Northern Ireland

David Gauke Excerpts

Thursday 5th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[Julian Smith]

I hope to table a motion for the statutory instrument early next week.

[Mr David Gauke (South West Hertfordshire) (Ind)]

It is clear from what my right hon. Friend is saying that if we have a no-deal Brexit and Stormont is not up and running, to protect the rights of Northern Ireland, we need to take powers; to take powers, we need to legislate; and to legislate, the House needs to be sitting. Is it not also clear that if the House does not pass that legislation by the end of October because it has been prorogued or dissolved, the rights of the people of Northern Ireland will be detrimentally affected?

[Julian Smith]

Again, the priority has to be getting Stormont up and running. I have been honest and open to the House about the need for powers, and clearly my right hon. Friend is right that at the very heart of the need for those powers are the rights of citizens in Northern Ireland.

Corporation Tax (Northern Ireland) Bill

David Gauke Excerpts

Tuesday 27th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)]

We have had a helpful and wide-ranging debate on a Bill that will allow the Northern Ireland Assembly to set a different rate of corporation tax from the rest of the United Kingdom, and enable Northern Ireland to encourage genuine investment that will create jobs and growth. It will help rebalance the Northern Ireland economy away from dependence on the public sector, and I welcome the support it has received from all parts of the House. Representatives of six different political parties have spoken in support of it. That mirrors the support received beyond this Chamber—from businesses in Northern Ireland that have long argued for this reform, and we are delighted to have introduced it.

The debate has been relatively lengthy and many contributions were made. I am conscious that there is a further debate to follow, so I am a little constrained by time, but let me see if I can address most of the points that were raised.

I thank the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Bury South (Mr Lewis), and the hon. Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) for their support. I think it fair to say that Labour has been somewhat sceptical about devolution of corporation tax. The shadow Secretary of State challenged my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State on the question of when they expressed opposition to it. I am tempted to quote the right hon. Member for St Helens South and Whiston (Mr Woodward), who said at the 2011 Labour party conference that the proposal to cut corporation tax was “a huge gamble” that

“risks making a bad situation worse.”

He urged the then Secretary of State to

“think twice before he leaps.”

To be fair, such scepticism is consistent with Labour’s general position on corporation tax. Whereas the two parties in this Government have cut corporation tax in this country, and five parties in Northern Ireland want to cut corporation tax there, Labour wants to increase the rate across the UK. Whether it is comfortable positioning itself to the left of Sinn Fein on this matter I am really not sure, but that is where it is.

[Shabana Mahmood]

I hesitate, Madam Deputy Speaker, to stray too far from the terms of the Bill, but the Financial Secretary is well aware that our manifesto commitment is to raise the headline rate of corporation tax from 20% to 21% and to put every single penny of that money towards a cut and then a freeze in business rates, which will primarily benefit small and medium-sized businesses. Will he at least acknowledge that that is a business-friendly measure?

[Mr Gauke]

The sense of direction in increasing corporation tax would be a mistake. I will not detain the House for long on this matter, but I also note that Labour’s pledge is to have the lowest corporation tax rate in the G7, which would allow it to increase corporation tax to 26%. That would be a major reversal of the progress made by this Government. However, I am sure you would like me to return to the issue of Northern Ireland, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Let me add my tribute to those that have made to my right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson). Having worked with him in opposition and in government on this policy, I can testify to the vision, tenacity and infectious enthusiasm he has shown. He demonstrates, as does this Bill, what can be achieved by a Minister with his determination and vision, and he deserves much of the credit for the progress that has been made. He also rightly paid tribute to the current Secretary of State, who has demonstrated great skill in making progress on this matter. He put a lot of the momentum into the process, but it has also required her talents to bring us to this point.

The hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) made an excellent speech about the history of this progress. He and I have had many conversations and meetings on this matter. He described the progress by saying that we would go forward a bit and then back a bit, and that at times it was frustrating. I can tell him that I shared that experience, but he made a good case for the progress we have made. He also made an important point about the Republic of Ireland’s resistance to raising corporation tax at times when it faced great financial difficulties. That point was also made by my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, who described how important it was to the Republic of Ireland to maintain low rates of corporation tax and to grow the private sector.

My hon. Friend made a couple of other points that I wish to address. He mentioned timing and said it would take a couple of years before this measure comes into effect. As has been said by a number of hon. Members, it is important that we set a sense of direction so that businesses can see where things are going in future years, but it takes some time to implement a change of this sort. Therefore, the 2017 timetable is as fast as is realistic. He also asked whether we should have the Committee stage on the Floor of the House or upstairs. That is largely a matter for the usual channels, but given that we want to make progress as quickly as possible and that a limited amount of time is left in this Parliament, it is right that we take every opportunity to make progress on this as quickly as we can. The fastest and easiest way of doing that is by holding the Committee stage, which will involve detailed scrutiny of some 87 pages of legislation, upstairs.

The hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) rightly made the point, as did a number of other hon. Members, that other issues will drive growth and this measure should not been seen as a silver bullet. He also said we should not create a new twilight zone where businesses and individuals can play the tax system to their benefit, and I will deal with that briefly in a moment. My hon. Friend the Member for Redcar (Ian Swales) made similar points about tax avoidance and also mentioned the impact of this measure on the UK more widely, and I will deal with that in a moment also.

The hon. Member for Belfast East (Naomi Long) made an excellent speech. A couple of points worth highlighting are the need for Northern Ireland to get its financial house in order and to have sustainable public finances, something that is well recognised, and the fact that political stability is important for providing the environment for economic growth in Northern Ireland. I agree with her on that.

My hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) brought his technical expertise to this debate. He raised a number of points that are probably best addressed in Committee. I do not know whether he was making an application to serve on that Committee, but he certainly raised a number of important points.

The hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) talked about grasping the opportunity to help economic growth in Northern Ireland. The hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) made a similar point. She also highlighted other matters, and talked about how to help the Northern Ireland economy. She asked about our engagement with the Northern Ireland Executive. I can assure her that, over the course of many years, there has been significant engagement, that the Northern Ireland Executive have been involved in discussions on the joint ministerial working group and the subsequent design process, and that we have kept the Northern Ireland Executive informed of progress in the design of legislation and taken their views into account when agreeing the final design. There have also been regular discussions at official level between the Executive, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and the Treasury. I am grateful to the Executive for their co-operative approach at ministerial and official level, and that engagement is continuing.

To conclude the debate, the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) also highlighted additional challenges that Northern Ireland faces, including improving the planning system and ensuring that the skills base and education system is working for Northern Ireland, and all of those were good points.

Let me pick up on a few of the issues to emerge from the debate. The most significant point, which was raised on a number of occasions, was ensuring that this is about real economic activity. This is not about profit shifting or a brass plate. I can assure the House that we very much share that view. This is not about finding a way in which companies can reduce their tax base through contrived or artificial arrangements, but about encouraging jobs and growth in Northern Ireland. We will ensure that HMRC has the capacity to deal with these matters. For example, when dealing with transfer pricing matters, HMRC will have a risk-based approach to ensure that the system works, so that we do not see the type of activity that so concerns Members.

[Mark Durkan]

On the subject of HMRC capacity, I know the Minister is talking mainly about its powers and where it is sited, but has any thought been given to the regional capacity that it will need in relation to these new discrete considerations that will apply in Northern Ireland, because that might lead to a revision of HMRC’s projection for its staff needs in Northern Ireland?

[Mr Gauke]

The important issue here—it was also a point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Redcar—is ensuring that there is the capacity to deal with the transfer pricing issues. Transfer pricing is a highly skilled and specialised discipline within HMRC. It is important that the transfer pricing team has the capacity to deal with those matters. That is best done on a centralised basis rather than having people dispersed around the United Kingdom. The hon. Gentleman and I have had many conversations over a number of years on the issue of HMRC’s presence in Northern Ireland. Let me stress that this is a matter of ensuring that we have the right skills, that the customer relationship managers work closely with businesses and that there is a good understanding of how this differential rate will work and be applied.

It is worth pointing out that it will not be possible for companies to set up a brass plate to benefit from a lower rate in Northern Ireland. The rules require a permanent physical presence in Northern Ireland and, more fundamentally, a calculation of Northern Ireland’s trading profits based on the profits that the Northern Ireland activity would have made as a stand-alone entity. That separate enterprise approach coupled with the exclusion of investment profits from the Northern Ireland regime should ensure that common international tax avoidance arrangements cannot be replicated within the Northern Ireland regime. As a Government we have a proud record of progressing the international debate on the issue, and we are not going to allow an opportunity for abuse in our system.

On the block grant adjustment, the Stormont House agreement sets out that the block grant will be reduced to reflect the tax revenues forgone by the UK Government as a result of devolving tax powers. We will continue to work with the Northern Ireland Executive on the detailed mechanics to ensure that the Northern Ireland block grant is reduced appropriately. The reduction will depend on the rate that is set by the Northern Ireland Executive. To answer a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Redcar, there are no particular restrictions on that. Conceivably, it could be a 0% rate, but that would have to be paid for and it would be expensive. An estimate of the cost to the Northern Ireland Executive of a 12.5% rate is in the region of £300 million by 2019-20, which is when the steady state will be in place. That will depend on a number of factors, not least the growth of the economy.

I am conscious of time and the fact that there is another debate to be had, but let me conclude by saying that there is a strong case for action in this area. The Northern Ireland economy is significantly more dependent on the public sector than the rest of the UK, with about 30% of workers employed there, compared with about 20% in the rest of the UK. The Northern Ireland corporation tax rate of 21% has to compete with the rate in the Republic of Ireland of 12.5%. If corporation tax is lowered in Northern Ireland, about 34,000 businesses in Northern Ireland stand to benefit, including 26,500 small and medium-sized enterprises.

The Northern Ireland Executive will have greater power to rebalance the economy towards a stronger private sector, boosting employment and growth. Northern Ireland will attract more investment and become more competitive, boosting the entire UK economy and the standard of living of people across Northern Ireland. The Bill is conditional on the Northern Ireland Executive continuing to work to balance Northern Ireland’s budget to ensure that people across the UK can benefit from the stronger economy and fairer society that this Government have been building. I hope that the House will give the Bill a Second Reading, and that we have the support of the whole House.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a second time.

Corporation Tax (Northern Ireland) Bill (Programme)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),

That the following provisions shall apply to the Corporation Tax (Northern Ireland) Bill:

Committal

(1) The Bill shall be committed to a Public Bill Committee.

Proceedings in Public Bill Committee

(2) Proceedings in the Public Bill Committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion on Thursday 12 February 2015.

(3) The Public Bill Committee shall have leave to sit twice on the first day on which it meets.

Consideration and Third Reading

(4) Proceedings on Consideration shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour before the moment of interruption on the day on which those proceedings are commenced.

(5) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the moment of interruption on that day.

(6) Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading.

Other proceedings

(7) Any other proceedings on the Bill (including any proceedings on consideration of any message from the Lords) may be programmed. —(Dr Thérèse Coffey.)

Question agreed to.

Corporation Tax (Northern Ireland) Bill (Ways and Means)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 52(1)(a)),

That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Corporation Tax (Northern Ireland) Bill, it is expedient to authorise:

(1) any increase in charges to corporation tax by virtue of a resolution made by the Northern Ireland Assembly setting the Northern Ireland rate of corporation tax, and

(2) any increase in charges to corporation tax by virtue of the Act. —(Dr Thérèse Coffey.)

Question agreed to.