Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting)

Debate between Daniel Francis and Jack Abbott

Committee stage
Wednesday 19th March 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Daniel Francis (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mrs Harris. I was also not intending to speak, but I think there are two slightly different issues here. Prior to Second Reading, the Equality and Human Rights Commission produced a briefing paper on some of the issues that have been covered in amendment 500. It also gave oral evidence where it was not happy about some aspects of the Bill and about not having the equality impact assessment.

I hear what my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland Central says, but the briefing that the EHRC produced—although I appreciate what the Equality Act says—did not talk about sexuality, for instance, but it did talk about many of the aspects that are in the amendment of the hon. Member for Richmond Park. In the oral evidence, Dan Scorer from Mencap particularly talked about the experience in covid—for example, someone was five times more likely to have a do not resuscitate order placed on them if they have a learning disability. There is wide evidence of that, as Members, and me in particular, were well aware before we heard that oral evidence.

As a councillor, I remember the experience of ethnic minority communities during that period. I used to represent a council ward with a high west African population. There were clear cultural issues around people’s experiences with the health service during that period, and whether they wanted to take up the vaccine. As the then leader of the opposition on my council, I had regular meetings about the different levels of uptake of health services among different communities.

Beyond new clause 8, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley, which would require the Secretary of State to engage with the Equality and Human Rights Commission, there is a valuable reason for seeking to have that data and for ensuring that the assisted dying commissioner has that data. As I will talk about in debates on subsequent groupings, Dan Scorer from Mencap clearly asked about what happens if things go wrong for people with certain protected characteristics, and at what stage we will review that.

Some of us have legitimate concerns about the characteristics in the amendment tabled by hon. Member for Richmond Park, and about coercion, particularly of women. People have listened long and hard about where I am coming from on this issue, and unlike some other Committee members, I am not opposed to assisted dying per se. I have come to the position, however, that it is vital to try to capture the data on people with learning disabilities or for whom there is a judgment about their level of mental capacity, and that should be in the Bill. I therefore support the amendment.

[Jack Abbott (Ipswich) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Harris. I was not planning to speak on this group either, but the debate speaks to a number of the things that we have talked about in the past few weeks. I add the caveat that all hon. Members present acknowledge that the promoter of the Bill, my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley, has repeatedly made it clear that data collection is essential to what we are proposing. I am also sympathetic to what my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland Central said about not necessarily needing to put everything in the Bill.

Without trying to sound like a broken record, however—I have made this point several times over the past few weeks—it is critical that in certain situations, although there may be some regulations or inferences that exist that may lead to certain outcomes that we on this Committee would all like to see, there is nothing necessarily wrong with putting them explicitly in writing.

Hon. Members have used different stats from different jurisdictions in their own way to lend weight to their arguments, and although many of those stats are relatively consistent in a number of areas, they are not necessarily decisive. I cited a stat yesterday when speaking to an amendment that around 10% of people using the assisted dying route have complications during the final stages, but as I said then, that came from an incredibly small sample size of just over 100 people.

It is therefore critical that, if the Bill is passed and we go down this path, we pursue robust and expansive data gathering in a number of different areas, and I am sure that any Government would look to do so. As long as it does not create any loopholes or unintended consequences, that sort of evidence gathering should be in the Bill because, at the very least, that would provide reassurance that it will happen if the Bill is passed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Daniel Francis]

I will speak to amendment 394 in my name, which provides that codes of practice may be issued on

“the provision of information and support to persons with learning disabilities who are eligible to request assistance to end their own life under this Act, including the role of advocates for such persons”.

I am aware that my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley may speak to amendment 517 and new clause 25, which we will discuss shortly.

I tabled a number of amendments, one of which was accepted, following conversations with Mencap. Dan Scorer from Mencap gave us oral evidence on advocacy support, the discussions and the role of families and said:

“Individuals should be able to choose who supports them with those discussions, whether it is friends or family members or an independent advocate—that would probably be our preference—who is specifically trained to support people with a learning disability who are considering their end-of-life options.”––[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 30 January 2025; c. 273, Q355.]

I will not go on at great length—hon. Members have heard my views on support for people with learning disabilities, and I am conscious that we will come to other amendments on this issue—but I will move my amendment when we get to the relevant stage, in a manner consistent with the approach that I have taken in Committee so far.

[Jack Abbott]

I realise that we could be called away to vote at any moment, but I rise to speak to amendment 534. It is relatively small, and I appreciate that what it seeks may already be covered by regulations, but it would ensure that it is also put in a code of practice.

Anybody seeking an assisted death under the Bill who meets the eligibility criteria should be able to access it. However, there is a risk that the requirement that patients provide two forms of proof of identification could present challenges for certain groups, causing inequalities of access—[Interruption.]

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-second sitting)

Debate between Daniel Francis and Jack Abbott

Committee stage
Wednesday 12th March 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Daniel Francis]

I hear what the hon. Member says. My concern has always been the scenario that I described. If this legislation is passed and we push it forward, one death that occurs where somebody has concerns about the process would be one too many. I said that clearly when we debated clause 3, and that remains my principal concern. It is not necessarily about two sides, but in cases where there are concerns, we need to do everything we can to ensure that that does not happen.

I have a query about the resourcing of the panel. Part of the reason why we ended up here was the queries about the resourcing of the judicial role in the process. We would need to find skilled professionals, especially consultant psychiatrists and social workers, to sit on the panel. If we look at the per capita rates in the Australian and American states that have assisted dying, we can estimate that the number of cases of assisted dying each year in England and Wales would be in the low thousands. Any consultant psychiatrist or senior social worker who sits on these panels will have to spend hours on each case. We do not yet know how many hours it would be on average, but for complicated cases, it could be many hours. What analysis has been undertaken of the capacity of consultant psychiatrists and senior social workers? Their professional bodies are beginning to look at that, but again, we were not able to ask them that during oral evidence, and because the written evidence was submitted so heavily in advance of these amendments and new clauses being tabled, we do not have that information in front of us.

We hear about the resourcing of our NHS mental health services and the fact that we do not have enough psychiatrists, so I query whether we have enough senior social workers. A senior social worker visits my house every year, but I have never seen the same social worker twice, because of the turnover issues, capacity issues and the lack of staff.

What will the Government do to ensure that the panels fulfil their responsibilities? We would be dealing with applicants who have very little time left, and being able to properly staff the panels must be a priority. We must not take psychiatrists and social workers away from their other work, while ensuring that people seeking an assisted death do not wait a long time. That is another matter on which we would have benefited from oral evidence from expert witnesses. We would also have benefited from the normal consultation that there would have been on a Government Bill, because we would have been looking at that matter for several months.

In summary, I accept that this set of new clauses and amendments is an effort to fix problems with the Bill, but problems remain, and there are probably some new ones as well. I will therefore not support a number of the provisions.

[Jack Abbott (Ipswich) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Sir Roger. I rise to speak to several new clauses and to amendment (e) to new clause 21.

There were many comments yesterday about the fact that a number of Members across the House had cited the judicial stage as an important reason why they supported the Bill. I challenge the notion that they voted for it exclusively for that reason, but I recognise the strength of feeling. To be frank, I was not one of them. I was not persuaded, not least because of a number of points made yesterday by my hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley, that the judicial stage would be anything other than a rubber-stamping exercise. I am certainly not going to go into “good judge, bad judge”. I hugely respect the legal profession, of which there are many representatives present.

The legal profession has a huge range of expertise and experience, but it could not be expected to cover in depth the psychiatric and social care aspects of the process, about which we have being raising concerns for weeks. For that reason, and especially given that we are retaining legal experience on the panel alongside social workers and psychiatrists—a triple-threat approach, as it were—I fail to see how anyone could reasonably argue that this approach is weaker. In my eyes, it is much stronger.

Of course, some people will always say that it does not go far enough; we have heard that several times. As has been acknowledged, we will never convince everybody that an amendment is safe or good enough. An uncomfortable truth that is rarely recognised but is worth mentioning—I am sure that I will shortly be misrepresented on social media for saying it—is that no safeguard that we could put in any Bill, on any subject, will 100% ensure that there will never be any mistakes.

We have to do our level best to ensure that the probability is reduced to an absolute minimum. However, when someone goes into surgery, there may always be complications that cannot be foreseen, and we know that there have been awful miscarriages of justice; as a new Government, we have spoken about them, from the Post Office scandal to infected blood. We also have to rely on the fact that we are entrusting experienced, trained professionals with carrying out this work. Not only more often than not, but in nearly every situation, bar the awful cases of which we are all aware, they do their work to the best of their ability, and we have to be absolutely honest about that.

We should not look at the new clauses in isolation. They are part of a package. A number of amendments have been agreed to, about coercion and about ensuring that medical professionals are trained to the right standard. Like my hon. Friend, I hope we will see further amendments on special educational needs and learning disabilities. Those things are really important, so it is worth recognising that in addition to the new clauses, which in my view ensure a much stronger approach to the final judgment, we have agreed to a number of other amendments.

I want to pick up the issue of whether the process should be adversarial or inquisitive. I am sure that hon. Friends who have served at the Bar will tell me if I am wrong, but in my view an adversarial process is one of competition: it pits someone trying to prosecute an argument against someone trying to defend it. In contrast, an inquisitive approach is about asserting the truth. In my view, people who are not only going through agonising pain but making agonising decisions about what to do with the remaining days of their life should not be on trial. We should approach them from a position not of suspicion, but of support. Of course, that is caveated by all the things we have talked about, particularly on things like coercion. If there is any idea that a person has been coerced into the decision, of course we should investigate that, but the process should not be adversarial.

The connecting element is that we should ensure that we get the balance right between safeguards and safety. We should not add so many barriers and layers that a person can never access the process because it is too cumbersome. I do not want people to spend the remaining days of their life sitting in endless meetings, consultations and an adversarial court process, or whatever it might be. But we absolutely have to have all the right safeguards: as we have said, if there is any suspicion that someone may have been coerced or does not have mental capacity, of course we should go down the relevant routes to ensure that that is not the case.

Part of the reason why people will make the decision is that they want the autonomy to go out on their own terms, plan their remaining months and enjoy experiences with their family. We must ensure that those precious days are spent with their family, not in endless meeting rooms, so we absolutely have to get the balance right. As has been acknowledged, the diagnosis is a really important part of it. We regularly talk about the six-month point in the diagnosis, but we know when many people receive their diagnosis, their final days will be much shorter, so in the main people do not have time to go through a lengthy, difficult process.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Eighth sitting)

Debate between Daniel Francis and Jack Abbott

Committee stage
Tuesday 11th February 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Daniel Francis]

I thank the Member in charge for her comments. That is the conversation we had when she invited me to join the Committee, and we will continue to have conversations as amendments come forward.

My concern is about some aspects of the Mental Capacity Act, which was not written for these scenarios, and the hon. Member for Richmond Park talked in particular about the statutory principles in it. I am not an expert on these issues, and my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud behind me is more of an expert on some of them. However, there is no obligation in the code of practice under the Act to consult carers involved in a person’s life. The code says:

“if it is practical and appropriate to do so, consult other people for their views about the person’s best interests”.

Therefore, given the way the Act and the code of practice are worded, there is no obligation in the scenarios I am discussing.

There is another issue I was going to raise before I took that intervention. Mencap does considerable hard work. At my local branch, there are many people whose parents are in their 70s and 80s and have cared for their child all their life. I am not being rude, but their child, who is in their 40s or 50s, does feel like a burden to their parents. They know the obligation their parents have to care for them for their whole life. I ask Members to consider what the Mental Capacity Act says: those adults are at a level of capacity to make decisions, but they have been supported in those decisions all their lives and do not—

[Jack Abbott]

We have spoken a lot today about further safeguards and provisions, beyond the Mental Capacity Act. However, I note that my hon. Friend has tabled amendment 339, which states that if a

“person has a learning disability or is autistic”

they

“must be provided with accessible information and given sufficient time to consider it”

and that, additionally, there must be a “supporter” or “advocate” with them. If that amendment was passed, would that satisfy some of my hon. Friend’s concerns about the Act?

[Daniel Francis]

I am hearing that that amendment will need some rewording, but it would address some of my concerns. I am working with Mencap, and further amendments will be tabled to later clauses of the Bill. I understand that one of our colleagues has also tabled amendments, which I welcome. However, I would still have concerns about the interpretation—and there are different interpretations—of the current code of practice when it comes to the involvement of carers and loved ones. Those concerns brought me to the place I came to on Second Reading. I did not seek to be the person standing here; indeed, a year ago, not only did I not believe that I would be a Member of Parliament, but I did not believe that I would be on this side of this argument. It is this particular point that has driven me to this position.

I will talk a little about evidence. The Law Society has a neutral position on the Bill, but it has said that, before the provisions become law, a comprehensive consultation should be undertaken to allow resident experts to share views on the appropriate definition of capacity for the purposes of the Bill. That is the position of the Law Society.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Seventh sitting)

Debate between Daniel Francis and Jack Abbott

Thursday 30th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Jack Abbott (Ipswich) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q286 Professor Owen, you have talked extensively about the complexity of the Bill. I think it fair to say that our previous witnesses this week believe that the simplest safeguards are the safest. I stress that the simplest does not necessarily mean the weakest; it means a straightforward plan. Do you agree with the points that the chief medical officer and others have made about simplicity? Where do you stand on that, and on the broader point about complexity?

Professor Owen: I am somewhat reminded of the old adage that for every complex problem there is a simple solution that is false. We are dealing with complexity here—I think we have to accept that—but complex law or poor law will not provide good safeguards. If you step back and think about what the Bill is really about, at its simplest, it is about the decisional right to end one’s own life in terminal illness.

Associated with that is the concept of mental capacity. I have had over 20 years of research interest in mental capacity. When I look at the issues relating to mental capacity with the Bill, they are complex, but the other important point to understand is that they are very novel. We are in uncharted territory with respect to mental capacity, which is very much at the hub of the Bill.

[Daniel Francis (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Lab)]

Q To elaborate on that point, Professor Owen, the Mental Capacity Act 2005 sets out the principles that a person must be assumed to have capacity, that a person cannot be treated as lacking capacity unless all practicable steps have been taken to support them and that a person cannot be treated as lacking capacity merely because their decision is unwise. Is it those issues that are causing you concern about capacity, or is it something else?

Professor Owen: It is a bit more fundamental than that, actually. If you look at how mental capacity features in the Bill, the test or the concept that clause 1 rightly invites us to consider—rightly, I think—is the capacity to decide to end one’s own life. The Mental Capacity Act comes in at clause 3.

I have looked at mental capacity a lot in research, and there is no experience of the decision to end one’s own life. It is outside the experience of the Mental Capacity Act, the Court of Protection, the associated research and practitioners on the ground. The reference to the Mental Capacity Act in clause 3 puts you into an area where there is no experience of the central capacity question under consideration. It is very important that Parliament be clear-eyed about that. I can talk about the Mental Capacity Act in detail if you like, but that is the main point that I want to make.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Seventh sitting)

Debate between Daniel Francis and Jack Abbott

Committee stage
Thursday 30th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Jack Abbott (Ipswich) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q286 Professor Owen, you have talked extensively about the complexity of the Bill. I think it fair to say that our previous witnesses this week believe that the simplest safeguards are the safest. I stress that the simplest does not necessarily mean the weakest; it means a straightforward plan. Do you agree with the points that the chief medical officer and others have made about simplicity? Where do you stand on that, and on the broader point about complexity?

Professor Owen: I am somewhat reminded of the old adage that for every complex problem there is a simple solution that is false. We are dealing with complexity here—I think we have to accept that—but complex law or poor law will not provide good safeguards. If you step back and think about what the Bill is really about, at its simplest, it is about the decisional right to end one’s own life in terminal illness.

Associated with that is the concept of mental capacity. I have had over 20 years of research interest in mental capacity. When I look at the issues relating to mental capacity with the Bill, they are complex, but the other important point to understand is that they are very novel. We are in uncharted territory with respect to mental capacity, which is very much at the hub of the Bill.

[Daniel Francis (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Lab)]

Q To elaborate on that point, Professor Owen, the Mental Capacity Act 2005 sets out the principles that a person must be assumed to have capacity, that a person cannot be treated as lacking capacity unless all practicable steps have been taken to support them and that a person cannot be treated as lacking capacity merely because their decision is unwise. Is it those issues that are causing you concern about capacity, or is it something else?

Professor Owen: It is a bit more fundamental than that, actually. If you look at how mental capacity features in the Bill, the test or the concept that clause 1 rightly invites us to consider—rightly, I think—is the capacity to decide to end one’s own life. The Mental Capacity Act comes in at clause 3.

I have looked at mental capacity a lot in research, and there is no experience of the decision to end one’s own life. It is outside the experience of the Mental Capacity Act, the Court of Protection, the associated research and practitioners on the ground. The reference to the Mental Capacity Act in clause 3 puts you into an area where there is no experience of the central capacity question under consideration. It is very important that Parliament be clear-eyed about that. I can talk about the Mental Capacity Act in detail if you like, but that is the main point that I want to make.