Northern Ireland

Debate between Chris Heaton-Harris and William Cash

Thursday 1st February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

As my right hon. Friend may expect, I shall now refer to section 38 and ask him a question about it. On the amendments made under the statutory instrument—which is not by Act of Parliament, of course—the arrangements under section 38 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2020 state that the Parliament of the United Kingdom is sovereign and that its sovereignty subsists notwithstanding section 7A of the 2018 Act, including the Windsor framework. My right hon. Friend will know what I am saying: in practice and in law constitutionally there is the capacity for overriding not only the withdrawal agreement and the protocol but the Windsor framework as a result of what is contained in those words.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I note my hon. Friend’s point. As I said yesterday, I hope he recognises what we are doing in this statutory instrument—making Northern Ireland’s place in the United Kingdom a strong addition to the section. As I said to him yesterday, his original clause has been a big part of the solution to this conundrum. I am grateful to him for it and completely understand the point he has just made and thank him for it.

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[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I could not have put it better myself. The hon. Gentleman is knowledgeable about the subject and has been well involved in the negotiations behind the document and the statutory instruments we are talking about. He is 100% right.

[Sir William Cash]

Does my right hon. Friend, who himself was on the European Scrutiny Committee, recognise that we are constantly monitoring these things? Indeed, the hon. Member for Belfast East (Gavin Robinson) is on that Committee.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I had the pleasure of serving for five years on the European Scrutiny Committee under the wise chairmanship of my hon. Friend, and he is absolutely right. That scrutiny is what this House does best. The Select Committee system is there to scrutinise all aspects of legislation, what the Government do and what comes our way. I know his expertise, having experienced it.

When we were members of the European Union, wading through the hundreds of different explanatory memorandums that came the Committee’s way was quite a job and quite a responsibility. One of the commitments we have made is that we will make sure that information is freely available to Assembly Members in Northern Ireland—when they take their seats—to ensure that they can undertake democratic scrutiny of proposals that might well affect Northern Ireland, so that they have the information they need to use the Stormont brake, should they so choose. Scrutiny is a vital part of all this.

Northern Ireland Executive Formation

Debate between Chris Heaton-Harris and William Cash

Wednesday 31st January 2024 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question; he is absolutely right. I know of his history and the story about his wife, which he has mentioned to me a number of times. I thank him for his interest in all things Northern Ireland and all things Union. In fact, there is a body, the British-Irish Council, that does exactly what he suggests, at the highest level. Hopefully, at the next meeting of the British-Irish Council, the First Minister and Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland will attend with representatives of all the other devolved Administrations of the United Kingdom.

[Sir William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

The proposed legislation is of great constitutional significance, yet it is merely a statutory instrument and not an Act of Parliament. What restrictions on its lawmaking has the EU agreed over the single market in Northern Ireland? What democratic improvements are being made to the Stormont brake in Northern Ireland to ensure divergence, and to enable the United Kingdom Government to remove or veto the imposition of EU laws?

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question. He and I have had a number of discussions over the years on these sorts of matters, and his question is a very wise one. As I mentioned, we are amending section 7A of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018, so there is now a powerful democratic safeguard on the flow of EU law, which a new Assembly will have immediately at its fingertips. I thank my hon. Friend, because I know about the work that he did to ensure that section 38 was included in the Act. I hope he recognises that we are adding Northern Ireland’s place in the United Kingdom, which is a strong addition to section 38 of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2020. Indeed, his original clause has been a big part of the solution to this conundrum, and I am truly grateful to him for it.

European Union (Approvals) Bill [Lords]

Debate between Chris Heaton-Harris and William Cash

Monday 13th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

Fortunately, that is one for the Minister to answer. There are plenty of experts on both sides of this very political argument and one point that I shall continue to make during my speech is that this is a very political matter that should therefore not be funded by taxpayers’ money.

It is interesting to see that the European Commission recognises some of the issues it faces. The preamble continues:

“In order to bring Europe closer to its citizens and to enable them to participate fully in the construction of an ever closer Union, a variety of actions and coordinated efforts through transnational and Union level activities are required.”

In other words, the solution to some of the issues we face today is not less Europe but, according to the European Commission, more Europe, and to ensure that people think that way the Commission will pay for a bunch of projects to try to tell them that that is the case.

Article 1 of the draft regulation states that the general objectives of the programme are

“to contribute to citizens’ understanding of the Union, its history and diversity”

and

“to foster European citizenship and to improve conditions for civic and democratic participation at Union level.”

I am pretty sure that that is a reference to the European elections, which is slightly concerning. That, together with the preamble, suggests that the programme is aimed at lauding the European Union as a political project with, as I will demonstrate, many a federalist overtone. That is reinforced by the fact that article 6 of the proposal states that the programme is open to

“stakeholders promoting European citizenship and integration”.

In other words, one can apply for money from the programme only if one believes in one side of the political argument.

I heard what the Minister said about the collaboration element of the project. Like everyone else in the House, I support any attempt realistically to encourage the commemoration and remembrance of important events in the history of Europe, volunteering, or participation in the democratic process, where there is genuine enthusiasm for it, but I am greatly concerned about trying to force one particular political viewpoint down peoples’ throats.

[Mr Cash]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the idea that the Bruges Group, or the European Foundation, of which I have long been the chairman, could, if we wanted to—I do not think that we would want to—successfully apply for any of this financial support is simply pie in the sky?

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I am sure that my right hon. Friend—is he right hon. yet?

[Mr Cash]

No.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

My soon-to-be right hon. Friend’s organisation could benefit from funding, if it changed its basic principle on belief in the European project, but he is a very principled gentleman and would not do that, so no is the simple answer; there would be no access to EU funding for those groups.

I am supportive of trying to encourage the things I mentioned, but I do not believe that that is best achieved by a European Union spending programme that has its decision making centralised in the European Commission, and in which everything is tied to a supportive view of European Union political integration. The draft regulation’s preamble even asserts that there is a link between remembrance and European identity; I struggle to see that link.

The Government’s support for the regulation calls a number of points into question. It sits uneasily—does it not?—with the Prime Minister’s speech on Europe on 23 January last year, which made it clear that Britain has no desire for ever closer union with other EU countries in any political sense. The Prime Minister also said:

“There is not, in my view, a single European demos.

It is national parliaments”—

not EU institutions—

“which are, and…remain, the true source of real democratic legitimacy and accountability in the EU.”

The regulation, which we might be asked to vote for, would establish a political programme, which we would fund, with exactly the opposite ethos. How can that be?

Moreover, the regulation states that the programme would have a budget of €185.5 million, which, according to the Google currency converter last night, is about £156.5 million over the multi-annual financial framework period. The Government have estimated that the UK will meet about 11.5% of the cost of the multi-annual financial framework, after the rebate is applied. That means that the UK may end up paying roughly £18 million for the programme, over its course. The shadow Minister said that we expect to receive about £7 million back. That is not a bad return on European money—normally, we pay in a fiver and get £2 back—but the money comes back to us with caveats on how it should be spent, and who it should be spent on. I understand the Minister’s point about the general budget envelope, but there are better ways that we could spend the money; we could spend it on much more worthy projects in the UK, without the involvement of a middleman with sticky fingers in Brussels.

The House might be interested to know how much money was spent on the previous Europe for Citizens programme, which ran from 2007 to 2013. Most of this information comes from budget questions relating to 2013, because it is best to have the most up-to-date information, and from a compendium of summaries of reports submitted last year under strand 1 of the programme, produced by the European Commission agency responsible for selecting projects, the Education, Audiovisual and Culture Executive Agency. As I mentioned, I have followed this issue for quite some time.

Let us start with a nice, friendly organisation, the Transeuropa citizens festival, an annual festival that, in 2013, took place in October in various cities simultaneously. Page 4 of the Commission’s compendium says that it took place in nine cities, but the festival’s website claims that it took place in 13: London, Paris, Berlin, Barcelona, Amsterdam, Bologna, Prague, Bratislava, Belgrade, Warsaw, Lublin, Sofia, and Cluj-Napoca in Romania. The compendium’s summary says:

“Transeuropa Citizens Festival is an annual festival of citizenship happening across Europe. For the European Year of Citizens it will take place in 9 cities simultaneously in October 2013 and will celebrate free movement. The festival promotes active citizenship: it is made by and for citizens from throughout Europe (particularly central and eastern Europe). About 300 active citizens”—

I have no idea what they are—

“will meet and work together to make events which promote their vision of Europe to a wider public”,

so it is an interesting festival.

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[Chris Heaton-Harris]

The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) is quite right. I will try to remember to say “European Union”, but if I slip up and say “Europe” by mistake, please add “ean Union” for me.

Notre Europe’s handy charter states:

‘When reflecting on its mission, Notre Europe continues to take its cue from its founding president, Jacques Delors. Besides the masterstrokes the Single European Act and the Maastricht Treaty represent, and their two great attending projects, namely the single market and the economic and monetary Union, European integration owes him one of the most dynamic and inspired periods of its history. A virtuoso in the art of working the Community method and its famous “institutional triangle”, he can rightly join the ranks of Europe’s founding fathers. It is his vision, which Notre Europe aims to grow and perpetuate.’

Let us examine what Notre Europe does and its principles:

“The end goal of European integration, for Notre Europe, is the creation of a political community, beyond market and economic trading. What brings the Europeans together within the Union is therefore, beyond lifestyles, a set of founding political values. The which—freedom, democracy, rule of law, human rights—are enshrined in the treaties and itemised in the Charter of Fundamental Rights in a corpus of human rights which are at the core of integration. These values are not merely declaratory: the European Court of Justice is their ultimate guarantor”.

That last bit is the problem.

[Mr Cash]

In the light of that last point, does my hon. Friend recall that the European Court of Justice has effectively stated that the provisions in the treaty that introduced the Lisbon treaty, which were meant to exempt the charter of fundamental rights, apply in the United Kingdom and that therefore the objectives he has just described would promote the striking down of UK Acts of Parliament?

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I absolutely agree. It is the guarantor bit that causes the real problem in this matter.

Notre Europe also calls for

“substantial improvement to the coordination of economic policies”

as part of building a European “social market economy”. Notre Europe

“insists on the pressing necessity for the Union to become a global and influential actor... It must, in due course have summoned up a defence policy and the joint forces to go with it.”

The charter also states:

“Though healthy emulation may be conceivable, nay desirable, competition between nations is the harbinger of all sorts of conflicts and the very negation of all concepts of political community, not to mention being a brake on the coherence and might of a large integrated economic block. Some types of fiscal and social competition are destructive and must be resisted.”

In other words, the European Union should set tax rates and social and employment law.

Notre Europe, which is funded from the Europe for Citizens budget line, also believes that

“there are domains where Union action is of the essence and where it will have to be increased. The issue of mobility”—

currently a pertinent subject in the UK—

“comes in that scope: a European labour market is needed for those who go from one country to the next, including common rules and protections. Member States must further come to an agreement on a minimum package of social rights to be observed everywhere and at all times.”

Notre Europe also

“champions Jacques Delors’ groundbreaking vision of a Federation of Nation-States.”

It is notable that that phrase was later propounded by the current Commission President, Mr Barroso, in his state of the Union address in 2012.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

The latter part of my hon. Friend’s intervention is exactly right. We have a veto on the matter, so it is up to Parliament to choose whether it wants to exercise it. That is the point of this debate.

Finally—this bit I find particularly galling—Notre Europe’s charter states:

‘The 21st century EU must also have at its command a budget in keeping with its ambitions. It will not be possible… to settle for a ceiling at 1.27% of Member States’ gross national product without abandoning stated goals. It must establish new own resources levied through genuine European taxation, proof perfect of European solidarity beyond the States’ calculations in terms of “return” on their contribution, calculations the philosophical, political and economic basis of which Notre Europe disputes.’

In other words, the funding that Notre Europe receives from that budget line goes to try to get a European tax to fund even more Europe.

Mr Deputy Speaker, I am sure that you, as Chairman of Ways and Means, will be pleased to know that we were fairly generous in 2013, because Notre Europe was awarded €435,500 from the Europe for Citizens budget line. It was awarded €500,000 in 2012, €550,000 in 2011 and €605,000 in 2010. That means that under the last Europe for Citizens programme that organisation was awarded a total of almost €2.1 million.

It also turns out that Notre Europe has been awarded grants for particular projects under the last Europe for Citizens programme—the European Commission likes not only to fund an organisation, but to give it things to do. In 2009 it received €46,400 for a project called “Think Global—Act European”. In 2011 it received €102,500 for a project of the same name. A cursory examination of the European Union’s budgets online shows that that programme received about €2.24 million.

The right hon. Member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber (Mr Kennedy), who has just left the Chamber, would have been pleased to hear my next point. Also benefiting handsomely under the previous Europe for Citizens programme is our old friend the European Movement. Hon. Members might have noticed that we all receive a regular e-mail commenting on British and European political matters from the UK chapter of the European Movement. It claims that it raises its own moneys and that its objective is to

“contribute to the establishment of a united, federal Europe”,

which is a fairly political objective.

Seemingly, however, the European Movement does receive EU moneys. The grants that I am about to list were all given to help the running of European Movement International, which is based in Brussels, rather than for any one specific project. The European Movement received €432,500 in 2013, €430,000 in 2012, and €430,000 in 2010. A little more delving shows that in 2007 it was also awarded €56,360 for a project that is not identified on the relevant list of selected projects but it still got the money. The total receipts for this organisation under the previous programme, the latest version of which the Government want us to recommend to go through, were almost €1.78 million—the best part of £1.5 million.

My final example of egregious spending under the Europe for Citizens programme is the money doled out to the Union of European Federalists. As its name suggests, this organisation is “dedicated to the promotion” of a “federal Europe”. Over the course of the previous programme, the UEF was awarded grants totalling €671,000 to support its existence—again, not to support projects that it runs. It received €121,000 in 2013, €110,000 in 2012, €110,000 in 2011, €110,000 in 2010, €110,000 in 2009, and €110,000 in 2008. It was also awarded grants for particular projects. In 2010—this money was given to the Belgian member organisation of the UEF, the Union of European Federalists Belgium, which is based somewhere in the same location—it was awarded €15,214 for a project called “European issues and citizenship”. We can see a theme running through many of the sums that are given. In 2007, it too received money—€27,670—for an unspecified project. The UEF got so much money during the course of the previous programme that it raised €714,000.

[Mr Cash]

This money is paid by way of grant, out of taxpayers’ money, direct to these organisations. Does my hon. Friend accept that these organisations, including many Eurosceptic organisations, can receive money only out of donations after the tax has been paid on them? The taxpayer is funding all this.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

Absolutely. In fact, the United Kingdom taxpayer is funding all this. That is why I am worried about allowing this measure to progress much further without having the opportunity to amend it to strike out the Europe for Citizens programme completely. As I said, we have the ability, as a Parliament, to do exactly that.

I have written to the Minister regarding my concerns about these moneys being spent in this fashion. At the end of last week I received a reply that is a close-to-desperate attempt to justify such spending, in which he said:

“In negotiating the regulation my officials ensured that the overall bill was cut from €229m in the Commission’s proposal to €185m, as part of the PM’s historic cut to the European budget.”

I am very pleased about that. He continued:

“The programme would cost the UK around €2-3m annually, and we will of course get some of that back in funding to projects in the UK. A recent example is a project called ‘History Speaks’ at the Holocaust Centre in Newark.”

I thought I would have a look at that project because it sounds like a really worthy project that I would want money to be spent on, and it absolutely is—it is fantastic. However, since the financial crash the Holocaust Centre in Newark, like every other organisation that does good work, has struggled financially. In 2007, this memorial and educational trust, founded 14 years ago by non-Jewish brothers Stephen and James Smith, needed to slash its annual budget from £800,000 to £500,000, and its activities such as professional training to spread the word about what the holocaust meant had to be axed so that it could focus its resources on educating the young. The centre deals with over 22,000 primary and secondary school pupils who visit it each year.

If we were really serious about this, we could ask the European Commission to rebalance the Europe for Citizens programme in negotiations. I understand that it is a complex package; indeed, I have been in trialogues between the Commission, the Parliament and the Council where such a complex package has been rebalanced before. Then we could talk about funding worthwhile commemorative projects such as the Holocaust Centre in Newark above and beyond anything we give to political organisations that should be raising their own money and not suckling on the teat of the taxpayer. Surely our Government are also capable of funding worthy remembrance and town-twinning projects. As the whole House will know, town-twinning projects do not just involve European Union countries; UK towns and cities are twinned with towns and cities across the world. EU funding is not needed for this, and so we do not need the associated EU federalist propaganda that goes with it, which, as I have proved, is a significant part of the programme.

The UK wields a veto over this draft regulation. I realise that the Government are planning to submit their support for the proposal to the approval of the House of Commons under the terms of the European Union Act 2011; the Minister has confirmed as much. However, I would be delighted if they went back to the Council and insisted on a radical rethink of the matter so that British taxpayers do not end up paying for schemes aimed at furthering a political project with which most of them disagree.

It was fairly obvious that the shadow Minister did not know what was included within these programmes. Nevertheless, as the Labour leadership is trying to engage more sensibly with the British people on European matters and has given a commitment to European Union budgetary restraint, I would like Labour Members to see this as a matter where they could help the Government to take the right course and have UK taxpayers’ money spent in a better way.

The Minister will be relieved to know that I do not intend to push for a vote on Second Reading, although others might do so. However, I will seek at a later stage to remove clause 1(2)(b), which approves the Europe for Citizens programme for the period 2014 to 2020. The Government’s programme motion provides that the Bill’s next stage will be taken in Committee of the whole House, and I look forward to that debate.

European Union (Approvals) Bill [Lords]

Debate between Chris Heaton-Harris and William Cash

Monday 4th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Cash]

I did not say that. What I said was that the referendum that the Prime Minister has announced goes outside the provisions of the 2011 Act, and I am glad to say that that demonstrates that, where there is fundamental change, he recognises—with some help from his friends— that a referendum is a requirement, even though it is not taking place as early as some of us would like.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I thank my right hon. Friend—

[Mr Cash]

Not yet.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

He is not yet a right hon. Gentleman, but he might be soon. I thank him for giving way. Does he recognise that, while the 2011 Act was designed to stop powers being sucked away from the UK at the request of the European Union but without much say from this place, the Prime Minister’s referendum is about a new settlement that may require powers to be returned from the EU, so they are slightly different things?

[Mr Cash]

That is true, but I maintain that the key question is whether the requirements contained in the five principles, which include repatriation and the primacy of national Parliaments—on which the European Scrutiny Committee has insisted on a three-hour debate on the Floor of the House because of the implications for economic governance—are all part and parcel of what has been going wrong in the European Union. I welcome the idea of the referendum, but with the caveat that I do not think the timing is right, although that is a separate question.

Turning to article 352 of the treaty for the functioning of the European Union, my hon. Friend made an excellent speech, as did my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) and the hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins). They are all on the European Scrutiny Committee and very familiar with the intricacies of the arguments, although they are not that intricate. In fact, the provisions of article 352 derive, in effect, from article 308. I have now served on the ESC for 27 years, and those who have been around for as long as I have—

Draft European Union Budget

Debate between Chris Heaton-Harris and William Cash

Thursday 12th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

To illustrate exactly that point, I shall quote the reasons Greenpeace gives for not taking money from governmental institutions:

“Greenpeace does not solicit or accept funding from governments, corporations or political parties. Greenpeace neither seeks nor accepts donations that could compromise its independence, aims, objectives or integrity… Greenpeace relies on the voluntary donations of individual supporters, and on grant support from foundations.”

I take EU lobbying by Greenpeace way more seriously, because it comes from the heart and not from an EU budget line.

My next example is the LIFE+ programme budget line, which funds, among other groups, Avalon, which co-ordinates activities and lobbies on behalf of sustainable rural development in central and eastern European regions; BirdLife Europe; CEE Bankwatch; Climate Action Network Europe; Coalition Clean Baltic; Danube Environmental Forum; EUCC Coastal and Marine Union; Eurogroup for Wildlife and Laboratory Animals; EUROPARC; the European Environmental Bureau; European Environmental Citizens Organisation for Standardisation; European Federation for Transport and Environment; European Landowners Association; European Water Association; Federation of Associations for Hunting and Conservation of the EU; FERN; Friends of the Earth Europe, which constantly lobbies hon. Members on all sorts of things; Health and Environment Alliance; International Federation of Organic Agriculture Movements EU group; International Friends of Nature; International Network for Sustainable Energy; Justice and Environment; and the Mediterranean Information Office for Environment, Culture and Sustainable Development. The list goes on. Just one budget line funds all those organisations.

[Mr Cash]

On a broader question, will my hon. Friend consider that if we were to consider a Swiss-style relationship with Europe and negotiate a proportionate drop in our net contributions, we could reduce the amount we pay to no more than £1.3 billion, saving nearly £7 billion? Does he find that an attractive idea?

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

Anything that saves UK taxpayers significant sums of money I deem worthy of further investigation.

There are lots of areas in which the Government, working with others on the Council and Members of the European Parliament, who have an opportunity to amend the budget, can do a lot more, but only if there is a tiny threat that we might not want to increase our contribution at all. We have the reason to do it—the accounts not being signed off—but I urge the Minister to consider the opportunities that present themselves in the coming years. I support the Government in trying to reduce our budgetary contribution. I know that it is unbelievably hard work—I have sat in on these trilogue meetings in Brussels—but it is worth the effort, because we could save the UK taxpayer billions of pounds.

European Union Bill

Debate between Chris Heaton-Harris and William Cash

Monday 11th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

If only the hon. Gentleman’s Front Bench were as wise as he is. I know that he has been campaigning on this issue for a long time, and I thank him for his contribution.

If only those on the hon. Gentleman’s Front Bench could come clean and tell the British what they actually believe on these matters. Do they trust the British people enough to give them a vote on these matters? We are not sure, because up at the other end of the building, where the red Benches are, Labour Members—including Front Benchers—have trooped into the wrong Lobby on these matters on too many occasions. We would very much like to know where Labour Members stand on this. This is the fog of war as far as they are concerned. They want to rattle a few cages and see what comes out, but they certainly do not want to get caught stating any policy. However, these matters are fundamental to the sovereignty of the United Kingdom, and it would have been good to hear something definite from the hon. Member for Caerphilly tonight. Perhaps the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) will help us out later.

[Mr Cash]

In a sense, this whole group of amendments is a con trick and an illusion. The test to be applied in regard to the number of people who vote in an election is a matter on which I spoke very strongly in the AV referendum debate. As my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) said, many of the people who tabled amendments on thresholds were not the slightest bit interested in them at that time. There is therefore an inconsistency of principle involved. What they are promoting, and everything that they have been doing over the past 27 years since I have been on the European Scrutiny Committee, during which time I have had the pleasure of watching their perambulations and machinations, is designed to force us further and further down the route towards European integration. They have advised Governments of all hues on the Maastricht treaty, the European Government, the exchange rate mechanism and the Nice and Amsterdam treaties.

I must have tabled the best part of 1,000 amendments against those treaties over the past 27 years, and with great pleasure. I have devoted, I suppose, almost a political lifetime to opposing every single thing that those noble Lords have put forward. I do not need to specify them individually; all I will say is that I regard them as having conducted a process that has led to the destruction of the European Community and, now, the European Union. One has only to look at what is happening today and to ask who is responsible for what has occurred. It has been a concert party—a concert party involving not only the United Kingdom establishment but, worse still, the European establishment alongside the United Kingdom establishment—that has led to the mess that the European Union is in now. As I said to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister when he came back from the European Council the other day, although we are glad that he felt obliged to deny that we would be involved in the Greek bail-out—having conceded, I am sad to say, that we would be involved in the bail-out of Portugal—he now has the opportunity, as the Prime Minister of this country, to go forward in the national interest and renegotiate the treaties, to get us out of the mess that those noble Lords, individually and collectively, have got us into.

Court of Auditors 2009 Report

Debate between Chris Heaton-Harris and William Cash

Wednesday 2nd February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Cash]

That is the problem. It is easy for us in this House to make scattergun criticisms of bureaucrats, civil servants and the rest of it, but the real problem is that if something does not work, we have to mend it—and there is no evidence of that happening.

I had an exchange with Lord Kinnock when he was responsible for these matters, and set up the new OLAF arrangements. He got a bit shirty with me in a Select Committee some years ago. People like Marta Andreasen were thrown out, and even before then, there was another chap whose name I cannot remember—

[Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con)]

Paul van Buitenen.

[Mr Cash]

Exactly. The trouble is that the moment anyone starts to get to grips with what is going on, the steel shutters come down and people are thrown out of the European institutional arrangements simply for asking questions that would be regarded as completely normal in any proper democratic system. That is the essence of the problem.

As I have said, I could enlarge at great length on the contents of these 1,035 pages, and every word would be entirely relevant because they are so important. Huge sums of taxpayers’ money and resources are being churned into this failing quagmire. This is not just the ranting of a Eurosceptic; it is the reality of what affects the daily lives of the people of this country, and we seem to be prepared to go along with it.

European Union Bill

Debate between Chris Heaton-Harris and William Cash

Wednesday 26th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

Indeed. I know that there is to be a Backbench Business Committee debate on the matter in the not-too-distant future, in which I hope that Members across the House can voice their concerns about that ruling.

I return to the proposal to move one part of the Bill from clause 10 to clause 7. I was speaking about the indirect effects on the United Kingdom that the accession of the EU to the EHCR might have. When the accession takes place, the EU will be able to be taken to the European Court of Human Rights, which will undoubtedly lead to more cases, more cost and impact and, most importantly, more jurisprudence on EU law.

I am seeking not to upgrade the requirement for scrutiny, but to maintain the present level. Furthermore, I am concerned that in clauses 6 and 7, a few article 48(7) ratchet decisions are not caught by the Bill. Such decisions would be those applying to the EU’s ordinary legislative procedure where the EU treaties currently require a special legislative procedure, and the existing special legislative procedure does not require unanimity in the Council. In other words, while a switch in EU legislative procedure would be taking place, it would not involve abolition of a veto because a veto did not exist in the first place. However, the EU’s ordinary legislative procedure entails the European Parliament having co-decision rights with the Council. It can table amendments to a proposed law and veto the Council’s desired law. In general, a switch to the ordinary legislative procedure would take EU decision making further out of the hands of national Governments and give greater power to a supranational institution.

The article 48(7) ratchet clauses not covered by the Bill would confer new co-decision rights on the European Parliament in a few areas of EU law that I shall list now, and many more. Article 23 provides that every EU citizen has the right to diplomatic protection. We had a debate on what that might mean to the individual. I am speaking now about our power to scrutinise such decisions. Article 182(4) allows the Council to adopt, through qualified majority voting, but only after consultation of the European Parliament, specific EU research and development programmes. These must accord with the multi-year EU framework programme for research and development that is decided through the ordinary legislative procedure, but the decision on specific programmes sets their duration, the precise financial contribution by the EU—essentially by us—and the detailed rules for implementation. Furthermore, article 349 provides that the Council can adopt legislative measures on how EU treaties apply to areas known in wonderful EU parlance as the outermost regions. The way in which such specific decisions are dealt with in the Bill would be a retrograde step for democratic control, hence my amendment.

[Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

I rise to support my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) in the arguments that he has adduced. Since the Maastricht treaty, I have been gravely concerned about the operation of co-decision, and that is the best part of 20 years ago. The bottom line is that the situation has become increasingly difficult and unacceptable. The European Parliament, which is not a real Parliament at all—I see the Minister sighing. He cannot understand that the difference in the manner in which the European Parliament is elected, the difference in its procedures, the extent to which it holds Ministers to account, the intrusion of the process of proportional representation and the manner in which that operates, and many other aspects of the institutional difficulties and the democratic deficit that exists in the EU, are all part and parcel of the necessity to retain control in the hands of the national Parliaments. Unfortunately, for all the reasons given by my hon. Friend, for these specific matters there is an extension of this strange creature which used to be called co-decision, but which now, in typical Eurospeak, has become the ordinary legislative procedure. It is not ordinary at all, it is quite extraordinary, and it is not a legislative procedure in the sense in which we are legislating in this House.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Cash]

I shall discuss my earlier point about EU accession to the ECHR in the context of the broad view that you, Mr Caton, have taken about the necessity to get some of these issues out in the open. I shall also refer to the document that I cited in my intervention on the Minister, because we discussed it in the European Scrutiny Committee today. The document is a Council decision, the object of which is to authorise the European Commission to start negotiations with the Council of Europe on the EU’s accession to the European convention on human rights. Our Committee reached the stage of a first report.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I very much apologise for not being at the European Scrutiny Committee meeting, but I was getting ready for this session. Government Members are giving the Bill the appropriate amount of scrutiny, but, looking at the Opposition Benches, I wonder whether anybody on that side cares.

[Mr Cash]

I could not agree more. My hon. Friend is right, and I am glad that the Minister also nods in agreement, because the accession is hugely important. I understand entirely that the Minister has a view about it. He has also heard the very good arguments that my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Chris Heaton-Harris) has made on the specific questions that arise. The Minister knows that it is a contentious issue, not least because we are also dealing with the interaction of the European convention on human rights, which came up in the statement on terrorism only an hour or so ago in this very House, and the crucial balance between security and freedom. We do not need to discuss control orders and counter-terrorism now, but I simply make the point that an enormous body of law could be affected by this.

The shadow Minister for Europe, the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr David), is attentive, was a member of the European Scrutiny Committee and is taking an interest in the debate. Of course, he has to be here, but I think that he would be here anyway. I find it strange that the Chamber is almost completely empty when we are considering these incredibly important issues, and it would be interesting to know whether there is any reason why. I am glad to welcome my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips), who also has great knowledge of these matters. I hope that he will contribute to the debate, because we have just discussed this point in the European Scrutiny Committee, so it is an opportune moment for us to look at the principles involved.

The Government support accession by the EU to the ECHR, as the Minister indicates. I am sorry that we got a little tetchy, but he gave me the impression that he wanted to move on from the subject fairly quickly, and I understand the necessity to move on to later amendments. Our entire proceedings, despite some considerable reservations on the one hand and downright hostility on the other, have been conducted in a civilised manner and in accordance with what I hope debates in this House should consist of, but we need to take a good look at what the provision implies, and this clause stand part debate gives us the opportunity to do so.

According to the Secretary of State for Justice and Lord Chancellor, accession will close the gap in human rights protection as applicants will for the first time be able to bring a complaint before the European Court of Human Rights directly against the European Union and its institutions for alleged violations of ECHR rights. It will enable the European Union to defend itself directly before the European Court of Human Rights in matters where EU law or actions of the EU have been impugned.

The Secretary of State also says that accession will reduce the risk of divergence and ensure consistency between human rights case law between the European Court of Human Rights and the EU’s Court of Justice in Luxembourg. That is very important. Furthermore, he says that the EU will be bound by European Court of Human Rights judgments in cases in which it is a respondent, and like other contracting parties to the ECHR the EU will need to have regard to the Strasbourg jurisprudence.

I have heard the Secretary of State for Justice express views, albeit in other circumstances, in which he has raised concerns about the extent to which the judiciary is impinging on the sovereignty of this House, and I take him at his word. If he believes that, he might also consider that the EU will have to have regard to Strasbourg jurisdiction. Sovereignty, which we have debated at some length in relation to clause 18, is directly involved in that issue.

I do not need to repeat any arguments that I set out in relation to clause 18, and I have no intention of doing so, but the principle is about the use of jurisprudence from Strasbourg or the European Union Court, the European Court of Justice, and its effect on the legislative process in this House. There is also a constitutional question for the United Kingdom about the manner in which our judiciary is using Strasbourg precedents and importing them to their judgments in our courts. The Lord Chief Justice recently criticised that, because he is worried about the impact of accession on the manner in which we make our decisions and the invasion of common law precedent.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Cash]

Yes, and civil. Let us not get carried away by a few bits of paper and a few words in a Bill. They say that there will be restraint by way of approvals given by the House, but we know the realities. In relation to the opt-in on the investigative order—I think it was on 15 June, shortly after the general election—it can fairly be said that the Minister believed that she had to make that decision because, I think I am right in saying, there was a three-month period within which the decision had to be made. Perhaps there was some justification for the fact that she had to make the decision, but why did she make the decision to opt in? Why did she not make the decision not to opt in? That is my concern.

I plead with hon. Members not to be taken in by the effusions of reservation that emerge in letters, statements and the Bill. Right at the heart of this is the real question of whether we will end up with more Europeanisation of these matters, and the answer, emphatically, is yes.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I am sure that my hon. Friend is aware of the findings of the German federal constitutional court, which protects these matters for that country. In one judgment it said:

“Securing legal peace by the administration of criminal law has always been a central duty of state authority…To what extent and in what areas a polity uses exactly the means of criminal law as an instrument of social control is a fundamental decision. By criminal law, a legal community gives itself a code of conduct that is anchored in its values, whose violation is, according to the shared convictions on law, regarded as so grievous and unacceptable for social existence in the community that it requires punishment.”

It is desperately trying to protects its laws as well.

[Mr Cash]

I am so glad to hear that. I was not precisely aware of that part of the judgment, but my hon. Friend has made an important and helpful comment. The argument is right, and it is by dint of the most awful experience in Germany that it has come to these conclusions over an extended period since 1945. It is vigilant about these matters because it does not want ever again to find itself in circumstances, by virtue of a lack of democracy, when Hitler ran Germany. I have an absolute belief in the democratic instincts and principles of the British people, which have been born out of fighting not only that very Germany, but previous wars, right the way back to at least the 17th century. We have built up a democratic system in which we decide what the legislation should be, and we give it careful consideration. We need some parliamentary reform. We are being given the impression that in relation to these matters we will be able to retain our criminal system, but unfortunately, because of the Whip system and the whole direction of Europeanisation, that will be removed by what will happen in practice. As helpful as all these procedures are in indicating the direction in which they might like to go in certain circumstances, I fear that we will have many opt-ins and that, in practice, the proposed procedures will be applied and the Whips will ensure that the measures go through.

I will give the European investigation order as an example. It is still subject to European scrutiny and there will be a debate on it—I cannot remember when—despite the fact that it was decided on 15 June last year. That is because the European Scrutiny Committee had not been set up by that time, but the rules still applied to that order. There will be a debate on that matter, but when it is debated, which in effect is the same kind of thing that the Minister refers to about parliamentary approval, up to a point, there will no doubt be a take-note motion—I cannot remember the precise motion— before the European Committee. The reality is that not once in the 26 years I have watched these matters has a decision of a European Committee not to take note, following a vote that went against a Minister, not been reversed on the Floor of the House by the use of the Whips. Why should I be confident that—

European Union Bill

Debate between Chris Heaton-Harris and William Cash

Tuesday 25th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Cash]

The investigation order has not yet been debated in the European Committee, as far as I am aware, so we should bear it in mind that although the Minister made a statement—on 15 June, I think—it is none the less still subject to scrutiny.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I thank the Chairman of the European Scrutiny Committee for correcting me. He knows that I am often wrong, so he corrects me quite regularly. I appreciate the help and assistance that he gives me, as a new Member in this place.

In the simplest terms, on the JHA ratchets, the Government have wisely looked at article 86 of the TFEU and have closed down in the Bill many of the policy areas that could be taken up to European level. Article 86 deals with the European public prosecutor, as I think the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma Reynolds) alluded to earlier. However, it does not pay attention in the same way to the justice and home affairs criminal law ratchets, because those are contained in article 83. Is there a reason for that? Essentially, I am seeking from the Minister an idea of how we will deal in this place with matters similar to the European investigation order when the Bill is enacted.

The criminal ratchet clauses are often very important, but some, while important in themselves, would not be as important to the British people on the whole. It would be a very daring move for anybody—a Eurosceptic, a pro-European, or any Minister—to recommend such matters for a referendum. I am quite happy to think that we could deal with this by putting before both Houses of Parliament a motion or Bill that could be amended to include a referendum clause, should the need arise. However, we can do justice and home affairs scrutiny a lot better. Although the written ministerial statement goes some way in that regard, could the Minister give us some real-life examples to explain how such matters will be dealt with in future?

I do not want to detain the Committee further. I have explained the reasons for my amendments on family law—I will not be pressing those to a vote—and on the JHA ratchets, which I hope I will not need to press to a vote. All parties should be able to agree in general terms to better parliamentary scrutiny of justice and home affairs opt-ins—or, indeed, opt-outs. This is the right place for that to be done, and I look forward to the Minister’s comments.

European Union Bill

Debate between Chris Heaton-Harris and William Cash

Monday 24th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I concur with the hon. Lady. Several manoeuvres have taken place under previous Governments to determine who is Minister for Europe. The incumbents do not often stay in the role for long. Either they are, like the current incumbent, sufficiently ambitious to move up the ministerial pay scale, or they could easily be a journeyman on the way out. There is a historical context to some decisions about conferring a competence on an EU agency, and one needs to know what the agency was formed to do in the first place. I perceive such conferral as part of the mission creep in Europe. The European Commission, in establishing so many new agencies on such a regular basis, creates its own quangocracy.

When I was a Member of the European Parliament, it was difficult to police the spending and powers of an agency that the European Commission set up. Indeed, it was more difficult than policing some of the agencies and quangos that Governments of different complexions established in this country. If those agencies grab power and take more competences—even for a valid reason at the time—it is important that the Minister of the day understands the historical reasons for setting up the agencies and the intended limits on the powers. I was present when Eurojust and Euro-magistrate were set up—all part of the European public prosecutor, which I look forward to debating tomorrow, and all part of a significant salami-slicing approach of taking powers away from individual member states, and building something that nobody particularly wanted.

I understand that any ministerial decision on the significance test has a kind of double lock. It has been drawn as narrowly as possible, and I would therefore like the Minister to answer a couple of questions. First, I want to check whether any treaty change will require an Act of Parliament. I should like to think that Parliament will have every opportunity to vote for a referendum on such a change. That is why I support amendment 11. Secondly, the decision on significance is subject to judicial review to ensure that decisions not to hold a referendum only on genuinely insignificant matters are backed.

Those matters are important because, as I said, they are about getting the British people to trust the decisions that we make on Europe again. No member of the public wants decisions to be made behind closed doors, without reasonable explanation. I emphasise strongly to the Minister that the amendments are not about trust in him, his ability to undertake the role or his decisions. I would like clarification that Parliament will have a say because that is what we were sent here to do.

My hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) has tabled some tempting amendments to which the Minister and the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston alluded. In amendment 1, my hon. Friend manages to do a fantastic decapitation job on the Bill that would basically put all changes up for referendum. Although there is validity in my hon. Friend’s reasoning—he has seen through the years a lot more of what goes on in this place than I have—I do not want everything to be decided by a referendum. The British people will not take that. They want Parliament to say, “These are important decisions and there will be a referendum, a debate in both Houses, or an Act and a vote,” and the Bill makes such provisions. We can then choose whether to amend a measure so that it is subject to a referendum because we believe it to be so important. If we think that a subject is insufficiently important, we can decide not to have one. I am tempted by amendment 1, but I am simply unable to support it for those reasons.

I was tempted by amendment 1 because of the accession exemption, which the hon. Member for Caerphilly and a number of hon. Members mentioned. I tabled an amendment on accession to the EU that we will not decide on today, just as we will not decide on many amendments that have been tabled. Amendment 21 is exactly as the hon. Gentleman described it. It would mean that a 3.5% dilution of our voting powers on the European Council triggered a referendum. That is a catch-all—it is completely designed as such—so that we would have a referendum on the accession of big countries.

Given that, amendment 1 all of a sudden comes back into play and I am once again tempted. I would much rather have had a comprehensive and sensible debate on clauses 4 and 5 today or tomorrow or in extra time.

[Mr Cash]

I understand where my hon. Friend is coming from, but there is a difference between significance and the opinion of the Minister on the one hand, and the question of exemption on the other. Clause 4(3) says that certain matters are forbidden territory. I am tempting my hon. Friend by saying that that whole category of exemption should clearly be removed, even if there will be a debate on what is or is not significant.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I understand what my hon. Friend says and I am quite sorely tempted, but my problem, as I described earlier, is the minutiae that might be sucked in under amendment 1.

[Mr Cash]

I understand my hon. Friend’s reasoning, but the specific exemptions are set out in clause 4(4)(a), (b) and (c). I understand that he would not want my proposal to go too far. The British people expect these things, which after all include matters such as Turkey and treaties of the type proposed by the French only the other day, not to be exempted. The British people would be left out and not taken into account on such decisions and treaties, yet they would have the most incredible impact on them. I shall explain that later.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I always appreciate the lessons that my hon. Friend can teach a humble new Back Bencher and member of the European Scrutiny Committee, and I very much look forward to receiving them, but he makes a salient point. This is about what the people who put us here expect. That is why I ask the Minister please to listen to what hon. Members say about the significance clause and amendment 11. The proposal is not against him; it is about enhancing Parliament and its transparency.

European Union Bill

Debate between Chris Heaton-Harris and William Cash

Tuesday 11th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

Thank you for calling me to speak, Sir; I call you “Sir” because I am not sure whether I should call you Mr Deputy Speaker or Mr Evans, given the seat that you are in at the moment.

It is interesting to follow the right hon. Member for Rotherham (Mr MacShane) in a debate such as this. I was a Member of the European Parliament, which is arranged in such a way that the lights get brighter if the debate gets exciting and dimmer if the life goes out of the debate. If we had such a system in the House now, I fear that I would be speaking in complete darkness.

It would be easy to answer a number of the points made by the right hon. Gentleman, but I agree with what he said at the very beginning of his speech. I have tabled a bunch of amendments to the Bill, which deserves tightening up, although there is something in it worth salvaging. However, I looked at clause 18 and thought that it did not mean anything, so it was not worth tabling an amendment to it. It is a declaration.

Does clause 18 put the sovereignty of Parliament in relation to EU law beyond speculation? I do not think so. Does it affirm and confirm that EU law has legal standing in the UK only because Parliament wills it through Acts of Parliament? I am not convinced that it does. Equally, however, I am not convinced that the amendments tabled to clause 18 would add anything to it; they are not anything to get excited about. I do not think that clause 18 is a very good clause, and I am pretty sure that it is not a sovereignty clause. If it has a place anywhere in the Bill, it should be in the preamble. It would be a good place to start—a sort of “This is where we came from”.

I have been following this process through the European Scrutiny Committee, and I have been fascinated by the different sorts of opinion that we can get from academics. In my 10 years as a Member of the European Parliament it was always interesting to get at least three academics in the room to give advice, because people knew that they could then get three completely different opinions and choose the one that they wanted.

I like to call myself a pragmatic Eurosceptic; I am a great believer in dealing with what is on the table and what we can achieve. I would like to think that the Bill will be able to achieve some things when we come to later clauses and amendments, but I just cannot bring myself to get excited about clause 18. I wish that the Government had not called it the delivery of the pledge made in the Conservative party’s election manifesto, because I simply do not believe that it is.

There are many voters across the country who are slightly sceptical about Europe. The hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) has left his seat, but many voters in his constituency will be sceptical about what goes on in the European Union. I do not think that they will feel comforted by the fact that clause 18 is in the Bill. If we vote for the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash), I do not think that they will wake up and think that that has achieved very much. Whether the clause stays as it is or the amendment is accepted, we will still be where we are: nothing will have changed.

I followed the process in the European Scrutiny Committee with great interest because some interesting and eminent people came before us. They often looked at the exciting parts of the Government’s explanatory notes to the Bill, especially the statement:

“This clause has been included in the Bill to address concerns that the doctrine of Parliamentary sovereignty may in the future be eroded by decisions of the courts.”

I assume that that means the British courts, but because it is fairly vague I guess that it could equally mean the European courts. I have written to the Minister for Europe asking for clarification on a number of points about the Bill, but the explanatory notes already say:

“Clause 18 is a declaratory provision which confirms that directly applicable or directly effective EU law only takes effect in the UK as a result of the existence of an Act of Parliament.”

I think that the whole House can concur with that point. The principle of parliamentary sovereignty is that Parliament is free to make or unmake—that is a terrible phrase, but it means to get rid of—any law if it wishes to do so, which will be upheld by the courts. That has been a keystone of the UK constitution for centuries. Nothing in the clause, or indeed in the amendment to the clause, would change that.

We must remember that the British people have a distinct lack of trust in what anybody says on this subject in this place. They do not trust Her Majesty’s Opposition, because although the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Caerphilly (Mr David), may say that the constitutional treaty was very different from the Lisbon treaty, the majority of the public are not fools and they understand that the words were basically the same; in fact, even the order in which they appeared was basically the same. The Lisbon treaty was pretty much the same thing, and we should have had a referendum. Even if the hon. Gentleman disagrees with that point, he must understand that people outside this place feel like that.

I am happy to concur with the people who say, “Let’s be honest about this.” I would like to repeal sections 2 and 3 of the European Communities Act 1972, and I would like to have a proper sovereignty Bill. However, that is not on offer. I am in a coalition Government and lots of compromises have had to be made, some of which I am deeply disappointed about, but all of which I understand, because we are here to sort out the economic mess that the other lot left us. I want to get on with doing that particular job. I cannot get myself excited about all this.

[Mr Cash]

My hon. Friend is making remarks with which I must, unfortunately, disagree. In particular, I do not think that he has quite understood the nature of sovereignty. The United Kingdom Parliament is sovereign only in so far as it is not affected by decisions taken by the courts. Sovereignty is about the rule of law, which pivots between the courts on the one hand and Parliament on the other: we make and they interpret. When they get into the position of seeking, as they now are, through the common law principle and their judicial assertions to erode sovereignty by specific words, they are invading our sovereignty. In amending and eliminating that, as I seek to do, we would revert back to the supremacy that we have always wanted and insisted on.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. However, during my 10 years as a Member of the European Parliament I gained a rough idea of what sovereignty was and how it is viewed by different member states within the European Union. His amendment would have some strength if we had market-tested it on the academic experts who appeared before the European Scrutiny Committee. I truly believe that if we had said, “This is what clause 18 states. What do you think of that?” they would all have said what we have said about the clause, which has been repeated a number of times. If we had asked whether adding this sentence to the clause would protect us in any way, I am pretty sure they would have said, “No, not really. This is all a matter of interpretation for the lawyers. We won’t get anywhere like that.”