Sentencing Bill

Debate between David Lammy and Ben Obese-Jecty

2nd reading
Tuesday 16th September 2025 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lammy]

I pay tribute to the right hon. Member’s constituents for fighting to ensure that we got the balance right. At the heart of this—again, I will come on to this, and I know it will be explored in depth in Committee—the system of exclusion zones we have effectively excludes people from areas, and a lot of women who face domestic violence, who have had stalkers or who have faced violent men have had the situation where someone has been excluded. What we are doing is turning that on its head and restricting the individual to a particular place, house or street, which will give those women much more safety than they have had previously. I hope that her constituents will welcome that, because I know it is something that domestic violence campaigners in particular were calling for.

I want to thank David Gauke and his panel of criminal justice experts for carrying out the independent sentencing review, which laid the groundwork for the Bill. It was a thorough, comprehensive and excellent piece of work. I went through it in detail, obviously, when I got into the job. I also thank my predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood), for her work in bringing the Bill to this point.

When it comes to prison places running out, the constituents of Members right across the House ask, “Why don’t we just build more prisons?” That is what they ask on the street. In their 14 years in office, how many prison cells did the Conservatives find? I have shadowed the Foreign Affairs brief or been in the Foreign Affairs job for about three and a half or four years, so I could not quite believe the figure when I arrived in the Department. I thought it was wrong. In 14 years in office, 500 cells were all they found—500!

[Ben Obese-Jecty (Huntingdon) (Con)]

Earlier at Justice questions, the right hon. Gentleman’s Department attempted to take credit for HMP Millsike—and for its 1,468 places, which were confirmed to me in a written parliamentary answer—even though it was approved under the Conservative Government. Does he acknowledge that that prison was in fact started under the Conservative Government in 2021?

[Mr Lammy]

The truth is that we are building places faster than the Victorians did. [Interruption.] We will have built 14,000 by 2031—

--- Later in debate ---

[Ben Obese-Jecty]

Answer the question!

[Mr Lammy]

If the hon. Gentleman stops baying like a child and lets me come to the point, he asks me about the Conservatives’ record and their record was this: violence up in prisons, self-harm up in prisons, suicide skyrocketing in prisons, assaults rising by 113% and assaults on staff rising by 217%. That was their record. The hon. Gentleman can look at it in detail in the Ministry of Justice figures.

[Ben Obese-Jecty]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way on that point?

[Mr Lammy]

I will always give way to a brass neck.

[Ben Obese-Jecty]

The right hon. Gentleman will not remember but I used to live adjacent to his constituency, and I remember what he was like as a local MP. He did not answer my question about the 1,468 places at HMP Millsike. He accuses me of “baying like a child”, and I appreciate that when he is on the back foot, he likes to give a little nervous chuckle to avoid answering the question, but instead of deflecting, will he address the point about the prison places that his Minister claimed this morning were built by his Government when they were in fact started four years ago by the last Conservative Government?

[Mr Lammy]

I have to say, the hon. Gentleman has not challenged the 500 figure. He should read the Ministry of Justice releases. Five hundred! We will have 14,000 by 2031—

[Ben Obese-Jecty]

You won’t.

[Mr Lammy]

We are not in 2031. The hon. Gentleman will be allowed to stand up in 2031 and tell us if we have not achieved that, but it is our ambition and it is what we will achieve.

[Ben Obese-Jecty]

rose—

[Mr Lammy]

I have had fun with the hon. Gentleman, but I must make some progress.

The Government are funding the largest expansion since the Victorians. In our first year, we opened nearly 2,500 new places, and, as I said to the hon. Gentleman, we are on track to add 14,000 by 2031. In the next four years alone, we will spend £4.7 billion on prison building, answering the question that our constituents ask: “Where are the prisons?” However, unless we act on sentencing as well, we could still run out of places by early next year. Demand is projected to outstrip supply by many thousands in spring 2028. We cannot simply build our way out. We must reform sentencing and deliver punishment that works.

The Government’s starting point is clear: the public must be protected. More than 16,000 prisoners convicted of the most serious and heinous crimes are serving extended determinate or life sentences. Those serving the former can be released early only by the independent Parole Board, and those serving the latter can only ever be released at its discretion. Nothing in the Bill will change that, because it is punishment that works. Those who commit the gravest crimes will continue to face the toughest sentences.

Middle East

Debate between David Lammy and Ben Obese-Jecty

Monday 23rd June 2025 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lammy]

We were not involved. Over the weekend, I spoke to my Cypriot and Lebanese counterparts, and in the days before that, I spoke to all counterparts in the Gulf. Of course we are working to de-escalate at this time.

[Ben Obese-Jecty (Huntingdon) (Con)]

In the event that Iran does launch a retaliatory military strike against the US, what do the Government believe our article 5 obligations would be with regards to military support for the US, and how would that change if the location of the attack were in the region?

[Mr Lammy]

I refer the hon. Gentleman to paragraph 2.13 of the ministerial code.

UK-Ukraine 100-year Partnership

Debate between David Lammy and Ben Obese-Jecty

Monday 20th January 2025 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lammy]

The Ukrainians recognise our huge strengths in higher education and, as result, innovation, which my hon. Friend will that referenced in the eventual treaty. Prior to the war, there was immense expertise in tech and IT in Ukraine. The innovations in drone technology are extraordinary and, frankly, are changing the nature of warfare, from which we should benefit. For all those reasons, that is an important pillar, from which we will gain as much as Ukraine will over the coming years.

[Ben Obese-Jecty (Huntingdon) (Con)]

Pillar 2.3 states:

“Throughout the duration of the Declaration, neither Participant will be left alone in the face of an attack or aggression.”

To what extent does that act as a NATO article 5 commitment in lieu of Ukraine joining NATO? Does it, like article 5, facilitate direct UK military action in support of Ukraine should it be attacked again in the future in violation of the UN charter? Are other NATO allies also negotiating similar pacts, and to what extent do they complement this one?

[Mr Lammy]

Unusually, the hon. Gentleman is jumping ahead of himself somewhat. We continue to support Ukraine with every military effort. That is going on now, and in a sense that is the reference he is making. I have indicated an irreversible pathway to NATO, as we agreed back in September. This is not article 5.