Loan Charge 2019: Sir Amyas Morse Review

Debate between David Davis and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 19th March 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

I am talking about how we got to that position. I will come on to talk about the financial status of these people, but my hon. Friend is right: these are not rich people.

HMRC, which has claimed that this is clear law, lost the Dextra Accessories Ltd and Sempra Metals Ltd cases in 2002 and 2008 respectively, when the courts specifically rejected the idea that the loans could be subject to income tax. HMRC then lost a case in 2012 and again in 2014, demonstrating that the 2011 legislation had not clarified the law to the satisfaction of the courts. That is a key point—it was not a question of it not being to our satisfaction or our constituents’ satisfaction, but it was not to the satisfaction of the courts. The fact that HMRC lost twice and then won twice tells us that even experienced, highly informed judges spending a great deal of time studying these cases found it a difficult issue to resolve.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

Is not the proof of the pudding in the fact that the 2017 legislation was introduced? The loan charge itself is standing proof that previous legislation was not sufficient to tax the people involved, otherwise that would have been done.

[Mr Davis]

As usual, my right hon. Friend trumps my argument in advance, but I will come back to that in a second.

What that demonstrates—and what my right hon. Friend’s point demonstrates—is a failure of the Treasury and HMRC to write clear and comprehensible legislation. If the judges cannot understand it, what chance is there for ordinary laymen—people who cannot afford to employ an accountant? We are not talking about city slickers or international bankers; we are talking about locum nurses, social workers, careworkers and hospital cleaners.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David Davis and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 3rd May 2018 Commons Chamber

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

11. What progress he has made on negotiations to agree the terms on which the UK will leave the EU.

[The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Mr David Davis)]

Clearly, great minds think alike today, Mr Speaker.

We have made significant progress in negotiating our exit by agreeing on the terms of a time-limited implementation period and locking down entire chapters on the financial settlement and citizens’ rights. Negotiations are ongoing. My officials are in Brussels this week, discussing a number of issues, including issues in the agreement such as Euratom, data and intellectual property rights and the future partnership. They are discussing how we should progress the future economic partnership and how we can progress the negotiations swiftly and in parallel. Northern Ireland—particularly human rights, state aid and, to some extent, agriculture—is also being discussed. Today, in Brussels my officials are discussing the future of the security partnership.

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[Mr Davis]

The Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker), has visited Dundee and is very much across that issue. We have given undertakings in relation to guaranteeing the funding of the universities, but if the hon. Gentleman is interested, he can certainly discuss this with me explicitly, so that we can deal directly with the issue of the universities in his constituency.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

With what level of confidence does the Secretary of State estimate the probability of our leaving the customs union on 31 December 2020?

[Mr Davis]

Will 100% do?

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

Excellent.

[Mr Davis]

Let me make a serious point here. The issue of leaving the customs union plays directly to the issue of how we manage our future export and trade arrangements. Almost 60% of our exports are now going to the rest of the world. That is not surprising because both the International Monetary Fund and the European Commission itself have said that the vast majority of growth in world trade will come from outside the European Union. It is our explicit aim to make the most of that, and that means we have to leave the customs union.

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[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

The amendments passed in the other place on Monday night were those of a wrecking Chamber and not a revising Chamber, were they not?

[Mr David Davis]

No; the House of Lords is a revising Chamber and it does a very important job that I have, in my past, depended on from time to time. I agree, however, that some of the proposals—for example, to put timetables into the negotiating arrangements, at which point control is taken away from the Government—would be a gift to the negotiators on the other side.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David Davis and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 15th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Mr David Davis)]

Before I answer, may I take this opportunity to express my condolences to the family of Warren Hawksley, an erstwhile colleague of ours? He was a Maastricht rebel and a great friend of mine; he was very highly principled and very energetic—sometimes too energetic—in pursuit of his views, but, as I say, I express my condolences to his family.

Our immediate goal is to agree a strictly time-limited implementation period by the March European Council next week. This is crucial to helping us build a bridge from where we are to where we want to be on our exit. We have also been working hard to codify the joint report into legal text. We are confident that both of these aims are within reach. Finally, the March European Council is expected to issue the negotiating guidelines to the Commission to negotiate the future partnership. We are seeking to ensure that those guidelines are as broad and open as possible to allow the most constructive negotiation to deliver the close relationship we are aiming for.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

It could be the making of us, couldn’t it?

[Mr Davis]

I could be just as pithy as my right hon. Friend and say yes.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David Davis and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 1st February 2018 Commons Chamber

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

13. What factors the Government plan to take into account in determining their position on the length of the transition period in negotiations for the UK to leave the EU.

[The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Mr David Davis)]

As I have said before, the duration of the implementation period should be in the region of two years, and the Commission’s position indicates a period of similar length: so far it has talked about 21 months. The aim on both sides is to give individuals, businesses and Governments time to plan and initiate the changes that must be made to allow a smooth and orderly transition, and to secure the best possible outcome for the United Kingdom.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

Could it be shorter?

[Mr Davis]

If I simply accept the European Commission proposal, then yes.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David Davis and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 14th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

The timetable on that will be decided within the framework that is being discussed now between the First Secretary of State and Mr Mike Russell.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

4. What recent progress he has made in negotiations with the European Commission; and if he will make a statement.

[Luke Hall (Thornbury and Yate) (Con)]

15. What progress the Government are making on entering into trade talks with the EU.

[The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union (Mr David Davis)]

Last week, we took an important step in the negotiations. As the Prime Minister confirmed, on the morning of Friday 8 December, the Government and the European Commission published a joint report on progress during the first phase of the negotiations. On the basis of this report, and following discussions last week, President Juncker is recommending to the European Council that sufficient progress has been made to move on to the next stage and begin talks on the future relationship between the United Kingdom and the European Union. There is much work still to do, but I have no doubt that we are on the right path to securing the ambitious future relationship that we seek with the European Union.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

Essential to our ambition for an excellent deal is preparation for no deal, is it not?

[Mr Davis]

That is one perspective. I will say one thing about no deal: it has become massively less probable after the decisions of last Friday. That is a good thing, because the best deal is a non-tariff, barrier-free arrangement with the European Union. However, my right hon. Friend is quite right that we continue to prepare for all contingencies and will continue to do so until we are certain that we have a good free trade deal with the EU.

EU Exit Negotiations

Debate between David Davis and Desmond Swayne

Tuesday 5th December 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

If the hon. Lady will forgive a factual correction, people certainly did. The Prime Minister at the time did so, as did the Chancellor at the time and, I think, the leaders of the leave and remain campaigns. I suggest that the hon. Lady looks at the records of “The Andrew Marr Show”, on which they all said that.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

May we return to the Prime Minister’s original intention that there would be no running commentary? This discussion is driving the Opposition into a state of apoplexy when strategic patience is required.

[Mr Davis]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his inducement to my patience.

EU Exit Negotiations

Debate between David Davis and Desmond Swayne

Monday 13th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

The hon. and learned Lady makes the mistake that, I am afraid, many metropolitan media commentators make, which is to assume that everything they are told in Brussels is the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

If the Secretary of State were trying to sell me a car and I assured him that I was determined not to leave the showroom without buying one, does he imagine that that would strengthen my negotiating hand?

[Mr Davis]

My right hon. Friend is quite right. It is a foolish proposition that is only deployed by the Opposition.

Leaving the EU: Parliamentary Vote

Debate between David Davis and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 26th October 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

No, I do not agree with the right hon. Gentleman on that. His description of events is also wrong. It is one thing to give an undertaking, which is binding, and another to say that these are the probabilities and the difficulties that we face together, which is what I said yesterday. I treated the Exiting the EU Committee chaired by the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) with absolute respect in outlining what had happened previously—not what we expect, not what we intend, not what the Union intends, but what had happened previously and the risks that we have to take on board. We intend to meet all our undertakings, and I do not take it very well that the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) suggests that we will not.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

How can we approve an agreement before we have an agreement?

[Mr Davis]

My right hon. Friend makes a very good point; we cannot. That is why the House will be given the agreement to approve as soon as possible at the draft stage, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones) has previously made clear at this Dispatch Box.

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[Mr Davis]

I would have thought that would have been self-evident. What we intend, however, is that the House will have put to it by the Government the deal that we negotiate, which will be the best deal we can obtain for this country, respecting the decision of 17.5 million people. In other words, it will bring back control to this House; it will being back control to this country; it will deal with the borders issue; it will deal with money; it will deal with the future relationship. All that will be put to the House and the House will decide whether it approves of that or not.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

On a very germane point of order, Mr Speaker.

EU Exit Negotiations

Debate between David Davis and Desmond Swayne

Tuesday 5th September 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

Every time this hoary old argument is brought up by Opposition Members I say the same thing to them: I make no apologies for being ambitious on behalf of our country.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

Are the negotiations any more convivial than the press conferences that follow them, which serve only as a powerful corrective to any illusion that we ought possibly to have remained part of that institution?

[Mr Davis]

All my meetings with everybody are always convivial.

Legislating for UK Withdrawal from the EU

Debate between David Davis and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 30th March 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

I am happy to see him, but not at half-past 2.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

That UK judges will be less creative is an open question. The notion of incorporating EU regulation, and indeed case law, gives me the collywobbles, but I assure my right hon. Friend of my support in the Division Lobby because he has bigger fish to fry.

[Mr Davis]

As the White Paper says, we made a very explicit decision that we would aim to make this a Supreme Court-level precedent—to reduce the number of courts that can deal with this to just the Supreme Court itself. The Supreme Court is fairly careful about changing its own precedent; indeed, it does so relatively rarely. We expect that to continue to be the case, but anything it does this House can change.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David Davis and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 9th March 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

My right hon. Friend points exactly at the incredible inconsistency at the heart of the Scottish National party: it believes that it is fine to be ruled from Brussels, but not to be ruled from anywhere else.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

Given the huge identity of mutual interests that Scotland shares with the rest of the United Kingdom, will not a good deal for the United Kingdom shower all sorts of benefits that can be devolved on Scotland?

[Mr Davis]

My right hon. Friend highlights an important point: what matters in this negotiation is the outcome, not the mechanism. The Scottish Government have laid a great deal of emphasis on their own preferred policy of separate membership of the single market, but the simple truth is that what we want is a good outcome in terms of access to the single market for everybody in the United Kingdom, and that will achieve exactly the same aim in a different way.

Exiting the EU: New Partnership

Debate between David Davis and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 2nd February 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

As it stands—as far as I can see, having gone through this quite carefully—once we are outside the EU, the question of whether we automatically cease to be a member of the EEA becomes a legal empty vessel. We will look at that. If we do propose to withdraw from the EEA, we will come back and tell the House.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

When European subjects have come to my surgery to talk about their rights, they have left in agreement that those rights must go hand in hand with the rights of UK subjects living in their own country. I hope the Secretary of State has got the message.

[Mr Davis]

I have got the message and, incidentally, so have the leaders of most of the countries with the most people here. They also understand that we have to protect the rights of British people at the very same time as we protect the rights of their citizens. There is no question that it is not going to happen. The question is when it will happen, and we are trying to do it as quickly as possible.

Article 50

Debate between David Davis and Desmond Swayne

Tuesday 24th January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

The hon. Lady talks about certainty. A two-year negotiation is going to take place, and there is nothing we can or should do to collapse that. That means that there is a limit to the extent to which we can introduce certainty. By the way, I had not mentioned it until then in this discussion. There will be debate after debate. On article 50, there will be debate on the policy. On the great repeal Bill, there will be debate on the policy. In several subsequent pieces of primary legislation, there will be debate on the policy. There will be no shortage of debate or votes.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

Any obligation placed on the Government’s negotiating position during the passage of the Bill may subsequently be subject to judicial review, with consequent delay. I hope that my right hon. Friend will judge the intentions that have been announced to amend the Bill in that light.

[Mr Davis]

As my right hon. Friend knows, I view everybody with great charity and generosity, and I will continue to do so.

New Partnership with the EU

Debate between David Davis and Desmond Swayne

Tuesday 17th January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

If the right hon. Gentleman is not careful, I shall invite him to jump on the M62 and come to visit me at my home in Yorkshire—that right-wing bastion in the north of England. What I would say to him is this: as he might imagine, I am acutely conscious of the needs of the north, and what I am intending to do—I had not intended to announce it today, but I will, since he has asked—after the mayoral elections is to get all the mayors of the north to come and have a meeting in York to talk about precisely that.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

It is a magnificent plan, but before the Secretary of State negotiates it, may I urge on him enormous patience, because our partners will first want to discuss the money —the division of the assets and liabilities?

[Mr Davis]

I almost reiterate the answer I gave to the previous question, which is that I am from Yorkshire, and we are known to be just like the Scots but a lot less generous.

Article 50

Debate between David Davis and Desmond Swayne

Monday 7th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

The ruling of the Court is simply a judgment, no more, no less, and I do not see it in any political context.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

Will the Secretary of State celebrate the fact that parliamentary sovereignty is now embraced even by those who campaigned to leave it in Brussels?

[Mr Davis]

My right hon. Friend makes a point that I may agree with but dare not make myself.

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[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

Three quarters of my constituents and the majority of this country have said that they want to exit. I agree that we must get on with it—unequivocally, for the benefit of the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies). Why, however, are we waiting for a decision that may well go against the Government? By all means let the Secretary of State pursue the case in court if he must, but let him bring a Bill to the House and let us vote on it. Let us vote to trigger article 50 at the right time, as the Government have set out, and let us pursue exit from the European Union. Why does he not just do it?

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

Answer!

[Mr Davis]

I am going to. First, because the triggering of article 50 should be done only when the policy work is complete, and it is not yet complete. Secondly, because the judicial timetable still allows us to meet the date of 30 March, which is the date that we are going to hit.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David Davis and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 20th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

I have no trouble keeping a straight face when dealing with the Opposition. I am afraid that, from time to time, they do things that are seriously not in the country’s interests. Let me quote a rather more authoritative source than the Financial Times. The European Commission has guidelines on how it handles negotiations and what it puts in the public domain beforehand. It states:

“The negotiations and their texts are not themselves public. This is entirely normal for trade negotiations, not just those involving the EU. There are several reasons for this. A certain level of confidentiality is necessary to protect EU interests and to keep chances for a satisfactory outcome high. When entering into a game, no-one starts by revealing his entire strategy to his counterpart from the outset: this is also the case for the EU.”

The Opposition are trying to put us in a disadvantaged position with the European Union, and that is not in the national interest.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

T3. Are opportunities being identified for British business that will arise from our departure?

Next Steps in Leaving the European Union

Debate between David Davis and Desmond Swayne

Monday 10th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Davis]

As always, the right hon. Gentleman has asked a serious question, and I thank him for it. My job is to bring back control of these issues to the United Kingdom, which can then exercise that control in the way that Parliament and the Government see fit. What they negotiate thereafter is not a matter for me to speculate on, and I certainly would not offer an opinion on what is or is not a good negotiating hand at this point in time. However, I hear what he says.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

I satisfied my appetite for voting on this question on 23 June, but like my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), I want some influence over the process. However, if influence has to be measured by holding a Division, as Labour Members appear to believe, they might be reminded that they get a Supply day every week.

[Mr Davis]

My right hon. Friend will of course always influence decisions in this House.