Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Chris Vince and Ben Spencer

Committee stage
Thursday 5th February 2026 Public Bill Committees

[Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)]

I seek some clarification on the shadow Minister’s statistics about the number of MSPs that are in scope, and what they are as a proportion of the MSPs in the country. Could he clarify that he is talking about individual organisations rather than what they do? For example, if there is one large organisation and nine small ones, but the large one takes up 80% of the market, the proportions are slightly different.

[Dr Spencer]

The scope and breadth of the organisations regulated by these provisions is one of the most important parts of the debate. If the hon. Member can wait a moment, that point will form the bulk of my speech. It was also mentioned by my constituency neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne.

The previous Government consulted on bringing MSPs within scope of regulation. Feedback on that consultation indicated strong support, with 86% of respondents in favour. As such, there is a sound policy rationale for imposing cyber-security and instant reporting regulations on MSPs over a certain threshold. Those MSPs will need to take appropriate and proportionate measures to manage risks to the security of the networks and information systems on which they rely to provide managed services in the UK.

However, as I said at the outset and as many people said during evidence, the devil really is in the detail as to whether the Bill is effective in protecting the sectors it seeks to regulate. Several industry stakeholders, including officers of MSPs and industry representation bodies, have raised concerns about the broad definition of MSPs in clause 9. As drafted, that definition has the potential to cause confusion among businesses as to whether they are in scope or not. These relevant provisions will be brought into force with secondary legislation before Royal Assent, allowing time for consultation with industry and specific duties. Could the Minister clarify whether his Department will respond to concerns by consulting on a refined definition of what constitutes an MSP, to provide much-needed certainty to businesses operating in the sector?

I will also take this opportunity to speak to amendment 10, which was tabled in the names of many Members, including the right hon. Member for Stone, Great Wyrley and Penkridge (Sir Gavin Williamson), who I know has a keen interest in this area. He represents an area in the west midlands, which, like many parts of the country, has suffered massively from the impact of the problems with Jaguar Land Rover. The amendment relates to legitimate concerns about the compound risk that could occur when MSP systems are accessed by malicious actors, and those MSPs are providing services to a large number of entities within a regulated sector. Clearly, there are many reservations about the desirability of this particular amendment, including its potential to interfere with customer choice and the inconsistency with the approach to freedom of enterprise in other regulated sectors in the Bill.

It is noteworthy that several witnesses who gave evidence to the Committee pointed out the lack of skilled cyber-security professionals available in the UK employment market to help regulated entities with the effective implementation of the Bill. It is conceivable that many regulated businesses, particularly smaller ones, will be forced to look for external expertise to comply with their obligations, and we would not want to artificially restrict access to expertise, even when done with the best of intentions. The point is rightly made that large MSPs and those providing services to the most critical sectors should observe the highest cyber-security standards. A relevant MSP must have regard to any relevant guidance issued by the Information Commissioner when carrying out the duties imposed on it, so will the Minister confirm whether and to what extent the important issues raised by the amendment will be covered in consultation and industry guidance?

The amendment, and some of the debate that we have had, goes to the heart of some of the thresholds and metrics that are being used as gatekeepers in the Bill when an entity is or is not being regulated. As I mentioned this morning, at least 70% of Government cloud procurement goes to the three big US tech actors. Those are clearly huge operators, but when it comes to the criticality of an MSP, as my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne mentioned, size does not in itself necessarily indicate its essentialness in the system.

One can imagine that if a particular unique type of service was being offered, such as a cyber-security service, by a big company—Cloudflare and Salesforce, for example, had a substantial impact on the sector—not merely the size of an organisation, but what they provide, could be relevant in terms of producing systemic risks to our economy as a whole.

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[Dr Spencer]

I thank my hon. Friend for that pertinent intervention. The burden she talks about is not just financial; companies could also find themselves in legal jeopardy should they become subject to overlapping and competing duties without realising when the Bill becomes an Act. More than anything else—perhaps even more than a low taxation regime—businesses want certainty about the regulatory environment they operate in. This is made even more complicated by the fact that many organisations operate in different jurisdictions and have to contend with different, competing regulatory frameworks. My understanding is that the majority try to take an approach in one jurisdiction that will also cover them in the other so that they have an overlap, but those are the big companies. They have more capacity and resource to do that. The problem will be for the companies on the margins that are struggling.

[Chris Vince]

The shadow Minister is always very generous with his time. This is not meant to be a controversial intervention, but does he recognise that micro and small enterprises have been omitted from this legislation because we recognise the challenges they have with the guidance? I appreciate that small can mean mighty when it comes to businesses. The hon. Member for Spelthorne made the point that businesses may have only a small headcount, but a very important role in the cyber-security make-up of this country.

[Dr Spencer]

Irrespective of their size, whatever definition or metric we use, businesses operate on fine margins for the majority of the time. Regulatory burdens not only impact their ability to operate; they are yet another cost, which means that the cost of services increases. That has a deleterious effect on our economy more generally. Burdens on businesses are passed on to consumers. That makes it more expensive to do business unless there are customers to receive it.

Global business competitiveness, which we have not spoken about yet, is critical. I am very concerned about UK competitiveness in the digital and tech sector. It saddens me to say that we are dwarfed by US big tech in many areas. I want our digital and IT sector to be bigger and better than that of our competitors, but we need a framework to support it. Even for bigger businesses, the regulatory burden is critical, especially as they can choose, to a certain extent, where they incorporate and focus on doing business. We want to ensure that the UK has the best regulations, but the best regulations are often the ones that are least burdensome but that still provide certainty to allow businesses to operate. This is a highly competitive market.

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[Dr Spencer]

My hon. Friend has figured out what I am going to say in a moment, when it comes to the scoping of the regulator and that communication process. Such is the depth of the rabbit hole that the provision creates that, even though my hon. Friend’s intervention did not go where I thought she was going, another problem has just come to mind.

What happens in the circumstance where a critical supplier that acts as a proxy for multiple critical suppliers? How does designation operate in that fashion? There are suppliers that essentially operate as a marketplace to a certain provision of services. Is it the marketplace that is regulated, or is it each supplier within the marketplace? A locum agency could hypothetically be an umbrella company for multiple different smaller locum agencies, each of which would share the corporate risk as part of that.

Going back to my first point, the idea that access to the IT network or system will somehow be discriminatory, or dichotomise between people who are in scope of this measure and people who are not, seems to me complete nonsense. It is difficult to see what organisations, if they provide a service to a modern OES, will be in scope of it.

Secondly, there is systemic or significant disruption. I often say that, if someone wanted to cripple a hospital, the best way to do that would be to stop the cleaners cleaning rooms, and to stop the porters pushing people around the hospital to get them to their appointments and moving beds. There is often a focus on doctors and on the rest of the core medical and nursing staff— I myself often focus perhaps a bit too much on doctors—but it really is a whole-team effort. In fact, the most critical people are often the people who might not be the subject of the most focus, such as the cleaners and porters.

If the cleaners stop work or do not turn up to work, the hospital grinds to a halt. If taxis are not taking people to and from hospital out of hours, or if the patient transport is not taking people to hospital, out-patient departments grind to a halt. If the locum companies that fill gaps in staff rotas are not available to do that, and there are substantial rota gaps that make the provision of services unsafe, the hospital also grinds to a halt. If it is not possible to get access to critical medicines, if staff cannot maintain the blood gas machine or the blood pressure machine, or if the boiler breaks down, the hospital grinds to a halt.

It is not just something as obvious as the tragic situation with blood and pathology testing that causes a hospital to grind to a halt. Indeed, I cannot think of many private sector provisions that would not have a substantial impact on a hospital if they were to be removed; if any other Member can, I will be very happy to stand corrected. However, just skimming through them, I can see that the removal of most of them would cause the hospital to grind to a halt. The idea that the significant impact definition will be a discriminatory factor regarding suppliers just does not work. Someone might say: “Ben, you’re completely wrong. We found some providers.”, but, if that situation arises, how will the arbitration occur in terms of the threshold?

[Chris Vince]

I am not going to tell the hon. Gentleman that he is completely wrong—he should not worry about that. I will make another point. I wonder whether the distinction might be how time-sensitive losing a particular service would be. That is just a suggestion.

[Dr Spencer]

I thank the hon. Member so much for that intervention about the time it would take to find an alternative supplier, because it will bring me on nicely to my point about alternative suppliers.

However, before I move on to that point, the hon. Gentleman made a very good point in his intervention, which I will address. To be subject to these provisions will create a regulatory burden, and therefore a cost burden, for an organisation that is designated to be a national critical supplier. If I was a supplier of services, I would want to have the best provision possible. I would want to be cyber-secure; I would want to have a gold-standard service. However, I might also be nervous of being designated as a critical supplier because of the regulatory burden that would impose on me, which would make me potentially less competitive in getting contracts because of the costs that would ensue. There would need to be an arbitration system where a company that is under threat of being designated a critical supplier could have a discussion or debate about whether that designation was relevant or not.

I will now move on to the point that the hon. Gentleman made about alternative services. I really have no idea at all how we can expect a regulator to delve into the complexities and the minutiae of what is available in a local economy to provide these services that the OES is receiving. Do we expect the relevant regulator to check what taxi services are available—actually available, rather than some sort of fantasy availability where they are available on paper, but not in reality—in the local ecosystem that could supply to that hospital, which is the operator of essential services? What is the scope of research that the regulator would have to do? What considerations would they need to take regarding how much the taxis cost and how effective they are? What about the procurement decisions and processes that have already been gone through?

Most public sector organisations have complex procurement rules when setting up their contracts—and that is before we even begin to consider health and safety concerns that are subject to regulatory provisions. For example, if the regulator decided that taxi services are under threat of becoming a critical supplier, then does the taxi service have the ability to deal with someone who has a cardiac arrest, needs oxygen or has a behavioural disturbance? Can it manage people with physical or mental disabilities? What is the scope of that particular service provision? The experts will be the people who commissioned it in the first place; yet on the face of the Bill there is no objective requirement for the regulator to speak to the OES in the first place about how this provision and service was procured.

In terms of the service being available—as per the point made by the hon. Member for Harlow about the time to shift through—how will that be evidenced and investigated? What resource is going into this? That is just for a taxi company. What about when we expand it—and this is just for the NHS—to cleaners, porters, locum agencies or medicines provision? Is the provision of services geographically circumscribed or will this be across the country? I am sure that one can find alternative services to provide taxis to St Thomas’ in Birkenhead, but that does not necessarily mean that it is available in a reasonable timeframe or sense, in terms of the designation of supplier.

Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (Third sitting)

Debate between Chris Vince and Ben Spencer

Committee stage
Thursday 5th February 2026 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Spencer]

I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. I am reminded of the Committee’s evidence session earlier this week, in which expert after expert lined up to raise concerns around the scope of the definition. Although they acknowledged the importance of and appreciated the reasons for leaving some things to secondary legislation in a climate as fast-moving as the IT and digital sector’s, they raised concerns about the uncertainty that is coming for business and the need for extensive consultation so that businesses can feed into and have some degree of influence over the regulations that they will have to abide by.

[Chris Vince]

The hon. Gentleman is making an interesting speech. I recognise his desire to be constructive on the issue. Will he recognise that this is about finding a balance? We want to include some flexibility in the legislation, because of the ever-changing threat that he mentioned. Equally, we recognise the challenge that SMEs may face in complying with the legislation on data sharing, but it is important that they do so, because not complying will have an impact on their business.

[Dr Spencer]

I thank the hon. Member for his point about balance. I am confident that this is an area to which the Committee will return quite a few times in our line-by-line scrutiny of the Bill, particularly clause 12, which relates to the designation of critical suppliers. Clearly the regulations need to be proportionate, but to make that judgment we will need to know exactly what the regulations are. A lot of the detail is not in the Bill and has instead been left to secondary legislation. As we heard from the experts, it is very difficult to scrutinise legislation that is mostly being left to future regulations rather than being set out in the Bill.

These definitions will be critical if businesses are to have clarity as to whether they will fall within scope. I do not want to go too deeply into clause 12 now, but I see it as an exemplar. How are businesses that could fall within the critical supplier designation to know what they need to do? How is the operator of an essential service to know what information it needs to pass to the regulator on businesses that it may end up regulating? It would be very helpful if the Minister could comment, even at this introductory stage, on how he envisages that balance playing out in the Bill, particularly given that so much of the detail has been left to secondary legislation. Anyway, I digress—I will get back on topic.

Businesses are struggling with legal uncertainty and the increased costs of regulatory burden. Regulators in the sector lack the resources, the teeth and sometimes even the will to carry out effective oversight and enforcement of existing cyber regulation. Uncertainty about which incidents should be reported will dramatically increase the burden on regulated entities and on regulators. All the while, institutional barriers to effective oversight and enforcement remain.

The Bill fails to give the legal certainty and the proportionate framework that businesses need if we are to achieve widespread adoption and hardened cyber-resilience across the sectors that are most critical to the economy and our society. Perhaps most critically, there is little point in granting the Secretary of State extensive powers to make directions to regulated entities for national security purposes if the Government remain wilfully blind to the greatest threats to our national security. In the past few weeks, reports have circulated that a Chinese state-affiliated group hacked the communications of top Downing Street officials between 2021 and 2024, yet the vital organs of our state, central Government Departments and agencies carrying out the most critical functions, are left unprotected and unaccountable for their cyber-resilience under the Bill.

If we do not address these problems, we risk the Bill becoming yet another missed opportunity for the Government. These are opportunities that we can ill afford to miss if we are to safeguard our economy and our national security.

Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (Second sitting)

Debate between Chris Vince and Ben Spencer

Committee stage
Tuesday 3rd February 2026 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Ben Spencer (Runnymede and Weybridge) (Con)]

Q38 Thank you for giving your time this afternoon. I have a couple of questions, which I will deal with in one go. The first is for Natalie. Ofcom’s role in cyber-security regulations will be expanded significantly under the Bill. What preparation has Ofcom undertaken to ensure it has sufficient capacity for effective oversight and, where necessary, enforcement in relation to its new regulatory obligations?

My second question is jointly for Ian and Stuart, from the ICO and Ofgem. Some industry stakeholders have expressed concern about low levels of incident reporting and enforcement under the NIS1—network and information systems—regs. How will your respective approaches to regulation change as a result of this Bill, to ensure that it is implemented and that cyber-resilience is improved across the sectors you are responsible for regulating?

Natalie Black: I will kick off. We have some additional responsibilities, building on the NIS requirements, but the data centre aspect of the Bill is quite a substantial increase in responsibilities for us. It is worth emphasising that we see that as a natural evolution of our responsibilities in the sector. Communications infrastructure is evolving incredibly quickly, as you will be well aware, and data centres are the next big focus. In terms of preparations, we are spending this time getting to know the sector and making sure we have the right relationships in place, so that we do not have a standing start. I have done a number of visits, for example, to hear at first hand from industry representatives about their concerns and how they want to work with us.

We are also focusing on skills and recruitment. We already have substantial cyber-security responsibilities in the communications infrastructure sector. We are building on the credibility of the team, but we are focused on making sure we continue to invest in them. About 60% of the team already come from the private sector. We want that to continue going forward, but we are not naive to how challenging it is to recruit in the cyber-security sector. For example, we are working with colleagues from the National Cyber Security Centre, and looking at universities it is accrediting, to see how we can recruit directly using those kinds of opportunities.

Ian Hulme: On incident reporting, the thresholds in the existing regulations mean that levels are very low. Certainly, the reports we see from identity service providers do not meet those thresholds. I anticipate that we will see more incidents reported to us. With our enhanced regulatory powers and the expanded scope of organisations we will be responsible for, I anticipate that our oversight will deepen and we will have more ability to undertake enforcement activity. Certainly from our perspective, we welcome the enhanced reporting requirements.

Stuart Okin: To pick up on the incident side of things, I agree with Ian. The thresholds will change. With the new legislation, any type of incident that could potentially cause an issue will obviously be reported, whereas that does not happen today under the NIS requirements.

On enforcement, in seven years we have used all the enforcement regimes available to us, including penalties, and we will continue to do so. We absolutely welcome the changes in the Bill to simplify the levels and to bring them up, similar to the sectorial powers that we have today.

[Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q I declare an interest. My father-in-law is Professor Robin Bloomfield, a professor of software and system dependability at City St George’s, University of London, and I have a large data centre in my constituency. My question is probably shorter than that. Why is it important to give regulators flexibility to implement guidance for the sectors they cover?

Stuart Okin: In the energy sector, we tend to use operational technology rather than IT systems. That might mean technology without a screen, so an embedded system. It is therefore important to be able to customise our guidance. We do that today. We use the cyber assessment framework as a baseline, and we have a 335-page overlay on our website to explain how that applies to operational technology in our particular space. It is important to be able to customise accordingly; indeed, we have added physical elements to the cyber assessment framework, which is incredibly important. We welcome that flexibility being maintained in the Bill.

Ian Hulme: Just to contrast with colleagues from Ofcom and Ofgem, ICO’s sector is the whole economy, so it is important that we are able to produce guidance that speaks to all the operators in that sector. Because our sector is much bigger, we currently have something like 550 trust service providers registered, and that will grow significantly with the inclusion of managed service providers. So guidance will be really important to set expectations from a regulatory perspective.

Natalie Black: To round this off, at the end of the day we always have to come back to the problem we are trying to solve, which is ensuring cyber-security and resilience. As you will have heard from many others today, cyber is a threat that is always evolving. The idea that we can have a stagnant approach is for the birds. We need to be flexible as regulators. We need to evolve and adapt to the threat, and to the different operators we will engage with over the next couple of years. Collectively, we all appreciate that flexibility.

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[Dr Spencer]

Q Presumably, all suppliers are in some way linked to your IT systems to some degree. I know the NHS sometimes uses faxes still, but we do not live in a world where things are done by paper and pen—it is all integrated into IT systems.

Brian Miller: Sometimes, but sometimes not. I do not think we had any physical links with Synnovis, but it did work on our behalf. Emails might have been going back and forward, so although there were no physical connections, it was still important in terms of business email compromise and stuff like that—there was a kind of ancillary risk. Again, when things like that come up, we would look at it: do we have connections with a third party, a trusted partner or a local authority? If we do, what information do we send them and what information do we receive?

[Chris Vince]

Q Thank you for joining us remotely from Scotland. I have a question for Stewart about data protection. In my Harlow constituency we have just got a new electronic patient registration scheme; what risks do you see in the increased use of technology like that in the NHS? Does the Bill help to address some of the risks?

Stewart Whyte: Anything that increases or improves our processes in the NHS for a lot of the procured services that we take in, and anything that is going to strengthen the framework between the health board or health service and the suppliers, is welcome for me. One of our problems in the NHS is that the systems we put in are becoming more and more complex. Being able to risk assess them against a particular framework would certainly help from our perspective. A lot of our suppliers, and a lot of our systems and processes, are procured from elsewhere, so we are looking for anything at all within the health service that will improve the process and the links with third party service providers.

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[Dr Spencer]

Q Do you think there is a potential need for guardrails?

Kanishka Narayan: I think the guardrails in the Bill are very important, absolutely. The Bill provides that, where there is an impact on organisations or regulators, there is an appropriate requirement for both deep consultation and an affirmative motion of the House. I think that is exactly where it ought to be, and I do not think anything short of that would be acceptable.

[Chris Vince]

Q Thank you for your time, Minister. Listening to the evidence and looking at the Bill, what strikes me is that this is about a balance between the importance of flexibility—particularly given the increase in threat and the complexity of the issues we face—and businesses wanting certainty. Do you feel confident that the Bill strikes that balance, and how have you sought to ensure that it does?

Kanishka Narayan: The primary thing to say is that the range of organisations—commercial ones as well as those from the cyber-security world more generally—coming out to welcome the Bill is testament to the fact that it is deeply needed. I pay tribute to the fact that some of the provisions were engaged on and consulted on by the prior Government, and there is widespread consensus across industry and in the regulatory and enforcement contexts about the necessity and the quality of the Bill. On that front, I feel we are in a good place.

On specific questions, of course, there is debate—we have heard some of that today—but I am very much looking forward to going through clause by clause to explain why the intent of the Bill is reflected in the particular definitions.

Cyber Security and Resilience (Network and Information Systems) Bill (First sitting)

Debate between Chris Vince and Ben Spencer

Committee stage
Tuesday 3rd February 2026 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Ben Spencer (Runnymede and Weybridge) (Con)]

Q Thank you, Jen and David, for coming to give evidence to us morning. Two questions. First, one to you, Jen. Lots of UK corporations have been the subject of recent major cyber-attacks, such as Jaguar Land Rover and M&S. Under the Bill as drafted, these remain outside the scope of the regulation. In your view, what is the best way to mitigate the risk to the economy, jobs and supply chains of further cyber-attacks of that scale to these important out-of-scope businesses? Secondly, and linked to that: Mr Cook, what lessons have you learnt from assisting clients with the implementation of NIS2—the second network and information systems directive—on the need for certainty in legislation? What do you think will be the most challenging areas of business to implement this Bill?

Jen Ellis: There is a thing that you always hear people say in the cyber-security industry which is, “There are no silver bullets”. There is no quick fix or one easy thing, and that definitely applies when looking at policy as well. I cannot give you a nice, easy, pat answer to how we solve the problem of attacks like the ones we saw last year. What I can say is that, looking at the Cyber Security and Resilience Bill specifically, I think it could include companies above a certain size or impact to the UK economy. The Bill currently goes sector by sector— which makes lots of sense, to focus on essential services—but I think we could say there is another bucket where organisations beyond a certain level of impact on the economy would also be covered. That could be something like the FTSE350. Including those might be one way to go about it, but it is worth noting that it would not simply solve the problem because the problem is complex and multi-faceted, and this is just one piece of legislation.

David Cook: With respect to NIS2, that is an example of a whole suite of laws that have come in across the European Union—the Digital Decade law; I think there is something like 10 or 15 of these new laws. They do all sorts of different things, and NIS2 sits within that. NIS2 is the reform of the NIS directive, which is the current state of play in UK law. NIS2 gives certainty and definition, by way of the legislation itself and then the implementing legislation, which means that organisations have had a run-up at the issue and a wholesale governance programme, which takes a number of years, but they know where they are headed, because it is a fixed point in the distance, on the horizon.

The Bill we are talking about today has the same framework as a base. The plan then is that secondary legislation can be used in a much more agile way to introduce changes quickly, in the light of the moving parts within the geopolitical ecosystem outside the walls. For global organisations with governance that spans jurisdictions, a lack of certainty is unhelpful. Understanding where they need to get to often requires a multi-year programme of reform. I can see the benefits of having an agile, flexible system, but organisations—especially global ones, which are the sort within the scope of this Bill—need time to prepare, recruit people, get the skillset in place, and understand where they need to get to. That fixed future point needs to be defined.

[Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)]

Q I feel that I should declare an interest as the MP for Harlow, which has a large data centre within it. My question is about international alignment. Is this legislation in keeping with developments that you are seeing globally?

David Cook: There is reform all over the world. At its core, we have got a European law that is transposed in UK national legislation, the General Data Protection Regulation. That talks about personal data and has been seen as the gold standard all over the world. Different jurisdictions have implemented, not quite a copycat law, but one that looks a lot like the GDPR, so organisations have something that they can target, and then within their territory they are often going to hit a compliance threshold as well. Because of changes in the geopolitical environment, we are seeing—for example in Europe, but also in Australia and the United States—specific laws coming in that look at the supply chain in different sectors and provide for more onerous obligations. We are seeing that in the environment. NIS2 is being transposed into national laws. Organisations take a long time to get to the point of compliance. We are probably behind the curve, but this is not a new concept. Adapting to change within tech and change within how organisations themselves are relying on a supply chain that is more vulnerable and fragile is common.

Taxes

Debate between Chris Vince and Ben Spencer

Wednesday 12th November 2025 Commons Chamber

[Chris Vince (Harlow) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to speak in this debate, and I thank the right hon. Member for Central Devon (Sir Mel Stride) and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury for opening it. As Members will know, I take any opportunity to speak or to intervene, but a couple of weeks ago I missed an opportunity when the right hon. Member for Braintree (Sir James Cleverly) asked whether any Labour Members wanted to lower taxes. I have two excuses for not intervening on that occasion. The first was that I had only just walked into the Chamber, and as my hon. Friend the Member for Calder Valley (Josh Fenton-Glynn) has found, someone cannot intervene if they have only just walked in. The second reason I did not intervene on the right hon. Gentleman was that I have to declare an interest when it comes to tax: I am the son of not one but two of His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs tax inspectors—[Interruption.] I know; I am turning into the Prime Minister and talking about what my parents did for a living. I am also the grandson of an HMRC tax inspector, so I have to declare an interest as I would not be standing here if it were not for tax.

[Dr Ben Spencer]

Tax collection and working for HMRC are important jobs. Obviously the tax collector gets a bad rap in popular culture, but I wish to thank the hon. Gentleman’s parents and family for what they do.

[Chris Vince]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind intervention. I like the fact that, even in a debate about tax in which we have opposing views, we have been able to come to some sort of consensus—my speech has already done its job, one might argue.

The answer that I thought of giving the right hon. Member for Braintree about tax was that I would love residents in Harlow, particularly those in low-income families—23% of under-16s in Harlow live in low-income families—to pay less tax. However, we have seen underfunding in our local services, with the hospital and schools falling apart, and roads that frankly look like the surface of the moon. If we were to live in a low-tax haven—I do not suggest that all Opposition Members say we should—it would lead to those local services suffering, and it is those lower-income families who cannot afford private healthcare, private schools, or to get their car fixed every time they go over a pothole, who would suffer.