Ambulance Response Times

Debate between Christine Jardine and Helen Morgan

Thursday 6th March 2025 Westminster Hall

[Helen Morgan (North Shropshire) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Ms Jardine. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Glastonbury and Somerton (Sarah Dyke) for securing this important debate and for opening it with, as usual, a thoughtful and well-researched contribution.

It is no surprise that Members have largely been in agreement in this debate, and they have made useful contributions, so I will quickly run through them. The hon. Member for Ilford South (Jas Athwal) importantly highlighted the issue of burnout and the impact of the current situation on hard-working staff in the ambulance service, and the hon. Member for West Suffolk (Nick Timothy) highlighted the huge regional variations and the inequality of service for people who live in very rural areas.

The hon. Member for Redditch (Chris Bloore) told a story�which would be familiar to people in Shropshire�of long handover delays; my hon. Friend the Member for South Devon (Caroline Voaden) mentioned the importance of dealing with stroke patients and seeing them quickly; and the hon. Member for Wolverhampton West (Warinder Juss), with whom my constituents and I share the West Midlands Ambulance Service, highlighted some of our concerns with that service as a whole.

I was first elected in the North Shropshire by-election back in December 2021. All that time ago, when my colleagues and I were out canvassing, it was extremely apparent that ambulance service delays were the No. 1 issue for my constituents. Every canvassing session we did, somebody heard an absolutely heartbreaking story of an ambulance delay that had led to a much worse outcome for a loved one, or possibly even a death. In all honesty, it was a shocking campaigning issue to have to focus on.

Almost a year later, after being elected, I completed a shift with West Midlands Ambulance Service in Shropshire, and I was blown away by the professionalism, dedication and hard work of the ambulance crew. But suffice it to say, the delays were still as appalling as they had been a year before.

Since then, there has been huge political turmoil, and that has not helped the situation. There have been four Prime Ministers, six Secretaries of State for Health and Social Care, and two Governments, and I am afraid to say we are still not seeing the improvement that we need. This winter, handover and waiting times reached the point where in some ambulance services people suffering heart attacks were at times advised to drive themselves to hospital. That is an unacceptable situation.

The most recent available data for my local ambulance service in Shropshire�the rural element of the West Midlands Ambulance Service�goes up to December 2024, and it still paints a stark picture of the distressing reality facing my constituents and people across Shropshire. The mean waiting time for category 1 callouts was 12 minutes 19 seconds, while the target is seven minutes. For category 2 callouts, the mean waiting time was 50 minutes and 36 seconds, while the target is 18 minutes. Those categories include callouts to people suffering from heart attacks and suspected strokes. For category 3 callouts, the mean waiting time was well over 200 minutes, and the target is an hour. After a long campaign, �21 million was secured to boost emergency care, and there has been improvement, but response times are still totally unacceptable.

At times, as many as 16 ambulances have been queuing outside the Shrewsbury and Telford emergency departments that serve my constituents. More than one in three ambulances have to wait for more than an hour to hand over a patient, and the longest wait was an astonishing 17 hours. Even this week, as we approach the spring, a constituent told me they had stopped to help an elderly lady laying on a cold pavement with a suspected stroke and had had to wait nearly an hour and a half for an ambulance or first responder to arrive. All the while, the lady�s breath become more and more shallow. This crisis is real, and it has not significantly improved.

Let us look at the national picture. The Darzi report found that each day in 2024 around 800 working days were lost to handover delays. However we cut that�14,000 paramedics a year; 112 years�it is just not acceptable. It is no surprise that people have lost faith in emergency health services as a result of the last Government�s appalling neglect of the NHS. The paramedics, nurses and doctors in our emergency departments go above and beyond, but they are stretched to breaking point and are unfortunately starting to leave the service because of burnout. We are campaigning to end excessive handover delays by increasing the number of staffed hospital beds and by tackling the impact of degrading corridor care.

Let me focus for a moment on social care. Crucially, A&E delays are often caused by an inability to admit patients because thousands of people are stuck in hospital every day when they would be better cared for elsewhere. Bed occupancy is well above safe levels in hospitals, and one in seven hospital beds are occupied by somebody who would be better cared for either in a care home or in their own home. Meanwhile, local authorities such as Shropshire are spending as much as 80% of their budget on social care. They are at risk of issuing section 114 notices as they are unable to cope any longer.

It is really important that we get on with the cross-party talks on social care and with the Casey review. We in the Liberal Democrat party absolutely welcome that, but we urge the Government to speed up the timetable and crack on with it as soon as possible, because 2028 is too late for a long-term solution for social care. The cross-party talks that fell through last week need to be reinstated. I urge the Minister to encourage the Secretary of State to do that as soon as possible.

Let us focus for a moment on the rural problem. Imagine an ideal scenario in which the issue of handover delays has been resolved, the urgent and emergency care plan has been successfully implemented and the 10-year plan has sorted out other issues across the NHS. For those who live near Oswestry, Whitchurch or Market Drayton in my constituency, the nearest community ambulance station has closed and the nearest station or hospital is well over 20 minutes away�that is, if the traffic is clear. Otherwise, if the response time targets for category 1 or 2 calls is to be met, they are reliant on a spare ambulance roaming free in the community, waiting for that call to come in. That is unrealistic. We would expect and hope that, in between calls, paramedics would go and have a cup of tea and a sit down, to decompress from some of the awful things they have seen that day, if they do not have a patient to go to immediately. Hopefully, they go back to the ambulance station in between call-outs.

The implementation of this centralised model across the country is detrimental to the people who live a long way from an ambulance station. It may well be efficient in urban areas, but it certainly is not working in rural ones. I hope the Minister will commit to reviewing the service that is received in rural places. There are thousands of people in large market towns. For example, Oswestry has nearly 8,000 residents, Market Drayton has more than 12,000 and Whitchurch has nearly 10,000. These people expect to receive an ambulance within the target time. I must urge the Minister to commit to looking at ambulance station provision in those areas. I also repeat my colleagues� calls for the Government to publish accessible, localised reports on response times and to create an emergency fund to reverse the closures of community ambulance stations that have already taken place.

The Midlands Air Ambulance Charity does fantastic work across the west midlands and is one of the busiest air ambulance charities in the country. It does not have an NHS contract; it is entirely reliant on the contributions of people living locally. I wonder whether the Minister might consider putting air ambulance services on a statutory footing, because we are so dependent on them, particularly when specialist hospitals might be a long way away and air ambulance crews supply specialist support to stabilise patients where they are found, at the roadside or in their home.

The situation is unacceptable, and I look forward to seeing the urgent and emergency care plan, which I hope it will consider the needs of rural areas. I must urge the Minister to look at social care, because that is one of the key things we need to do to fix the crisis in the NHS.

[Christine Jardine (in the Chair)]

I call the Opposition spokesperson.

Holocaust Memorial Day

Debate between Christine Jardine and Helen Morgan

Thursday 25th January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

It is an honour to follow the hon. Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy). I thank the right hon. Member for Barking (Dame Margaret Hodge) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) for securing today’s debate and allowing us to talk about something that has always been important in this House—Holocaust Memorial Day has always been the day on which we remember and recommit ourselves to ensuring that the holocaust does not happen again—but this year, it is particularly important that we are aware of it.

Two things have happened to me personally since the last time I spoke in one of these debates. Like my right hon. Friend the Member for Orkney and Shetland, I am of that generation for whom the holocaust was always history. We were told about it by our parents who had been children during the war and had heard about it. We had no personal experience of it, but information and knowledge about it was everywhere. It was in comics, in the films that we saw and the books that we read, everything from “The Diary of a Young Girl” by Anne Frank to “Schindler’s List”. We were aware of it, but we did not actually believe that it would or could ever happen again, because we would not let it happen again—it would never have happened in this country anyway, because we would not let it happen. However, since 7 October, I have become increasingly worried that we in this country are just a fraction complacent about the danger that anything like the holocaust, Darfur or Cambodia could happen here.

Just over a year ago, I went to see “Good” with David Tennant in the west end. It is an absolutely wonderful play: it is about a good, liberally minded academic whose best friend is Jewish and who lives in pre-war Germany. He becomes complacent about the Nazis and what they are doing, he gradually becomes seduced and involved, and it has a cataclysmic ending. The other thing that happened was hearing the first reports of what was happening in Israel on 7 October. I was in a taxi on my way to the airport to fly out to a friend’s wedding in Spain, and I remember thinking, “Oh my God, what’s happening? This is horrific.” I had no idea of what was to follow.

A few weeks ago, I was speaking to a handful of students at the University of Glasgow, and we were talking about various issues on campus. They told me that they had been to a debate about an international chain of coffee shops that happened to have an outlet just off campus. It was all very civilised—a chat and a strong debate—and then one of the students, who was Jewish, told me that one of the other students had said, “But it’s only Jews that go there anyway.” I was utterly horrified that a comment like that could be made in a meeting of young people in this country.

That is not the only example. I visited the synagogue in Edinburgh recently, where I heard the concern of ordinary people about what they are experiencing every day. The Jewish students’ association at Edinburgh University is one of the largest and fastest growing in the country, but its members feel completely isolated. Jewish students have written to associations across the country—to every university—asking for support against the antisemitism that they see creeping into their daily lives, and only a handful replied.

[Helen Morgan (North Shropshire) (LD)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the answer is for people to engage with the lived experience of Jewish people and to understand the profound effect that it has on their lives? My constituent Natalie Cumming has written about the experience of her family fleeing persecution, both in Russia and the horrifying experience of her sister, who survived Auschwitz and whose story she retells in her book. That book was one of the most difficult reads of my life and I think that people need to engage with those stories and understand, so that they do not repeat that kind of prejudice going forward.

[Christine Jardine]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right: it is about listening to, hearing and engaging with the experiences of holocaust survivors. It is about hearing the direct relating of tales, as we did at Mr Speaker’s ceremony earlier this week, because surveys in America have discovered that 20% of young Americans do not believe that the holocaust actually happened, and something like another 30% believe that the holocaust is exaggerated —that it was a minor event. We are in a very dangerous position at the moment. Antisemitism is creeping in everywhere: we hear of it every day, from people who are finding that it is becoming part of their daily experience, and we are not aware of it. We are all good, liberally minded, intelligent people; how easy it would be for us to get drawn in and not realise what is happening around us—to let it happen. By the time we notice, it would be too late.

A few years ago, I visited Yad Vashem, the holocaust memorial in Israel, and one of the things that struck me is that it is built on a hillside. It is dark, scary and depressing. We hear the tales, we see the remnants of people’s lives that were destroyed by the holocaust and it has an oppressive feel to it. However, as we move towards the end, we see the light at the end of the tunnel, and we come out to a breathtaking view of Israel. At the moment, I feel that we are truly in such a dark spot, and we have to make sure that we do not get trapped and pulled further into antisemitism becoming accepted in this country. We have to remember the light is at the end of the tunnel, and strive for that.