Referendum on Scottish Independence

Christine Jardine Excerpts

Monday 13th November 2017 Westminster Hall

[Martyn Day]

I cannot give the hon. Gentleman that figure, but I am sure that if he has it at his fingertips, he will intervene to give it to me.

[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Martyn Day]

I will come back to the hon. Lady in one moment. If we believe in a parliamentary democracy using the system that Westminster uses—I have a lot of complaints about that and want a proportional system of representation at all elections—then we have to accept that a simple majority is a win under this democratic approach.

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[Martyn Day]

We hear fear stories about oil at different times. In my political career, which spanned 16 years as a councillor before I was elected to Parliament, oil has been one of the Brigadoons of Scottish politics. It is always running out or a burden to us when there is an election, and there are always new finds and windfalls afterwards.

The point that I wanted to make is that choice must always be informed. I try to be fair and balanced, and I hope that everyone here agrees that I am trying to open the debate in an even-handed manner. If I have one criticism of the 2014 referendum campaign, it is that the yes side, in which I participated—I am as much to blame for this as anyone—often projected a message of “change but no change”, while the no side clearly did the opposite, projecting a message of “no change but change”. Far from settling the issue, that left us with what became an emphatic “not yet” holding position, which combined with the failure of the winning side to respect the terms of their own mandate leaves us where we are today.

We were assured that a no vote would result in a union of equals, the closest possible thing to federalism and a guarantee that we would stay in the EU. By contrast, I and people like me on the pro-independence side respected the decision, and we did not plan even to consider having another referendum on such a short timescale, but circumstances change. [Interruption.] Circumstances change. Perhaps if the Government had delivered on the promises made during the referendum this situation would not have emerged.

Perhaps both petitions have been overtaken by events. Both predate the 2017 snap election, which provided the public with a political opportunity to express their democratic views on this and other issues, the result in Scotland being yet another win for the SNP and the pro-independence movement. As I said earlier, with 35 seats, we have a majority in this House from the Scottish electorate. We were elected on a clear pledge— I will quote it to remove any confusion—that

“any continued Tory attempts to block the people of Scotland having a choice on their future—when the time is right and the options are clear—would be democratically unsustainable.”

I have seen nothing to change my mind about that as we head towards a Brexit cliff edge.

It will not have escaped anyone’s notice that we have had a number of referendums recently, including the 2014 Scottish independence one. Indeed, I have witnessed 12 referendums across the UK in my lifetime, half of which directly affected Scotland and four of which I was eligible to take part in—and I did so fully in each case. As hon. Members will no doubt be aware, all 12 referendums were of a constitutional nature of some sort, and there is a clear pattern that major UK and devolved nation constitutional issues are now determined in that way.

That leads me to the question of process: is a referendum the correct method to decide on Scottish independence? If we believe in democracy, there are logically only two routes by which we can make such a decision: the parliamentary route or by public plebiscite. The debate has moved on considerably in my lifetime from the days when we took the view that having a simple majority of SNP MPs at Westminster was the route to negotiate for independence. Even Thatcher accepted that route, and her successor Major made the point that no nation could be

“held irrevocably in a union against its will”.

How do we express that will?

[Christine Jardine]

Although we would all agree that no nation can be held in a union against its will, the expressed will of the Scottish people was that they would stay within the Union.

[Martyn Day]

As I have said a few times, circumstances change. The 2016 election gave a mandate. That was reinforced by a vote in the Scottish Parliament—I hope that everybody respects parliamentary sovereignty—and further reinforced by the election of 35 SNP MPs to this House earlier this year.

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[Martyn Day]

I think the hon. Gentleman has probably answered his own question. It was the First Minister’s survey, not my survey, and I do not have the answers. If I did, I am sure I could have found hundreds of quotes to support the argument I am making and kept the debate going for the rest of the sitting, but I want to make progress and allow other Members to get in.

I made the point that we have the right—or we should have the right—to make the decision, established by our principle of sovereignty of the people. How best can we achieve that when the time is right? I look back to the 2014 referendum, in which I played a large part for more than two and a half years. That referendum was praised by the Electoral Commission as setting the gold standard for civic engagement and participation. The commission went on to note that

“The Scottish independence referendum was well run, with high levels of voter satisfaction in the voting process.”

It added:

“The atmosphere in polling places was reported by police, staff and observers to be good natured throughout the day.”

That was certainly my experience in the north of West Lothian, where I was campaigning on the day. While people had differing opinions, there was a good-natured democratic outpouring, and we still benefit from that today, as it is still there in civic engagement across society.

The commentator Iain Macwhirter described the 2014 referendum as being

“like the velvet revolutions in eastern Europe, Scotland’s national movement was non-sectarian, peaceful and rigorously democratic.”

That sums up my experience in Linlithgow, in the north of West Lothian, working with many people from different political parties.

[Christine Jardine]

While I fully accept that that was the hon. Gentleman’s experience, it was not the experience of a whole lot of us, who found the referendum divisive and damaging. There are still families who do not speak to one another. Perhaps his experience is not universal.

[Martyn Day]

There is clearly an attempt to rewrite history: the word “democratic” has been erased and replaced with “divisive”. It was democratic and it was empowering. That is the message that we have to take forward, and that is what any future referendum has to be as well.

I have no doubt that that was achieved as a result of the consensus that stemmed from the Edinburgh agreement and the securing of the section 30 order: a democratic and consensual approach to politics between Scotland’s two Governments. In that, a clear route map has been established for how a referendum can be best carried out in future.

The reasons for independence are important. Much of what I have spoken about has been on process, but I hope that, as the debate continues with other speakers, we will get on to “why?” Let me give my own tuppence-worth. It will be no surprise to people that I often wear a “yes” badge—I am proud about my involvement in that—but the reasons are more important than just about being in or out of Europe, although that is important at the moment. I hope that Scotland can become a fairer and more equal society. That requires us to have the full levers of power to make Scotland a more successful country. Now, 70% of tax and 85% of welfare powers remain in the control of Westminster; the Scottish Parliament has no say over immigration, and it is powerless to prevent the Trident weapons of mass destruction sitting a few miles from our largest city. We need an alternative to the economics of austerity, where our Scottish Government are not restricted to merely mitigating some of the worst aspects of Westminster.

Independence—this is worth saying again from a democratic point of view and as a lifelong SNP member—is about more than the SNP. Scotland now has a multiplicity of pro-independence groups, with a broad home-rule movement pushing the case for independence. No amount of huffing or puffing in Westminster will decide whether Scotland is to become independent or not. Indeed, it will not even be decided by who shouts the loudest back in Scotland. It will be decided by the Scottish people, and at a time of their choosing.

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[Christine Jardine (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

I value as least as much as everyone else in this room the right to petition Parliament and hold debates such as this as an important aspect of our democracy. Similarly, while I disagree vehemently with independence and the call for a second referendum, I respect the right of all those who make that argument. However, like the vast majority of people in Scotland, I am becoming somewhat frustrated with the SNP’s inability to listen to what they are being told.

We have heard that the petition opposing a second referendum has 221,000 signatures. In my constituency, the petition saying there should be a second referendum had 572 signatures. The number of signatures on the petition saying, “Please, no. We don’t want another one,” was 4,474. There is a clear mandate to all of us: the people of Scotland do not want another referendum. They are heartily sick of this continuous constitutional argument that is stultifying Scottish politics.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

I thought the Liberal Democrats were for a second referendum. Is it not the case that the Liberal Democrats want another referendum on leaving the European Union? When the Scottish people observe that contradictory position, what do they think?

[Christine Jardine]

When they observed what the hon. Gentleman calls a contradictory position, they voted for us and voted his party’s MPs out at the election. If we look at the figures, we see that 37% of the electorate in Scotland voted for the Scottish National party and 62.5% voted for Unionist parties, including the Liberal Democrats. As has been mentioned, the SNP gave us a wonderful White Paper that set out exactly what the case was. That is very different from a big red bus with some numbers on it and people not knowing what they are voting for.

[Pete Wishart]

You are for a second referendum.

[Christine Jardine]

No, I am for a first referendum on the actual deal, which is a very different thing.

The constitutional debate in Scotland is all we have heard since 2011. We have heard about the division in families and the ended friendships. It has dominated a political period in which we would be far better off addressing the problems that beset Scottish education, health provision and general infrastructure. Do not take my word for it: there is clear evidence in the figures before us. We have heard about the plebiscites and the polls over the past few years, which consistently put no to a second referendum well ahead.

[Douglas Chapman (Dunfermline and West Fife) (SNP)]

The hon. Lady has talked exclusively and quite widely about the mandate. Will she accept that the mandate that was given not only to the SNP in the 2016 election but within the Scottish Parliament is a mandate of real value for taking forward an independence referendum, or can we just drop the “Democrats” part from her party’s title?

[Christine Jardine]

If we look at what happened in 2016, we see that fewer people voted for the SNP, and fewer people voted for the SNP this year. The clear mandate is that people are getting bored listening to the SNP talking about a second referendum, so enough! We have heard all the figures. There is now no reason, no will and, many people would argue, no need for a second referendum.

Since the Smith commission and the latest tranche of powers—remarkably, that seems to slip the mind of the SNP at any given opportunity when it tells us about the rosy picture that it is creating in Scotland and ignores the shortage of teachers, the lack of GPs and the closing of GP practices—the Scottish Parliament now has both power and responsibility. The Scottish Government run the health and education systems, justice and social care, and have responsibility for agriculture, fisheries, environment and more. They can raise taxes and, since September of last year, can introduce their own welfare benefits or vary the UK system to the specific needs of Scotland. To those of us campaigning on state pension inequality, it is very frustrating to hear the SNP argue against it at Westminster but do nothing to help at Holyrood.

I can hear SNP colleagues saying, “Oh yes, but we are being dragged out of the EU.” Believe me: I regret that as much as any of them, but I regret it for all of the UK. I regret it for my neighbours in England as much as I do for my friends in Scotland, and I find it both frustrating and self-contradicting that although the SNP is happy to be part of the European single market, it rejects outright the idea of a single UK economic and political unit to maintain, as much as possible, our economic strength post Brexit.

What is the alternative? There is none. Every possibility has been either exhausted or rejected by the many people who did, in the immediate aftermath of the disastrous Brexit result, wonder whether there might possibly be some way for Scotland to stay in. I notice that even the Scottish Government’s initiative to find a way seems to have fallen off the radar.

In conclusion, I say: enough. Let us get back to trying to build a better country and focus on the problems that need solving and the people who need support. As a Liberal Democrat, I stand with the majority of the people in Scotland, who clearly voted for a Scotland that is at the heart of the UK, and a UK at the heart of Europe, and will continue to work for both of them, as my electorate made clear I should. It is time for a change. We want a country that is open, tolerant and united, and that is why more people are rejecting the petty griping of the SNP.

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[Alan Brown]

Quite simply, Better Together put out campaign literature that said, “How to secure membership of the EU: vote no”. That is what the campaign was.

There is the sheer, rank hypocrisy of those who campaigned using that as a tactic, and then actually campaigned to leave the EU. I am looking at quite a few of the Members on the Conservative side who did that—all except for the hon. Member for Angus (Kirstene Hair), who found the EU referendum too difficult to vote in. She must be glad that the Tory Whips down here reckon that abstention is the best way forward on many Opposition votes.

I appreciate that Scotland being dragged out of the EU against its will has not yet caught the fire of the general populous as a reason to hold an immediate referendum; however, surveys have shown that people would like a referendum when the impact and effects of Brexit are fully understand. There is a will to have another referendum, not right now, but sometime in the future.

[Christine Jardine]

Surely that is more about the impact of leaving the EU than it is about the impact of leaving the UK. If people want a referendum when the impact of Brexit is known, that is not about leaving the UK, but about leaving Europe. That is a different issue.

[Alan Brown]

I think the hon. Lady is conflating her confused position, where the Lib Dems are arguing no to a Scottish referendum but yes to another referendum on the EU. The people that engaged in those surveys actually understood what the question was: would they like to see a future Scottish referendum? They said that they would rather see that once they have understood the impact of the UK leaving the EU, as that will then give them an alternative option.

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[Alan Brown]

There is the difference of opinion: 62% of the voters in Scotland voted to remain in the EU; 71% of the electorate in Scotland voted against the Scottish Conservative party.

[Christine Jardine]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Alan Brown]

I was finishing addressing the previous point, but yes I will now give way.

[Christine Jardine]

The hon. Gentleman makes much of the 62%, but 62% of the electorate in the last general election voted for pro-UK parties. Only 36% voted for the nationalists. Does that not tell him that perhaps people favour the Union?