Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Danny Kruger and Stephen Kinnock

Committee stage
Wednesday 29th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Stephen Kinnock]

Thank you very much for that very comprehensive answer. Is there anything that our other guests would like to add?

Dr Mewett: As I was on the very first implementation taskforce, running blind, I probably could not add much more, except to say that it can be done. One has to focus on the readiness of practitioners, the readiness of health services, the readiness of the population and a whole range of other issues, including the pharmacy service. We have a state-wide care navigator service, which assists patients and doctors in the space. We had to set up a lot of services, and that gave us the time to do so. It was very successful and very challenging, but fortunately we did not have covid in our way.

[Danny Kruger (East Wiltshire) (Con)]

Q I am very grateful for your evidence; it is really useful. I want to state, for the record and for information, that we have before us today three professionals from Australia, all of whom support the laws in that country, and that we heard yesterday from two American doctors, who were also supportive of assisted suicide laws, even though in both countries there are many doctors who oppose what is happening. I regret that we are not hearing evidence from them, but it is very helpful to have your input.

Dr Fellingham, I was interested in your point about the distinction between the Australian model and the model in Canada and elsewhere. You are suggesting that most people who seek assisted death do so for what I think you called “existential reasons”. It is certainly not because of an absence of care, although we do see evidence of that in many countries. Can you expand on why you think it is so important that we have the terminally ill definition in the Bill, rather than recognising pain and suffering as the reason for seeking assisted dying, when I think most of the public who support a change in the law do so because they recognise that many people would naturally want to avoid pain and suffering? Yesterday, we heard from people who said that that is the right reason and that we should write that into the law. Why should we not do that?

Dr Fellingham: That is a very good question and I am grateful that you have asked it. We absolutely have to keep at front and centre that pain and suffering are primary drivers for people seeking access to relief of suffering, whether that is at the end of life or in any interaction that they have with healthcare providers. I speak to remind you that these laws apply to terminally ill people, because I feel that that is a lot easier for us to understand and get our heads around, but it does not detract from the fact that suffering can be a feature of non-terminal illnesses. There are people who can suffer terribly for very long periods of time—dementia being a clear example, but one that would be incredibly challenging to legislate for at this early stage.

What is interesting about the parallels you draw between pain and suffering is that it is a quite common conception that pain is suffering and suffering is pain, and that people seek access to relief of suffering at the end of life because it is the physical symptoms that are the most debilitating. Of course, the physical symptoms can be horrendous—pain, nausea, vomiting, anorexia; there are a multitude—but they are symptoms that we tend to be really quite good at treating. We have a whole range of medications in our palliative care spectrum that are very good at treating those physical symptoms, so it is quite rare that people prioritise those when thinking about this.

But suffering is subjective and it is context-dependent. What suffering is to me might be completely different from what it is to you, even if we are suffering from what looks to be, from the outside, the same disease. Suffering and distress—the thing that makes us human: the existential overlay of our own interaction with the world and how that is impacted by our disease process—is an incredibly personal journey and one that is extremely challenging to palliate, and it is very, very distressing for patients, their families and their practitioners if we cannot support people who are suffering at the end of life. Does that answer your question?

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Third sitting)

Debate between Danny Kruger and Stephen Kinnock

Committee stage
Tuesday 28th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Stephen Kinnock]

Dr Spielvogel, I do not know whether you have anything new to add to that. If not, that is fine.

Dr Spielvogel: Without repeating anything that Dr Kaan said, I was just going to say that in addition to my assisted dying hat, I am also the programme director for the family medicine residency programme, so my main job is actually training young physicians who are becoming what you would call GPs.

We have instituted curricula as part of our residency programme here to train interested physicians in learning how to do assisted dying. We go through a whole process for that, including lectures, them shadowing me and me shadowing them, listening in on their conversations, giving them pointers and walking them through the steps of the process. They then do this with multiple patients through the course of their residency, so when they graduate, they feel confident in being able to offer this care. As with most medical training, this should be included in that part of the training process. All the other things, such as pathways in continuing medical education, are very important for physicians out there in practice who want to start doing this, but really getting this into medical training at its roots is vital for normalising the practice.

Speaking of which, something else I have heard a lot is that this might be distressing to physicians, or that physicians would not want to offer this care. I would like to say that 80% of our residents on our programme opt to receive this training. When we did a study on this of graduates from our programme who were continuing to offer assisted dying, 70% of the surveyed residents said that their assisted dying work was more rewarding to them than the rest of their primary care work—70% said that it was more rewarding.

I want to come back to the notion that physicians would feel burdened or that this would be some sort of psychological negative to physicians practising it, because it is actually quite rewarding work. It has led me to be a better physician to all my patients because it has helped me with having these difficult end-of-life conversations with them. That was a bit of a twofer, sorry—I added that on there.

[Danny Kruger]

Q I have four very quick questions. I would be grateful if you could try to answer them quickly, because we have to let everybody else in before the end of the session. Dr Spielvogel, I was struck by you saying that nine out of 10 patients to whom you have suggested this option were not aware of it. How many people who did not know about it before and to whom you might have suggested assisted dying as an option do you think have taken it up? How many people do you think benefited from you telling them about the option?

Dr Spielvogel: A lot. I have actually been quite surprised. Everybody is different. This is the whole point: different people have different goals, objectives and values. I have mentioned it to people who say, “No, I would never do that,” and I never bring it up to them again.

Hospice and Palliative Care

Debate between Danny Kruger and Stephen Kinnock

Monday 13th January 2025 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Care (Stephen Kinnock)]

I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Wimbledon (Mr Kohler) for securing the debate and making such a powerful and thoughtful opening speech. I thank hon. Members from across the House—there are too many to list. It would be impossible to capture the richness of the contributions made. Something like 28 Back-Bench Members made speeches—I am sure Madam Deputy Speaker will correct me if my numbers are not quite right. It was an excellent debate, and I thank everybody for their contribution. I thank all those who work or volunteer in the hospice and palliative care sector for the deeply compassionate care and support that they provide to patients, families and loved ones when they need it most.

This Government are committed to building a society in which every person receives high-quality, compassionate care, from diagnosis through to the end of life. We will shift more care out of hospitals and into the community, to ensure that patients and their families receive personalised care in the most appropriate setting. Palliative and end of life care services, including hospices, will have a vital role to play in that shift. The reality is that we have a mountain to climb. Our health and care services are on their knees, but this Government will strain every sinew to build them, and to create a health and care system that is once again fit for the future.

In England, integrated care boards are responsible for the commissioning of palliative and end of life care services to meet the needs of their local population. To support ICBs in that duty, NHS England has published statutory guidance and service specifications. While the majority of palliative and end of life care is provided by NHS staff and services, we recognise the vital part that voluntary sector organisations, including hospices, play in providing support to people at end of life, as well as to their loved ones.

Most hospices are charitable, independent organisations that receive some statutory funding for providing NHS services. The amount of funding each charitable hospice receives varies both within and between ICB areas. The variation is dependent on demand in the area, and on the totality and type of palliative and end of life care provision from NHS and non-NHS services, including charitable hospices, within each ICB footprint.

We understand the financial pressures that hospices have been facing, which is why last month I was truly proud that this Government announced the biggest investment in hospices in England in a generation. It will ensure that hospices in England can continue to deliver the highest-quality care possible for patients and their families and loved ones.

[Danny Kruger]

I also welcome that, and congratulate the Minister on getting that money out of the Treasury, but will he acknowledge that there is a difference between capital and revenue? Hospices urgently need support for their day-to-day running costs, not just more money to support the capital. They also need capital support, but that is less crucial.

[Stephen Kinnock]

I take the hon. Gentleman’s point, but hospices face a range of pressures. The capital expenditure injection that we have provided will help them in the round. Clearly, anything that helps a hospice with its budget in the round, be it capital or revenue, will help the hospice.

We are supporting the hospice sector through a £100 million capital funding boost for adult and children’s hospices, to ensure that they have the best physical environment for care. There is also £26 million in revenue funding to support children and young people’s hospices. The £100 million in capital funding will deliver much-needed improvements—from refurbishments to overhauling IT systems and better facilities for patients and visitors—during the remainder of 2024-25 and throughout 2025-26. The investment will help hospices to improve their buildings, equipment and accommodation, so that patients continue to receive the best care possible.

Hospices for children and young people will receive a further £26 million in revenue funding for ’25-26 through what was known until recently as the children’s hospice grant. That investment demonstrates the Government’s recognition of the importance of integrating services to improve the treatment that patients receive. Furthermore, through our plans for neighbourhood health centres, we will drive the shift of care from hospitals to the community, which will bring together palliative care services, including hospices and community care services, so that people have the best access to treatment through joined-up services.