Debate on the Address

Debate between David Davis and Sammy Wilson

Tuesday 10th May 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con)]

It is a privilege to follow the hon. Member for Rochdale (Tony Lloyd), as I have done many times over the years. While I may not always agree with him, he always speaks with level-headed common sense, and that is a privilege for the House.

The proverb tells us that the good die young, and in this House that could not be more true than it has been this year; three of our most valued Members—David Amess, James Brokenshire and Jack Dromey—left us before their time. David Amess was a particularly close friend of mine, so it is a privilege to speak after his successor, my hon. Friend the Member for Southend West (Anna Firth), who gave a storming maiden speech. When she was telling her Mackintosh joke, I was reminded of a maiden speech made about 30 years ago by an Opposition Member. A rather striking redheaded Scot Nat made an absolutely stonking maiden speech, and John Smith, I think it was, jumped up and said, “That was no maiden speech; that was a brazen hussy of a speech.” The speech that my hon. Friend the Member for Southend gave was too elegant for that to be said about it, but I will say this, and it is perhaps the greatest compliment I can give her: David would have been proud of her.

There is a great deal to welcome in the 38 Bills in this Queen’s Speech. Those who have been pooh-poohing them perhaps ought to wait until they see the details. There is mention of tackling economic crime; embracing the freedoms that Brexit offers, though that is too late; reforming and securing our energy supply; and resolving the Northern Ireland legacy issues. These are all massively important issues, and there are many others like them that the Government are addressing, and on which they should have our undying support.

There are some issues—those on the Front Bench would be disappointed if I did not say this—that perhaps require more careful handling. For example, the Online Safety Bill is very necessary and well-intentioned, but it is so complex that it will have dozens of unintended consequences, including, possibly, that of curbing free speech. We have to make sure that we give that enough time to be looked at carefully. Similarly, the national security Bill is undoubtedly necessary, but we will have to handle it carefully because it replaces the Official Secrets Act, and while it protects the state from its enemies, we must make sure that it does not curb the rights of honourable whistleblowers.

A Queen’s Speech is built on sand if it is not underpinned by strong economic foundations. Indeed, this Queen’s Speech says that the Government

“will drive economic growth to improve living standards and fund sustainable investment in public services”,

but taxes today are too high, so we need to get some fundamentals right. High taxes do not deliver growth; they stifle it. Low taxes deliver investment and higher productivity, and therefore growth, and they are the pre-emptive answer to stagflation, which is the biggest threat on our horizon in the coming year.

I rather agree with the points from some on the Opposition Benches about the need for an emergency Budget, but I do not agree with the argument for windfall taxes, which would be self-defeating. There is certainly a need to act quickly. The Prime Minister talked about deploying our “fiscal firepower”, but we need to do that now, when our constituents need it, not after they have suffered the increases in prices that they face, and the further increases that they will face in the latter part of the year. This is a good Queen’s Speech.

[Sammy Wilson]

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that having lower taxes puts money into people’s pockets—money that they can spend on things that they find it difficult to afford at present. Is he worried that the decision to use this firepower in a couple of years’ time, when we are coming up to an election, rather than using it to deal with the issues that are hurting people badly now, will be seen as cynical?

[Mr Davis]

The right hon. Gentleman is exactly right. If we increase national insurance for a large part of the population, and so increase their suffering and their inability to eat and to heat their house at the same time, but drop income tax one year before an election, I am afraid that would be seen in the working men’s clubs of Yorkshire as a cynical deployment of state power. I suspect it would be the same in Belfast and the rest of Northern Ireland, where, as we have heard already, the problem is even bigger than in the rest of the United Kingdom. He is right, and that is why we should give the people their money back now. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood)—

Finance Bill

Debate between David Davis and Sammy Wilson

Report stage & 3rd reading
Monday 24th May 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

The right hon. Gentleman is right. The first phase of IR35 was about contractors for Government, so the whole wild west that I have described was actually created for public services.

To come back to my point about illegitimate contractors forcing the legitimate ones out of business, it is quite understandable that ordinary contractors will be attracted to a scheme that seems to offer them the best terms, yet they will be unaware that in doing so they risk unwittingly entering unintentional tax avoidance schemes. That is one of the problems that troubles me most.

These contractors, remember, are not fat cats, big bankers or city slickers. They are hard-working, decent people such as locum nurses and supply teachers—contractors whose work is vital. To take up the right hon. Gentleman’s point, the FT reported that NHS locum workers returning during the height of the pandemic were targeted by firms mis-selling these schemes. Ordinary and comparatively low-paid workers do not have the advantage of expensive tax advisers. They cannot be expected to navigate the minefield of extremely complex tax law if we allow these predators to play unfettered within it.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

Does not the situation get even worse once these tax avoidance schemes have been identified and shown to be illegal? It is very often the people who were conned into operating with umbrella companies who are penalised, while the umbrella companies walk away with no investigation and there is no means of holding them to account.

[Mr Davis]

That is entirely right. Indeed, one of the flaws that HMRC exhibits is that although it very often has real-time information on the issues, it acts only much later. That doubles or quadruples the problem for the ordinary person who is effectively a victim of these schemes, who suddenly finds years later that they have vast sums to meet—and, indeed, the shame of being held up as a tax avoider, if not evader.

The Government should take action to clean up this wild west, for example by providing guidance and templates for the preferred model of working. This is not so difficult. Why cannot we lay out a template for ordinary contractors and legitimate umbrella companies that says, “This is how you should do it, and this is what we expect”? Failing that, my amendments give the Government and Parliament three clear and simple options.

Ideally, the Government will take note and enact new clause 31. It would review—it does not require law to do this—the whole operation of umbrella companies and off-payroll working. For me, that is the de minimis position. My preferred option is that the Government should introduce regulation into this problematic sector to clear up some of the most egregious aspects, including mis-selling and malpractice. They should require—this deals with the Companies Act point to some extent, but it is the simplest way of doing it—umbrella companies to meet five strict requirements: they should pay all holiday pay due; maintain all employment rights; ban kickbacks to third parties; end the skimming off of excess profits through sleight-of-hand tactics; and, finally, ensure that the worker himself has no material interest in the umbrella company. That would not deal with the propriety issues of the Companies Act, but it would deal with the main, most socially damaging aspects of the wild west we have now.

Budget Resolutions and Economic Situation

Debate between David Davis and Sammy Wilson

Wednesday 3rd March 2021 Commons Chamber

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

First, may I welcome the Budget, and welcome the reminder that the Chancellor gave at the very end of his speech that this Budget, and indeed the actions taken by the Government over the past year, demonstrate the value of the Union? We can look at the details in the Budget paper: in Northern Ireland, over a quarter of a million people are having their wages paid through the furlough scheme; 200,000 self-employed people are having their income supported as a result of the scheme; £1.5 billion in loans has been made available to businesses in Northern Ireland; and the Northern Ireland Executive have benefited by over £3 billion in Barnett consequentials, which has enabled them to put in place bespoke schemes in Northern Ireland. For anyone listening, this debate serves as a good reminder that being part of the fifth largest economy in the world has economic benefits, and they are economic benefits which cannot be replaced through any other arrangement.

The second thing I want to say is that I welcome many of the measures in the Budget. It is a difficult time for the Chancellor to present a Budget, but I am glad that many of the measures that we as a party had written and spoken to him about have been reflected in the Budget. The hospitality industry, which is very important in Northern Ireland, lobbied heavily for the 5% VAT rate to be maintained, and I am glad to see that it is being maintained, albeit not for the whole year. I represent a rural constituency, and many of my constituents were concerned about the impact that an increase in fuel duty would have on the cost of living, so I am glad to see that duty has again been frozen. Many businesses looking at their overheads wanted to ensure that they would not be subjected to rates again; the business rates relief is important for them.

However, there are many challenges as to how we pay off the debt, and the Chancellor was upfront about that. He made it clear that some painful choices would have to be made. The Budget papers illustrate how painful some of those choices will be. For example, by freezing the thresholds for income tax, over the next five years the amount of money taken from people across the United Kingdom in income tax will go up by 25%. Some of that will be as a result of the 3% increase in employment, but much of it will be through a stealth increase. As thresholds are not moved up, there are inflationary increases on wages, and people pay more.

Like the last speaker, the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis), I am worried about the impact of the corporation tax increases. While the Chancellor has indicated that they will not come in immediately, over the period for which we have figures the corporation tax take will increase by 112%. That will have an impact on investment, although we hope that the allowances that have been granted will ensure that some of the profits will be ploughed back.

[Mr David Davis]

Is it not a fact that when you put up corporation tax like that, it does not deliver the arithmetic outcome: you actually get less back and it suppresses your business as well?

Leaving the EU: Parliamentary Vote

Debate between David Davis and Sammy Wilson

Thursday 26th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

It will be before the deal—that is what I would expect anyway, unless it goes much faster than I expect. That is true not just of that Bill but of most of the other Bills my hon. Friend refers to.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

I think the general public will be bemused at the contrived controversy that has developed here today, because even the most uninformed observer will know we cannot have a vote on an agreement until an agreement has been reached. Does the Secretary of State share my concern that a stand-alone unspecified transitional arrangement, plus the mixed message coming from this House on its willingness to respect the wishes of the people of the United Kingdom, are likely to encourage EU negotiators to delay any agreement, with the consequence that we continue paying money into the EU when we do not need to?

[Mr Davis]

I agree that there is a degree of contrivance in the fuss and noise coming from the Opposition—there is no doubt about that, but that is not new, I guess. As for the ongoing transition or implementation period, the hon. Gentleman is right. That is why I said that if we let the negotiation go into that period, we will be at a disadvantage, because the EU will presumably be receiving money, if that is the arrangement, and will want to spin out the time it does so as much as possible. We have to be practical and sensible if we intend to respect the will of the British people and deliver the best outcome for them.

EU Exit Negotiations

Debate between David Davis and Sammy Wilson

Tuesday 5th September 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

My right hon. and dear Friend, who used to be in my Department not very long ago, knows full well that I have made those points more than once to Michel and other members of the Union negotiating team. This is not within the normal perspective as laid out by article 50, but we have gone along with it simply to get citizens’ rights under way. That is what we have done, but now we are getting to the point at which we will think very hard about what the next stage is.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s paper on Northern Ireland, particularly the assurances to Unionists that the border will not be drawn along the Irish sea, and equally to nationalists that there will be no hard border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic. I especially welcome the fact that those goals are achievable because of the practical measures suggested in the paper. Is he therefore disappointed by the Irish Government’s negative response to his paper, especially since they have so much to lose from an EU punishment beating of the UK? Has he had any assurances from the Irish Government that they will not act on the spiteful advice of Gerry Adams that they should block any agreement between the EU and the UK?

[Mr Davis]

The hon. Gentleman knows that I fight very shy of getting entangled in Irish politics, but I am confident that we can get a non-visible border operational between Northern Ireland and Ireland using the most up-to-date technology. That was one reason why I went to Detroit. It was not so we could replicate what is in Detroit and Buffalo, but so we could use some of the same techniques, such as authorised economic operators, pre-notification and electronic tagging of containers. All those things will make it possible for the border to be as light-touch as it is today.

Article 50

Debate between David Davis and Sammy Wilson

Tuesday 24th January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

My hon. Friend is asking me a question that is way above my pay grade, to say the least, and the person whose pay grade it is has left. The point I would make to my hon. Friend is this. I would hope that every Member of this House saw it as their duty to their constituents to deliver the best outcome. That is precisely what the Government’s strategy is—to deliver the best outcome for Britain in this negotiation.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

I am pleased that the case that was presented to hand a veto to the Northern Ireland Assembly—a blatant attempt to overturn the result of the referendum—has failed. Could the Secretary of State tell us, now that the Northern Ireland Assembly has been collapsed by Sinn Féin, what arrangements there will be to have the issues that concern Northern Ireland raised prior to negotiations and during negotiations?

[Mr Davis]

With respect to the hon. Gentleman’s first point, it is notable that while there was an 8:3 judgment on the rest of the issue, the Court was unanimous on not allowing the Northern Ireland Executive a veto. In terms of maintaining, not so much a relationship but an understanding of the issues that relate to Northern Ireland, last week when we had a Joint Ministerial Committee I wrote to the Northern Ireland Executive to ask them to continue to send Ministers to represent the interests of Northern Ireland. Although the First Minister and Deputy First Minister disappear, as it were, in the interim, Ministers stay in post, just as in any other Administration. Last week, they did turn up, and I will continue to extend an invitation to that end. If that does not work, we will find some other bilateral way to proceed. The hon. Gentleman must take it as read: I view it as near the top of my priorities, if not actually my top priority, to preserve the situation in Northern Ireland, to preserve the border in its current state without hardening it, and to preserve the interests of the Northern Irish people.

New Partnership with the EU

Debate between David Davis and Sammy Wilson

Tuesday 17th January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

Broadly, yes. My hon. Friend is the Member for South Cambridgeshire. I was in Cambridge only just before Christmas to speak to a number of high-tech organisations—one of which was ARM, but a number of others as well, including some pharmaceutical ones—with the direct intention of informing exactly how we approach some of these complex matters in the negotiation.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

The Government took a wise decision to inform our EU partners that in the event of intransigence during our negotiations to establish a new partnership, we would not take it lying down and would use the fiscal and legislative levers at our disposal to ensure that Britain’s economic case was represented properly. Is the Secretary of State surprised at the casual way in which the Opposition have dismissed the use of these levers on the basis that it might start a trade war? Does he not accept that the sure way of getting intransigence from the EU is to throw away this economic deterrent that we have at our disposal?

[Mr Davis]

I am mildly disappointed but not surprised. What is perhaps surprising is that whenever we hear somebody threaten some sort of punishment sanction, the Opposition never say a word. This is something in the national interest, and every single member of our nation stands to gain by that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David Davis and Sammy Wilson

Thursday 1st December 2016 Commons Chamber

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

The Prime Minister, in an attempt to set the right tone for negotiations, has offered an early agreement on the status of EU nationals living in the UK. Is the Secretary of State disappointed that, in a petulant post-referendum response from the EU Commission, this offer has been refused, and will he assure us that, should this hard line continue, there will be no lack of resolve on the Government’s part to detach us from the chains of the EU?

[Mr David Davis]

The Government will not be so easily put off, although the hon. Gentleman is quite right. It would have been better if we had got a better response from the EU—but I will not say anything rude about those involved. One of the interesting disciplines of the next two years is that I will be polite to everybody.

Next Steps in Leaving the European Union

Debate between David Davis and Sammy Wilson

Monday 10th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

Had the Chairman of the Treasury Committee read my evidence to the Lords Select Committee, he would have seen that I gave an undertaking that this House and the other House would be at least as well informed as democratic institutions on the continent, including the European Parliament. That has never been done before, but it will be done now.

[Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s assurance that he will consult the leaders of devolved Administrations, and I assure him that the leader of our party will work with him to ensure successful negotiations for our exit from the European Union. Will he recognise, however, that the rhetoric that we have heard today about parliamentary scrutiny is really designed to do one of two things—either to overturn the referendum result, or to undermine the negotiating position that the Government would take by continual squabbling in the Chamber about the bottom line? Does he agree that the vast majority of people in the United Kingdom now want the Government to go out and ensure that we have control of our borders, the ability to spend our own money, and the ability to make our own laws?

[Mr Davis]

The hon. Gentleman is exactly right. The words that he used were not “52%”, but “the vast majority”. The vast majority of the country wants us to get on with this and to make a success of it, and that is what we will do.

Let me also say to the hon. Gentleman that one of the areas receiving the most attention at the moment is Northern Ireland. We do have issues to resolve on the border, and we will resolve them. We will not return to the old borders—the border style of old. We will maintain the common travel area. Indeed, we will maintain all the benefits that we had in Northern Ireland before we entered the European Union.

Budget Resolutions and Economic Situation

Debate between David Davis and Sammy Wilson

Wednesday 20th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

Exactly.

The simple truth is that this is a blinding glimpse of the obvious in many respects. But this is not impossible to put right. Other countries managed to get back to a 3% growth rate, or thereabouts, so it can be done.

[Sammy Wilson]

The right hon. Gentleman seems to be saying that anyone who talks about putting money into the infrastructure and the economy is a Keynesian. Would he not accept that the monetarist argument is that the supply side of the economy is very important, and to stimulate the supply side of the economy often the Government need to spend money on capital injections to increase the capacity of the economy to produce more goods? It is not a Keynesian view, it is a monetarist view, with which I would have thought he identified.

[Mr Davis]

I will come back to the detail in a minute, but the point I am making—it is a serious point—is that we can do what Keynes said and pay someone to dig a hole and then pay someone else to fill it in, and that creates employment. So long as we avoid that and talk about the real value, we are on the same side. I will come back to the real value issue in a moment.

The problem with actions to promote competitiveness is that they are not always politically popular. Very often, they are politically unpopular, and I will elaborate on that in a second. The other element about growth—everyone in the Chamber today agrees that growth is necessary—is that it is also important to the deficit reduction policy. In effect, if 1% is taken off the growth rate, the OBR’s rule of thumb says that within a year or so that adds £10 billion to the deficit every year thereafter—not once, but every year thereafter. So growth is fundamental to the central fiscal policy as well. While we are talking about growth, we have had much talk about double and triple-dip recessions, but judging by the employment numbers, we have not had real recessions; we have had bouncing around zero to 1% growth, and that will show up when the numbers are corrected, as will be done in a few years.

There are six key elements to ensuring the economy’s competitiveness, and they are all pretty straightforward. I agree with what the Government are doing on some of them, but on others I think that they should go further. The first is straightforward: the Chancellor is absolutely right not to hesitate or flinch in the deficit reduction programme. That is absolutely essential. Canada, Germany and Sweden, which are all successful examples—Japan is not—managed their deficit reduction unflinchingly, and in all of them it delivered 3% plus rates of growth within a few years. Indeed, Canada had the fastest growing economy in the G8 when it carried through. The simple fact is that, even with the deficit reduction programme, we will be £600 billion more indebted at the end of this Parliament than we were at the beginning, and that is a devil of a burden for any country to carry. Clearly we cannot hesitate on deficit reduction.

The second key element is the one on which I and my right hon. Friends on the Treasury Bench might have a difference of view. One of the critical drivers of competitiveness is tax policy. I wholeheartedly welcome the actions announced today on corporation tax and national insurance, although I would like them to go further. The simple truth is that expensive, complex and high levels of tax returns are very damaging to a country’s economic competitiveness. We should be looking hard at the tax categories that are most responsive to lower rates. We have heard today, even from the Labour Benches, about a couple of measures—on beer, I think—that will deliver more money for the Exchequer, not less, so even Labour Members recognise dynamic tax strategy. We certainly want to see lower national insurance contributions for employers. I would like to see the employment allowance scheme that we put together extended considerably. Capital gains tax must come down. At 28%, we are collecting much less money than we would if it was somewhere between 15% and 20%. There is a series of other taxes, including corporation tax, on which action could be taken. Again, the examples to look to are Canada, Sweden and Germany.

The third key element, which we did not hear much about from the Chancellor today—perhaps we have not heard much because we are yet to go through the detail of the Budget—is deregulation. The most successful recovery in Europe in the past decade was Germany’s. The Germans took it upon themselves to dramatically deregulate their employment market for small companies. That is key, because small companies are the biggest employment creator in the economy, bar none. The Germans effectively removed employment law for companies with fewer than 10 employees and created mini-jobs and other mechanisms to reduce the bureaucracy and legislation surrounding employment. That is massively important. It is one very effective way of creating new employment, and it is something we should undertake as dramatically as we can.

Another item that was raised earlier—the hon. Member for East Antrim raised it with respect to Northern Ireland alone—was the question of carbon tax and carbon floors. In the next month or so, the changes that are being introduced will give us a disadvantage of £10 a tonne, and not against China or India, but against Germany, Holland and France. We will see a transfer of heavy industry from this country to Europe. There will now be an exemption for ceramics, but frankly there are many other businesses—they employ about 600,000 people—in the energy-intensive industries. We need to address that. The previous Government were very happy to deliver golden rules of one sort or another. I would like to suggest a rule for us on environmental and energy policy: we should not introduce any environmental policy that is not matched by our European colleagues. That would ensure that we do not do ourselves huge harm.

Let me move on to infrastructure. The hon. Member for East Antrim made a perfectly sensible point about broadband, and I agree with him. What I do not want to see is massive expenditure for its own sake in the expectation or hope that that will simply generate employment by itself. The Japanese experiment demonstrates that that does not work. What we want to see is de-bottlenecking of our railways and road systems and underpinning of things such as broadband. The Government can make some good claims in that area, but we need to do more. That is what will fundamentally allow growth to take off in Britain and get us back to the 3% level of growth.

The last item I want to speak about is bank reform. A number of colleagues, including my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) and my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie), who chairs the Treasury Committee, have talked about bank reform. Bluntly, we have been too slow—[Interruption.] I am out of time—