Proportional Representation

Lord Mackinlay of Richborough Excerpts

Monday 30th October 2017 Westminster Hall

[Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I am grateful to the Electoral Reform Society for the information that it provided to all Members in advance of the debate, and particularly pleased to have received so many representations from my constituents. However, I do not think that Members should forget that we had a full test of public opinion on first past the post just six years ago. That was a national poll—[Interruption.] Let me continue. That national poll was held in 2011, on the same day as many local elections.

[Sir Roger Gale in the Chair]

The turnout was just 42%, but in terms of local elections that was fairly respectable. Many would say, “Ah, but of course that was about AV, not about some system that is infinitely more complicated. If we presented that, we might have found the silver bullet. People would have voted for it.” We can rake over the coals of referendums and say, “What does this mean and what does that mean?”, but I think a two-to-one result said something very clearly: that no matter what our thoughts may be on the different forms of PR, first past the post was still the favoured means of electing Members to constituencies in this country.

[Tommy Sheppard]

I am keen to clarify something. The hon. Gentleman said that first past the post was the victor over the various forms of PR. Does he really believe that the 2011 referendum offered people a choice between first past the post and proportional representation? Does he actually believe that?

[Craig Mackinlay]

The choice, as the hon. Gentleman well knows, was between first past the post and an AV system. My point is that there was a choice to change what we have, which was rejected by two to one. I would take a lot of persuading to say that had some other, infinitely more academic, proper PR system been offered the result would have been much different. I will not say that first past the post is a system without flaws. Under various academic analyses, one can come up with a different alternative that might be better. However, I am minded of what Churchill once said about democracy: that it is the worst form of government, but it is better than all the others. That is probably true of first past the post as well. It has the benefit of being understandable and easily completed. It has a defined geographical area, which to me is the most powerful point: we maintain a clear link between those who elect and the elected representative.

[Caroline Lucas]

First, several of us have pointed out that there are proportional systems that keep the constituency link. I wish we could get rid of that argument, because it is not relevant. Secondly, as the hon. Gentleman is talking about Churchill again, I will use this occasion to let him know that Churchill said that if we are to choose between AV, second ballot and PR,

“I have no doubt whatever that the last is incomparably the fairest …and…best in the public interest.”—[Official Report, 2 June 1931; Vol. 253, c. 102.]

The hon. Gentleman quotes Churchill with great alacrity; perhaps he would like to quote that too.

--- Later in debate ---

[Craig Mackinlay]

I am always grateful to the hon. Lady for her contributions. This is a wide-ranging debate, and I will come on to other forms of PR.

On the question of decisiveness, we generally have decisive outcomes from first-past-the-post systems. In my South Thanet constituency I was very fortunate to receive 50.8% of the vote, so under first past the post, AV or supplementary vote I would still have won. That is true of many Members. AV, the system that was wholly rejected, has a “one, two, three” system, as hon. Members will be aware. Supplementary vote is seen in police and crime commissioner and mayoral elections. I stood for police and crime commissioner in 2012. Even after educating the public about what the two columns meant—“Vote for one, vote for two, or don’t use the second column and just use the first”—the number of spoilt ballot papers was truly exceptional. That is still true today in London elections. I do not know hon. Members’ experiences in their own constituencies, but the number of spoilt ballot papers in first past the post is vanishingly small, and I was alarmed to see the number of spoilt papers in mayoral elections.

[Dr Drew]

Why was there no attempt in the last Conservative manifesto, or the manifesto before that, to remove that form of election for police and crime commissioners? Why has the Conservative party never tried to remove the list system for European elections?

[Craig Mackinlay]

As the hon. Gentleman will be absolutely clear, the list system for European parliamentary elections has been foisted on us, and is not one that we would have chosen for ourselves.

I was just going through the various systems. With the single transferable vote system, we can have a transferable vote down from the winning candidate or a transferable vote up from the eliminated candidate. We can have the additional member system, with a constituency member and a party vote top-up. Last year, I was fortunate to go on a visit with an all-party parliamentary group to Hungary, which operates that system. We were warmly entertained by one of the Hungarian list MPs. I asked her about that experience. There are others in this room who are more familiar with these systems, particularly in Scotland. I asked, “Are you busy as a constituency MP?” She said, “No, I don’t get any post at all. I have nothing to do, because nobody knows I exist, because there is no link to my constituency.”

[Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP)]

Does the hon. Gentleman not think it ironic that a number of his colleagues in the Scottish Parliament were elected on the regional list system, and therefore many of the comments he is making about list MPs now apply to him? Does he consider them to be second-class MPs?

[Craig Mackinlay]

I am talking about the system for this place, one that has served us well. I have a lot to say about what is wrong with any type of PR system, and I am no more in favour of the Scottish system now than I ever was. In Northern Ireland there is a slightly different system of a single transferable vote.

Moving on to the European parliamentary elections, which were mentioned by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), I am not against the d’Hondt formula just because it was created by a Belgian mathematician from 1878. How many hon. Members have knocked on doors and dared to asked the elector: “Do you know who your MEPs are?” I am within this bubble in the south-east region, and I can only name four MEPs for the region. What chance do others have of getting a reply they want, when they send out their letters to that faceless 10?

[Jonathan Reynolds]

Is it the hon. Gentleman’s assertion that when Members of the European Parliament were elected by first past the post, the country knew who they were?

[Craig Mackinlay]

That is a point well made, and that leads us to the state that we are in today. My point is that the constituency link is lost, but how can we have a region? When we have a pure system, a little like Israel or the regional system for European parliamentary elections, how on earth can we have a constituency link from Milton Keynes to the Isle of Wight and through to east Kent? How can people feel any familiarity with or knowledge of the people who represent them? To have a proper system in which those elected completely reflect the votes cast, the area has to get bigger and bigger, and that link is lost.

Even under the d’Hondt system we have closed and open lists. The worry with the closed list system is that hon. Members cannot say with any sincerity that it is the right system and that it puts the power in the hands of the electors. It puts the power in the hands of the party machines, electing people who are in favour with the party leadership of the time to be top or bottom of the list, or wherever in between.

[Wes Streeting]

It would be down to parties to choose how to decide the order of the lists. In the Labour party, members of the party have always decided on their candidates at a general election. There is no reason to think that, under a proportional or list system, members of the Labour party would not be involved in deciding both the candidates and the order of the list.

[Craig Mackinlay]

Again, it puts the power in the hands of the party rather than those of the elector. That is the key point. I see many constituencies where the person is elected because their views are more in tune with their public rather than with the party that people normally support. I certainly put the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion in that category. She has that appeal because it is her, and that is very important.

It is unfair to say that any of us, no matter how we were elected, treats any of our electors any differently. We do not say to them, “Did you vote for me? Then I will not help you. Oh, you did vote for me? Then I will.” That completely disappears once we are elected Members; so it should be and so it should stay. It comes down to a question of what is fair. My view of fairness will probably be different from other people’s, and that is the problem with the varieties of PR or alternative systems out there. I worry that perceptions of fairness change depending on the vote share and the outcome of the protagonist’s favoured party at the last outing. That is another argument against PR.

One final unfairness is last month’s vote in Germany. Angela Merkel’s Christian Democratic Union party received just 33% of the vote. There is no clear Government even today.

[Wera Hobhouse]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Craig Mackinlay]

I am making a powerful point, and then I will give way. Angela Merkel received 33% of the vote and is unable to form a Government. How will that Government be formed? It will be formed in back rooms, not anywhere near the ballot box or the people who elected on that day. That has to be one of the most unfair systems for creating a Government.

[Wera Hobhouse]

I am very grateful that the hon. Gentleman has given way. I always love it when people talk with such conviction about areas that they do not necessarily know so much about. I challenge him that I know more about Germany than he does. A coalition Government is not an unfair Government—it is a coalition, in which two or several parties come together to form a Government, bringing several views together, rather than just the view of one party. That does not mean it is an unfair Government, or that people do not know what the result of that Government will be. It is a coming together of views that creates a better democracy and better governance.

[Craig Mackinlay]

I thank the hon. Lady for that view and perception, but she must realise that, in these back-room coalition deals, it can be the most small party, which has been rejected virtually nationally, that holds the balance of power. [Hon. Members: “Like the DUP?”] We do not need DUP Members to that extent, although we are grateful to have them. [Interruption.] May I just finish this point? In Germany, it is often the Greens that hold the balance. In this country, deals are generally done with parties of a similar persuasion, exactly as in our maintenance agreement with the DUP.

[Wera Hobhouse]

What is wrong with smaller parties having a say in government? It is sometimes very healthy and is a great sign of democracy.

[Craig Mackinlay]

I do not disagree with the hon. Lady’s point, but when parties completely different from the main parties hold the balance of power, that is a danger.

I will close my remarks; I am glad they have caused some excitement. If we had a 33% result in this country, we would have another general election. That does not happen in Germany and other places that have PR in prevalence. I want strong Government, and first past the post, despite its flaws, tends to give that result most of the time. Frankly, I think we should reject any other system.

Several hon. Members rose—

[Sir Roger Gale (in the Chair)]

My miserable maths suggest that, if a self-denying ordinance is imposed and Members confine themselves to five minutes’ speaking each, most if not all Members will get in. If Members are greedy, not everybody will get in.

G20

Lord Mackinlay of Richborough Excerpts

Monday 10th July 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

We take the issue of intelligence sharing very seriously. It is important that we are able to share intelligence with our allies in the United States and with other allies around the world, but what matters is that we are able to do that on the basis of confidence that that intelligence will be treated appropriately. I can assure the hon. Lady that we take the whole issue of cyber-security extremely seriously. That is why we have set up the new National Cyber Security Centre. We recognise and understand the threat that Russia poses in that area.

[Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)]

We heard positive words from the President of the United States at the G20 summit—and more this morning from the Prime Minister of Australia—on the opportunities for rapid and comprehensive trade deals between their countries and the UK. Does my right hon. Friend agree that new trade deals with old friends and new, which will be realisable only outside the customs union, will add to the prosperity of a new, global Britain?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We have been very clear that we want to undertake, sign up to and activate new trade deals with old friends and new allies alike. That, of course, means not being part of the customs union, which would prevent us from doing so. It is important that we are able to negotiate a trade agreement with the EU and trade agreements around the rest of the world.

European Council

Lord Mackinlay of Richborough Excerpts

Monday 26th June 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

We all want to ensure that the deal we come to with the European Union will ensure that we have the comprehensive free trade agreement that sees growth, prosperity and jobs here in the UK. That is the aim, but also we will be able to see jobs being brought here as a result of the trade arrangements we will be making around the rest of the world.

[Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)]

May I pay tribute to the Prime Minister for confirming, once more, that the Conservatives will fulfil the delivery of the referendum result of control of our laws, borders and money? Will she give due assurance that any pressure to allow the European Court of Justice any role on immigration or the future indefinite leave to remain status of EU citizens in this country will be flatly opposed?

[The Prime Minister]

I give my hon. Friend the assurance that, as I said earlier, we believe that assuring the rights of EU citizens living here in the United Kingdom should be done through our courts, not through the ECJ. I will just reiterate the point I made: when many people voted to leave the European Union, one of the things they wanted to ensure was that the ECJ no longer had jurisdiction here in the UK.

Article 50

Lord Mackinlay of Richborough Excerpts

Wednesday 29th March 2017 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman referred to my vision for Brexit. As I have made very clear, in the House this afternoon and elsewhere, we want that comprehensive free trade agreement, we want good security co-operation, and we want good security on justice and home affairs matters. That is what is in the letter to President Tusk. I do not consider it to be an extreme view of Brexit; I consider it to be a good deal for the United Kingdom.

[Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on the very reasonable underlying tone of her letter to President Tusk. As she will know, this is a day for which I have campaigned for some 26 years. Does she agree that the dividends of the restoration of democracy to our institutions, the ending of huge fiscal transfers to the European Union and the potential for international new trade deals are prizes from which everyone in our country will benefit in years to come?

[The Prime Minister]

As I said earlier, I know that there are Members on both sides of the House who have campaigned for this for a very long time. My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I think that what underlay the vote for people was that sense of the need for the United Kingdom to be able to have control of its budget, control of its laws and control of its immigration rules, and not simply be subject to decisions made in Brussels.

European Council

Lord Mackinlay of Richborough Excerpts

Monday 24th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

Of course the negotiations have not yet formally started with the European Union, but the sort of deal we are talking about, and the sort of deal we want to get that will enhance prosperity and ensure jobs for the future, will be good for all generations here in the UK.

[Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)]

Have our European partners realised that a new UK-EU free trade arrangement will be good as a positive-sum game for all concerned, given that 22 of 27 of them have a trade surplus with us? Is the Prime Minister detecting that common sense is finally starting to prevail?

[The Prime Minister]

I think that member states and the EU are increasingly looking at this in relation not just to what it means for the UK, but what it means for them as well. I have said consistently that this is not just about the UK, in some sense, being a supplicant to the remaining 27 of the EU; it is about us negotiating a relationship that works for both sides.

Oral Answers to Questions

Lord Mackinlay of Richborough Excerpts

Wednesday 12th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[David Mundell]

May I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on retaining his position as shadow Scottish Secretary? I understand that on the Benches behind him is the Westminster spokesman of the Scottish Labour party, and I am sure that it will emerge during these questions how those two positions interrelate.

The point that I would make in response to the hon. Gentleman’s question is that we will have a common response across the United Kingdom and that whatever support is put in place for businesses in the north of England will apply to businesses in Scotland.

[Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)]

13. Scotland has a long and proud history of invention, innovation and creativity, and has always looked out to the world. Could the Government do more to rekindle that outlook in Scotland, rather than the First Minister creating uncertainty and constantly talking about independence?

[David Mundell]

I agree that we need to see Brexit as an opportunity, and I was very interested to see yesterday that the leader of Glasgow City Council also took the view that Brexit offered an opportunity for Glasgow to continue to flourish. Rather than doom-mongering, which is the constant refrain of the SNP, let us take a positive approach and seize the opportunities that are out there for Scotland.

UK-EU Renegotiation

Lord Mackinlay of Richborough Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

The analogy was getting quite complicated, but I do not agree with that. If we were not outside Schengen, my hon. Friend would have a very fair point, but we are in a situation where we are able to have the best of both worlds. Let us keep our borders and let us not let in foreign nationals who do not have a right to be here—that is strengthened by this agreement—but let us keep the free movement, so that British people can live and work in other European countries. That is the best of both worlds.

[Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)]

I wish to press my right hon. Friend a little further about the emergency brake, which sounded so hopeful some weeks ago. My hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) talked about backseat drivers, but the concept of 28 feet reaching for the pedal, all wanting an influence, really means that when a hazard is seen, indecision will mean that an accident will surely happen. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is far better to have independent control of the brake, the clutch, the accelerator and, indeed, the steering wheel?

[The Prime Minister]

First, the European Commission’s statement is very clear, saying that it

“considers that the kind of information provided to it by the United Kingdom shows the…exceptional situation…exists in the United Kingdom today.”

That would enable us to pull this brake to make sure that people could not get instant access to our welfare benefits. But there is another consideration that those thinking that we would be better off outside the European Union have to think about: when most of those countries outside the EU that want a close relationship with it ask for free access to the single market, the first demand is that there should also be the free movement of people. That is the case with Norway, for example. This is a deal from within and in many ways, even on this issue, it would be better than a deal from without.