Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Debate between Colum Eastwood and Ian Paisley

Consideration of Lords amendments
Tuesday 18th July 2023 Commons Chamber

[Ian Paisley]

The Secretary of State said that immunity will be blocked if there is an ongoing process. Of course, in all likelihood, the only trials that will actually take place—that are in process at the minute and could take place—are those against members or former members of the security services. No IRA alleged terrorists are about to face trial or are up for trial, and at present it is unlikely that they will be. Therefore, Government Members who think that, by supporting the Bill, they are supporting the security personnel and protecting them from prosecution are wildly mistaken.

Some republicans will not let this issue go. There have been a couple of comments tonight, from Members on both the Front Bench and the Back Benches, suggesting that no vexatious cases are ongoing. Actually, vindictive and vexatious cases are ongoing, and I want to put one before the House tonight. Colum Marks was lawfully shot dead by an RUC officer in an action justified by the police, the Army and those involved because he was about to murder and maim in Downpatrick. It is very unfortunate that that was the action that had to be taken.

The officer who took part in that operation has now faced three trials. He was most recently cleared by the Director of Public Prosecutions with the words that this was a lawful killing, not only in his self-defence but in the defence of the state and the people living in Downpatrick. Was that the end of it? No, there is now going to be another trial—another attempt to drag that officer, known as Officer B, before the courts. That is vindictive. That officer has long since retired. He has another family and is trying to live his life, yet this continues to hang over him. We have a certain shameful snake-oil salesman of a legal practitioner saying that he is going to take this person—this “RUC murderer”—back to court on behalf of the Marks family. That is vindictive and it is ongoing, and those matters do offend.

[Colum Eastwood]

Can I ask the hon. Gentleman to be very careful in his language? The last time that solicitors were named in this House, we ended up in a very bad and dangerous place. I would just ask him to be very careful about his language, because we can never go back to those days, and people in this House should not be giving licence for that.

[Ian Paisley]

I thank the hon. Member for that, but he should be very clear that I did not actually mention solicitors. I said a legal practitioner, because they are not a solicitor. He wants to draw that out, as he has done by his comment, but he will now see that it is someone very specific. People will be able to look up the website of that person, who makes snake-oil sales in this case in that particular way, and it is wrong because such a person should recognise the outcome of the justice process.

In the Republic of Ireland there is no legacy equivalent. In the Republic of Ireland there is no equivalent for the right to access historical legal papers. There is no equivalent in the Republic of Ireland for ombudsman inquiries into Garda Siochana activity. In the Republic of Ireland there were requests by this state for 116 warrants for extradition to bring known terrorists back over the border to face prosecution in our courts, but only eight of those warrants were ever pursued and delivered on. More importantly, in the Republic of Ireland the possession of weapons in Northern Ireland is not regarded as a criminal offence and is not regarded as a terrorist offence. The possession of weapons in Northern Ireland, according to the Republic of Ireland, is a political offence, and people cannot face prosecution for a political offence.

I think Members can see some of the problems. The idea that we have a view from another state that all that is happening here should be dragged to court somewhere else by us on some sort of high moral ground is absolutely shameful. The Republic of Ireland has threatened His Majesty’s Government to take them to court on this issue, and they should have a good, hard, long look at themselves, because if this issue of legacy is going to be resolved, it will have to be resolved by both the north and the south, as well as by the United Kingdom Government, properly looking at this issue and resolving it.

I would go so far as to say that the Republic of Ireland actually has a duty to address these issues. Do Members want to know how many murders have a cross-border element to them? Of the 3,700-odd terrorist offences, or the almost 3,700 dead, almost 600 have a cross-border element. My hon. Friend the Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) mentioned his own personal circumstances and the cases involving his family, where the terrorists fled back over the border. That is where weapon hoards were stored, and where the Republic of Ireland gave sanctuary to those people who were involved in almost 600 murders—of Roman Catholics and Protestants—in Northern Ireland. Remember that there were more Roman Catholics murdered by the Provisional IRA in Northern Ireland than there were Roman Catholics who were done to death by any other organisation, including the state. It is important to remember that the biggest group of people who get off the hook here is the Provisional IRA, and we should be guarding strongly against that.

I want to put on the record the comments of Senator Michael McDowell, the former Justice Minister of the Republic of Ireland. Once again, the Senator has made it clear that, in the Republic of Ireland—he wrote this in The Irish Times—

“the Irish Government of which I was a member took the decision that further investigation and prosecution by An Garda Siochana of such historic offences was no longer warranted or justified by reason of the greater interest in ending the Provisional campaign and all other political violence in Northern Ireland.”

Of the Irish Government, he concludes:

“And so, as far as this state was concerned, a line was drawn across the page of historic Provisional IRA criminality in Northern Ireland.”

If Members want to look for immunity from justice, look no further than 60 or 70 miles from where I live, which is across the border in the Republic of Ireland, where they granted immunity.

Of course, in relation to the Government here, my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) made comments about the on-the-run letters and about the decision by those who support the Belfast agreement to let the prisoners out of jail, and all of those things turned justice on its head. I think we have to recognise that this is not going to be an easy fix. But I can tell you one thing, Mr Deputy Speaker: what the Government are proposing today will not satisfy people on the Government Back Benches and it will not satisfy the victims in Northern Ireland. I would appeal to the Government to think again.

Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill [Lords]

Debate between Colum Eastwood and Ian Paisley

Wednesday 26th October 2022 Commons Chamber

[Ian Paisley]

I thank my right hon. Friend for making that very important point about the powers of the commissioner, which was going to be my next point.

Far be it from me to hand out any advice to nationalists, but if I was a nationalist, I would want to try to satisfy Unionists on this point. I would not want to laugh at them, as appears to be the attitude—

[Colum Eastwood (Foyle) (SDLP)]

Who’s laughing?

[Ian Paisley]

Laughing and pouring scorn on their identity leaves Unionists—[Interruption.] “I’m laughing at you, not what you’re saying”—so you’re laughing at a people and at a community—is the barrow-boy response that comes back. I do not say those things. I have a very good record of not saying those things. I cherish people’s identity. What makes me strong as a Unionist is that I can have my identity and understand someone else’s. I love—not despise—the diversity that is there. It is the diversity that makes us strong. That is the point that the hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) should dwell on when he speaks later on. No doubt he will.

The issue—this is the point that my right hon. Friend the Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) made—is about having due regard in terms of the commissioner. That is the point of the authority of the commissioner. The commissioner that will deal with the identity that matters most to me will effectively be powerless and emasculated from day one, unable to make a single ruling that must be taken care of or noted.

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Debate between Colum Eastwood and Ian Paisley

Report stage & 3rd reading
Tuesday 26th October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Ian Paisley]

Of course, this is not the first time that Social Democratic and Labour party Members have opposed the Belfast agreement and called for changes when it suits them. The previous Member for Foyle talked about the “ugly scaffolding” that surrounded the Belfast agreement—

[Colum Eastwood]

Maybe the hon. Member will give way to me, will he?

[Ian Paisley]

Of course, the “ugly scaffolding”—

[Colum Eastwood]

No? Do you want to give way?

[Ian Paisley]

I will in a moment.

[Colum Eastwood]

Good man.

[Ian Paisley]

I am never frightened to give way, while others are, and the Member knows that, so he should not worry about that. I will give way in a moment. The SDLP Members are getting particularly ratty now, because some of the points that have been made are being put back to them—that they are supporting an inherently flawed agreement. Many in Northern Ireland want to get to normal, democratic politics. One reason why we have the problems that have been highlighted today and why we have the problems that necessitate the Bill is that we do not have fundamentally democratic institutions in operation in Northern Ireland. I would love to see those institutions come into place.

Some of the amendments that have been tabled are about keeping in place and reinforcing the sectarian nature of the agreements. For example, we are told that the petition of concern is there to protect minorities, and that provided that that minority is a nationalist minority, that petition of concern should be retained, but whenever some people believe that at some point in future it may be a Unionist minority, the petition of concern better be done away with pretty quickly, because we would not want that Unionist minority on the island of Ireland having protections and rights. That is not lost on many people outside this House.

Does the hon. Member for Foyle (Colum Eastwood) still want to intervene?

[Colum Eastwood]

I would love to—if I can remember the hon. Member’s point. I thank him for giving way. On his point about the former Member for Foyle, of course, he negotiated the Good Friday agreement when the hon. Gentleman and his party were standing outside with placards, shouting and cheering. By the way, they were shouted down by the people of Ireland and the people of Northern Ireland, who voted massively in favour of the Good Friday agreement. Of course, the hon. Gentleman’s party has been implementing the Good Friday agreement ever since it did the thing at St Andrews. You talked about the petition of concern—

[Colum Eastwood]

indicated assent.

[Ian Paisley]

I think the point is not lost on anyone watching that the Member has lost.

Let me turn to some of the issues that have been raised. People have talked today about threats to the institutions—threats that they might be brought down by the Democratic Unionist party. Of course, when the Justice Minister made it clear on Radio Ulster that she did not find it comfortable being in the Northern Ireland Executive and might leave it, that was not characterised as a threat to the institution. It is amazing that when one does one thing, it is characterised in one way, but if anyone else from a different tradition indicates their concerns about the institutions, it is suddenly characterised as a threat to democracy and to the process, when it is no such thing. The fact of the matter is that the Unionist people of Northern Ireland have rights and expect their Unionist politicians to defend those rights, and we will defend their rights. No matter what the cost and no matter what the price, those rights will be defended, come what may.

The current hon. Member for Foyle made the point that the Justice Minister could not be someone from the nationalist tradition. I would make the point, which is not lost on anyone, that the last time there was a Unionist Justice Minister was in 1971—

[Ian Paisley]

Unionists are not allowed—[Interruption.] Well, David Ford, I do not think he was—

[Colum Eastwood]

Claire Sugden is a Unionist.

[Ian Paisley]

She is an independent. There was no one brought from the main Unionist party into the Justice Department, because the nationalist parties would object to that and not allow it to take place. It is very clear to all those who see that what suits one party at one time will only be used provided that it does not encourage or support the Unionist tradition. That is why there are many objections.

People from Northern Ireland will look on at this—I will use the phrase fiddling while Rome burns. Some people may think that more attractive than others do, but I certainly do not. Many people know that a torpedo has been fired at the Northern Ireland institutions and it is outside the control of the Unionist parties and nationalist parties operating in the Assembly, and that torpedo is, of course, the Northern Ireland protocol. Until and unless the Government in this place resolve themselves to do what they said in their Command Paper in July this year, that torpedo will eventually hole those institutions below the line. When that happens, no amount of hand-wringing in this place and no amount of declaring one’s dying loyalty to whatever interpretation of the Belfast agreement people feel they wish to support will salvage those institutions.

I urge the Government to move immediately—now—and to do what they should have done by invoking article 16 of the protocol and resolving that issue once and for all. Otherwise, we will continue to have the cherry-picking that we have seen in this place, with one party wanting the language provisions, another party wanting to address the issues to do with abortions and another party then wanting something else. That will go on in an infernal circle for all to see. I encourage the Government to move on that protocol, and to move immediately.