to strike on the basis that they had been offered a 2% pay rise. People need fair pay rises, particularly the lowest paid. In all our councils across Scotland—it might be the same across England—we have probably the lowest-paid public sector workers out there. They are striking on the basis of pay rates.

We then had an unholy argument in Scotland about who was responsible for the strikes. Then, a few weeks later—one might reflect on adding one and one and getting maybe four, five or two—the First Minister put a funded deal on the table and the strikes were lifted. How can that not be the responsibility of the Scottish Government rather than of the Labour party in Edinburgh? That is beyond my comprehension. That is the kind of debate that we have had, rather than a sensible debate about whether employment law should be devolved to Scotland.

I know that the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Amy Callaghan) has been back a while, but I have not had the opportunity to welcome her back. I wish her well in her continued recovery. Her speech showed that less is more, because she hit the nail on the head with regard to what we should be doing in employment law and getting it away from the Tories. My contention is that the best way to get it away from the Tories is to vote for a UK Labour Government, because it would be better to have a Labour Minister sitting on that side of the Chamber and putting forward Labour policies for workers’ rights.

Can I directly address the hon. Member for Glasgow East? I may misquote him here, but he said that the Scottish Labour party will have to explain why they oppose the devolution of employment law. We do not. The Scottish Labour party’s policy is to devolve employment law. I am not sure if the hon. Member for East Lothian was on the Smith Commission or whether it was his former colleague John Swinney, however, the reason employment law was not devolved was because the UK trade unions did not want that. They were concerned about devolving it without thinking through—

[David Linden]

Will the hon. Member give way?

[Ian Murray]

If the hon. Member will let me finish the point. This is the fact of the Smith Commission. They did not think through the consequences of cross-border employment and cross-border companies and whether it would make at that particular time a much more difficult framework to operate on.

[David Linden]

Can I confirm on the record that the manifesto from the British Labour party for the next general election will have a clear, cast-iron commitment to devolve employment law to the Scottish Parliament?

[Ian Murray]

It will have a clear commitment to implement what we are currently doing in terms of the Labour party’s commission. I am not going to discuss what is in the commission in a Westminster Hall debate because it is being finalised and will be launched in the early part of November. However, the hon. Gentleman will not be disappointed with some of the outcomes of that detailed work.

The commission is not about Scotland as such; it is about all the nations and regions that come under the umbrella of the UK. I know the hon. Gentleman does not believe in the UK, but we do and some of that is in there on devolution. That is the reason the Scottish Labour party, of which I am a member, is entitled to have a different set of policy perspectives from the UK party on a whole host of issues. Gordon Brown’s commission, which will be launched in November, will do some of that.

[Ian Murray]

I cannot recall who was and who was not, but the conversations that went on through the conduit of the TUC, which was responsible for taking those conversations forward, had come to the conclusion by speaking to their members that the UK trade unions would not want to devolve. Those positions may have moved since; in fact, I think the GMB’s position has moved since, which is hardly unsurprising given the state we have.

I am sorry the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Christine Jardine) is not here after that rather difficult and strange intervention. In the time that I was the shadow Minister responsible for employment law, I sat across from the former leader of the Liberal Democrats, Jo Swinson, who was a predecessor, successor and then predecessor again to the Scottish National party in East Dunbartonshire. She was the Minister at the time and took that Bill through the House of Commons, which not only did a whole host of anti-trade union things but extended the qualifying period for employment rights from one to two years. The Liberal Democrats are not sitting on the fence; they are quite clearly on the other side and trying desperately to climb back across the right side. I am disappointed that the hon. Lady came out with that because it undermines her arguments about what she needs to do.

I conclude with a canter through the question of what the Labour party would do. Our deputy leader, my right hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner), launched our fair work policies at conference last year for a new deal for working people. Launching that, she said it was an attempt to make Britain the best place in the world to work. I think it is an attempt to do that. We did not develop those policies in a vacuum of ideology, which is essentially what the previous Government have operated on—I hope the new Government will be slightly better—but by working with our trade union colleagues and employers, and working together to come up with something that can be implemented for the benefit of the economy and workers.

We would strengthen workers’ rights from day one. We would take away that two-year qualifying period and take it down to day one. That is the right thing to do and it gives people security. It cannot be right to be able to sack someone without a reason at one year and 364 days. In fact, the argument I have always made on that is that if we wait until one year and 364 days to find out if someone is good enough, the manager should be sacked for not doing their job properly. They could find out much earlier in the process if someone is good enough for the job they have been employed to do.

We would ban fire and rehire; that is a fairly straightforward thing to do, which would protect workers in this country and create good businesses. I went on holiday by ferry this year, but I just could not travel on P&O; I used another ferry company. When I saw that big P&O sign as I approached Dover, I just felt disgusted that a firm would do what P&O did to its employees at a time when they require their jobs and their wages more than at any time in the past.

Banning fire and rehire would also make work more family-friendly by helping to balance home, community and family life. We have done that before, through the maternity and paternity pay brought in during the last Labour Government. We would extend statutory maternity and paternity pay now that we are out of the European Union. Shared parental leave is a big issue. In fact, I agree with the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) regarding the uptake of shared parental leave, but I do not think it is a legal thing. I think it is a cultural thing and also about equal pay, because all the analysis shows that there is such a low uptake of shared parental leave because it is still the father who is the main or highest earner in a family, and sharing parental leave may be a cultural thing in terms of employers and employees asking for it. Those are some of the cultural barriers that we have to break down.

We would ban zero-hours contracts. All workers have the right to regular contracts and predictable hours, reasonable notice of changes in shifts, and wages paid in full for cancelled shifts. We would strengthen trade union rights, raising pay and conditions, and—crucially—we would use fair pay agreements to drive up the pay and conditions of all workers.

I did not want to be political in this debate, but some of my colleagues from the Scottish National party could not resist being political earlier, so I cannot resist now. One of the key things that a Government can use to drive up standards is procurement, and one of the biggest levers that the Scottish Government could pull, given the powers of the Scottish Parliament, is procurement, using it to drive up standards.

However, we have just seen £700 million of licences for ScotWind being issued to companies with no procurement specifications on wages, local employment, apprenticeships and all those kinds of workers’ rights. So, yes, devolving these matters might be the right thing to do, but my challenge to the SNP is not about the principle of devolution but to tell us what it would with it.

[David Linden]

I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman missed the point made in a number of our speeches when we talked precisely about the Scottish Government’s business pledge, which has baked within it various levers regarding how we use procurement. Which parts of the Scottish business pledge does he object to that the Scottish Government have already got in place?

[Ian Murray]

The main thing that I object to about the Scottish Government’s pledges and strategies and documents is that they tend to be launched with huge fanfare, including big front pages in the newspapers and pictures of the First Minister plastered all over the television, and then those pledges and documents go on to some shelf somewhere and sit there until they are relaunched again, about one or two years later. The proof is always in the pudding, but I am not sure that the Scottish Government even attempt to make the pudding; they just bring the recipe out now and again. That is my biggest criticism, because it happens on climate, on procurement and in other areas. If the hon. Gentleman wants me to answer the question directly, that is my objection.

There is no objection from Labour to the principle of the devolution of employment law. However, there are lots of issues to work through regarding what it would be like in practice. I want to hear what the Minister has to say about the employment practices of this country, her objection to the Taylor review and bringing its recommendations forward in a piece of legislation, and what the Government—the new Government—will do. Who knows? The Minister might be in the new Government. I see she has her phone on the table; perhaps it will ring shortly and she will have to excuse herself to run away and take a call.

Whatever the Minister’s answer to such a call is, the Government really have to look at what is happening now in the country—with the low growth, high inflation, high tax and stagnation that we have—and find a way to break out of that real problem in the economy. The best way to do that is to have a highly skilled, highly productive, highly stable workforce with career progression. Otherwise, we will end up in 20 years’ time still having the same arguments about why we have a problem in this country with productivity and why we also have a problem in this country with low pay and insecure work.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Jane Hunt)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Edward.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Lanark and Hamilton East (Angela Crawley) on securing this important debate on the potential merits of devolving employment law to Scotland. As Members can well imagine, there is an awful lot for me to respond to, so I probably will not take interventions at this stage, because I do not think there will be time for me to do so.

As the hon. Member is aware, employment matters are reserved to the UK Parliament under the Scotland Act 1998, with a few exceptions, such as the subject matter of the Agricultural Wages (Scotland) Act 1949. The Government have no intention of devolving legislative competence for employment rights matters to the Scottish Government.

The Scotland Acts of 1998, 2012 and 2016 have created one of the most powerful devolved Governments in the world. The Scottish devolution settlement gives the Scottish Parliament power over numerous aspects of its governance and strikes a good balance. The current settlement was agreed between the Scottish Government and the UK Government after extensive cross-party consultation and discussion by the Smith Commission.

We strongly believe that in order for the labour market to work most effectively across Great Britain, the underlying legislative framework concerning rights and responsibilities in the workplace needs to be consistent and must not be devolved to the Scottish Parliament. Employers and employees benefit hugely from a single, simple system where employment rights are the same across Great Britain, whether someone is working in Dunstable or Dundee. Devolving employment rights to Scotland could create a two-tier employment rights framework, with Scotland adopting different policy and legislation to England and Wales. This would create a significant burden for businesses. It would be costly for employers who operate on both sides of the border, as they would need to understand the differences between the systems and potentially implement different sets of policies and procedures.

[David Linden]

In the 25 minutes left, will the Minister give way?

[Jane Hunt]

I have an awful lot to get through, but I will allow one intervention.

[David Linden]

The Minister makes a point about companies operating over borders and having different employment practices to adhere to. She is, of course, fully aware that employment law is devolved in Northern Ireland. She mentions Dunstable and Dundee. Notwith-standing the lovely big sea border that her Government have just put down in the Irish sea, which I know some in her party are vexed about, why is it good enough for people in Larne but not people in Livingston?