Draft Strikes (Minimum Service Levels: Fire and Rescue Services) (England) Regulations 2024

Debate between Chris Philp and Natalie Elphicke

Tuesday 12th March 2024 General Committees

[Chris Philp]

The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that, in the past—about 10 years ago and, again, about 10 years before that—very considerable military assets were deployed in order to provide cover when there was a large-scale fire strike.

[Mrs Natalie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Chris Philp]

I will in just a moment. It is worth saying that the assets that are possessed by the military today are not the same; their number of firefighting appliances is lower than it was 10 or 20 years ago. So, whereas—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mrs Elphicke]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way on this important point. I would like to put on record my thanks, which I feel we all share, for the tremendous work done by the fire and rescue services. In relation to the specific point raised, it may be helpful to the Minister to note that actually three elderly people were reported to have died in the first national firefighters strike—the one that the Minister is referring to—and indeed, more recently, the failure to respond to a call-out in the middle of a strike led to a serious incident that very nearly led to loss of life in Essex. That might be helpful to the Minister, to expand on why it is so important that these measures are put in place to save lives, as well as to protect property, and how we have seen such instances.

[Chris Philp]

I thank my hon. Friend for a characteristically excellent intervention. First, I do, of course, echo and share the tribute that she paid to the brave firefighters up and down the country, who put themselves in the line of danger every day to keep the rest of us safe. I think the whole Committee, on both sides, would echo that sentiment.

The examples that my hon. Friend gave about loss of life during previous fire strikes eloquently and powerfully answer the intervention made by the right hon. Member for Warley. They illustrate that, even when we had far more extensive military firefighting assets available—which we do not any more—none the less, life was still lost. What we are talking about here is ensuring that life and property—because both are important—are protected, even when a strike takes place.

The Committee knows this, but, just for clarity, we are not proposing, of course, to ban strikes. That is not what is being proposed here. We are simply setting out, in this area, as in others, a minimum level of cover that must be provided, even during a strike, to make sure that the public are kept safe and to avoid the tragic fatalities that my hon. Friend the Member for Dover just set out to the Committee a moment ago.

Draft South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority (Election of Mayor and Transfer of Police and Crime Commissioner Functions) Order 2024

Debate between Chris Philp and Natalie Elphicke

Wednesday 6th March 2024 General Committees

[Chris Philp]

There is a hard-edged legal requirement—the breach of which would be unlawful—to spend the Home Office block grant and the money raised by the precept only on police and crime activity. A failure to do that would be unlawful. That is just a black and white legal requirement.

[Mrs Elphicke]

I am somewhat concerned by some of the comments made by colleagues who are most affected. I would be grateful if the Minister explained whether the responsibilities could be delegated to another person in the way that has been described, and if he could say who, in that situation, would make the decision on an increase to the precept.

[Chris Philp]

That brings me to the matter of accountability and blaming the Government, which I was going to mention. When a Mayor exercises police and crime commissioner powers, as Sadiq Khan does in London, they set the element of the precept that funds the police in the same way as a police and crime commissioner. That is a decision for the Mayor when they exercise PCC powers, in the same way that Sadiq Khan—I use that example because I am a London MP—sets the police precept in London. In Kent, of course, it will be Matthew Scott, my hon. Friend’s police and crime commissioner. If this change is agreed, the Mayor of South Yorkshire would set the police precept in South Yorkshire, the money raised from which would be strictly and legally ringfenced to be spent on policing purposes.

Mayors are entitled to appoint a deputy Mayor for policing—Sadiq Khan does that in London—but the Mayor is still ultimately responsible. For example, the Mayor personally sets the precept and exercises the power to hire and fire the chief constable. The Mayor personally exercises a number of powers, and they can appoint a deputy Mayor for policing, as Sadiq Khan has in London—he has appointed Sophie Linden. However, the Mayor ultimately takes the key decisions. The Mayor is accountable at the ballot box, and ultimately the people—the public—can kick out the Mayor if they think they are doing a bad job.

Some slightly contradictory arguments have been advanced about election turnouts. On the one hand, it has been said that the 19% turnout for the PCC election and the 24% turnout for the mayoral election were low. On the other hand, the Committee is being invited to give significant weight to 0.2% in the consultation. Obviously it is internally contradictory to say that 0.2% is significant but 24% is not significant.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Chris Philp and Natalie Elphicke

Monday 8th February 2021 Commons Chamber

[Chris Philp]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. Let me start by paying tribute to the RNLI for the work that it does at sea keeping people safe in what are often very treacherous and difficult circumstances. She is right to outline the work that we need to do to disrupt and prevent these dangerous criminal gangs before they even launch the boats in the first place. The National Crime Agency and many other law enforcement agencies across Europe and beyond are working together to disrupt these criminal gangs. We regularly prosecute people for facilitating these small boat crossings. Last year, we successfully prosecuted 50 or 60 people. There have been several more prosecutions just in the last week, in addition to the law enforcement work we are now doing with the French, doubling the gendarme patrols, for example, which, just in the last few days, has resulted in literally hundreds of people being intercepted before they even set off. So these measures are now working, but we are certainly not going to give up: we will continue working with our French colleagues until these dangerous, illegal and unnecessary crossings are completely stopped.

[Mrs Elphicke [V]]

Will my hon. Friend join me in thanking Kent police and the police and crime commissioner, Matthew Scott, for their important work on this issue of migration and border policing? Can he assure me that, across my whole constituency, in Dover and Deal and at nearby Napier barracks, Kent police are having extra funding for carrying out this vital work?

[Chris Philp]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the work that she has done in consistently standing up for her constituents on this issue, and to Matthew Scott, who does such a fantastic job as Kent’s police and crime commissioner. No doubt he will be triumphantly re-elected shortly. On the question of resources, Kent has had an extra 162 police officers recruited so far and I believe that there are many more to come. Assuming the precept is used, it will have an extra £19.5 million in the next financial year as well. In addition to that, if there are particular issues caused by small boats or, indeed, by the barracks at Napier, it is able to apply to the Home Office for exceptional funding and, if it feels that that is merited, I would certainly encourage it to do that.

Channel Crossings in Small Boats

Debate between Chris Philp and Natalie Elphicke

Wednesday 2nd September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Chris Philp]

There is nothing improper about seeking to police our country’s borders, and this Government will not apologise for doing so.

[Mrs Natalie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

Dover is the national centre for the small boats crossing routes, with more than 5,000 illegal entrants this year and boats arriving day after day on the beaches in my constituency. Does the Minister agree that we can put an end to the small boats crossing routes and that that has three parts: stopping the boats before they leave the French shores, turning around boats when they are in the English channel and sending them back to France and, if people do break into Britain through these illegal routes, making sure they are returned swiftly to France and other countries?

[Chris Philp]

My hon. Friend has been a tireless campaigner and advocate on this issue—I can testify to that as a Home Office Minister—and her analysis is essentially correct. The three strands of work she just outlines are the three we are pursuing. Some will require new techniques to be deployed on the water, which we are trialling at the moment, and some might require legislation, as my right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Sir John Hayes) mentioned a moment ago, and we are prepared to legislate.