Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Debate between Chris Heaton-Harris and Peter Kyle

Consideration of Lords amendments
Tuesday 18th July 2023 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

There you go; we beg to differ.

Finally, through these amendments the term “the relevant day” has been removed from the Bill, so a consequential amendment (a) to Lords amendment 119 in my name simply seeks to remove the power to define the relevant date.

I am very confident that the Government’s legacy Bill provides the framework that will enable the independent commission, established by the Bill, to deliver effective legacy mechanisms for families and victims, whilst complying with our international obligations. When the Bill becomes law the delivery of those mechanisms will be led by Sir Declan Morgan KC, currently chief commissioner-designate of the independent commission. Sir Declan is also an individual of the highest calibre, with a track record of delivery on legacy issues, and I know that he will approach the task with the rigour, integrity and professionalism required.

The challenge before us is immensely difficult, but it is also clear. If we are to place the legacy of the troubles in the rear-view mirror and to help all in society to move forward in a spirit of reconciliation, we must try to do things differently.

[Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)]

The Bill has managed to unite all Northern Ireland parties in opposition to it. The word “reconciliation” may be in its title, but victims say that it is traumatising. Both the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission and the Law Society of Northern Ireland have criticised it. The Labour party has voted against it at every stage. That is because it benefits terrorists more than their victims.

Anyone doubting that should read the BBC front page today, and the story about Louie Johnston, who was just seven years old when his Royal Ulster Constabulary officer father David Johnston was shot by the IRA. Louie has asked MPs to show empathy with his family today and not force through this Bill.

Lords amendment 44 addresses the flaw at the centre of this Bill, by removing the immunity clause. The Government must not put immunity back in. It is not a wrecking amendment, as the independent commission would have a better chance of winning people over without it.

I listened with interest to the Secretary of State’s recent speech to the Institute for Government. He told a story about meeting three RUC widows, and how all three wanted different things in relation to their husband’s death. He said that, if he were a member of the public, he would side with the widow who wanted justice above all else. He suggested that conditional immunity in exchange for information would satisfy two of the three widows, and he said this is progress on legacy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I am afraid I do not have the time.

I wish to close by reiterating that the Government have sought to make a realistic assessment of what we can best deliver for families, over a quarter of a century after the Belfast/Good Friday agreement and nearly 30 years since the first ceasefires and well over 50 years since the troubles began. I recognise that this is challenging for all those involved, but I am prepared to make this difficult decision to try and help Northern Ireland to take a step forward towards reconciliation. This Government will give people the accountability, acknowledgment and information they require to allow Northern Ireland to become a more reconciled society.

It is a matter for regret, though, that the Labour party would rather see veterans and victims treated the same as terrorists. During the Bill’s Second Reading, in May 2022, the hon. Member for Hove said:

“I have been very clear: I want to make sure that the rights of victims and veterans are equal to the rights of terrorists and people who committed crime in the era of the troubles”.—[Official Report, 24 May 2022; Vol. 715, c. 193.]

[Peter Kyle]

The Secretary of State is quoting from a response to an intervention from the right hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith), where I stated categorically, in the full extent of the reply, that the Bill gives more rights to terrorists than victims. That is what the full response says. What he read is out of context.

I would also quickly say to the Secretary of State that I did not mention perjury in my opening speech. Could he address the issues that I did raise in my speech—not the ones I did not?

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I think I might have struck a nerve there. Today the Government will demonstrate that they are committed to getting victims—veterans are victims, as the hon. Gentleman says—the families and survivors answers, when Labour simply—

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Chris Heaton-Harris and Peter Kyle

Wednesday 21st June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

This question is about the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill, which is currently on Report in the House of Lords. I disagree fundamentally with the principle behind what the hon. Gentleman is saying. Yes, none of the political parties in Northern Ireland is behind this particular Bill, but in great fairness to the Democratic Unionist party, it has never been behind any sort of amnesty. That has been a principled position on its part from the Belfast/Good Friday agreement onwards, which I completely understand. I do not think I will ever be able to win that argument with the DUP. However, we do need to address these issues. We have a question later on legacy and a family who need information to allow themselves to reconcile the death of a family member. The Bill that we will present, which will be article 2 compliant—I truly believe that—will get information for a whole host of families who have not had it for well over 25 years.

[Peter Kyle]

I am grateful for the Secretary of State’s detailed answer. There are ways forward that the DUP and other parties have supported, but the Government have chosen a different path. His Department cannot be fully focused on restoring power sharing while it is spending so much precious time on this Bill. Yesterday, even the Irish Government officially requested a pause in the Bill’s passage through Parliament. The Secretary of State says that the Bill will be a different beast after the Lords, so will he consider giving people the time to assess the changes before it returns to this House?

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

This Bill has had a long gestation. It had two days of consideration on the Floor of this House in its original form this time last year. It had one of the longest Committee stages ever in the House of Lords, taking nearly five months to complete. We laid a whole host of amendments as a Government at that point. It has its first day on Report today and another day next Wednesday. This House will have plenty of time to consider those amendments and others when the Bill returns to this place.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Chris Heaton-Harris and Peter Kyle

Wednesday 22nd March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Secretary of State.

[Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker, and may I associate myself with your important words about PC Keith Palmer?

It has been reported that the Police Service of Northern Ireland has requested 330 officers from other UK forces for support during the forthcoming presidential visit by President Biden next month. Can the Secretary of State confirm that his Department will continue to work closely with the PSNI during this challenging period and anticipate any assistance that it might need?

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

We have a number of big visitors coming to Northern Ireland to mark this important anniversary, and I know that the PSNI is remarkably well organised in preparing for this. Of course the Government will happily support the PSNI in its endeavours.

[Peter Kyle]

I am grateful for the Secretary of State’s words. The PSNI will also need support after Air Force One departs. Due to a funding shortfall, officer numbers will soon fall to a record low. In fact, there will be 800 fewer officers than agreed in New Decade, New Approach. Does he think this is fair for a force that faces unique challenges on a daily basis?

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Chris Heaton-Harris and Peter Kyle

2nd reading
Wednesday 22nd February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

With the leave of the House, I would like to reply to the debate. Let me extend my thanks to all those who have contributed. I will answer as many of the points raised as I can. I am always struck by the deep sense of regard and affection for Northern Ireland displayed by right hon. and hon. Members when we have debates on subjects to do with Northern Ireland, and today was no exception. The shadow Secretary of State asked me some sensible questions—

[Peter Kyle]

As always.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

Yes, actually, as always, which is nice for me. We remain committed to all parts of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, as he would expect. He surprised me: I did not know the stats on the percentage of Bills going through the House that are Northern Ireland related, and he is correct—the number is way too large, and it should not be that way. The Northern Ireland Protocol Bill is proceeding, but the Government would very much prefer to get a negotiated settlement that works for all. Really that should not need saying, but I will say it once again. The former Government Chief Whip in me tells me that the House will always find a way to have its say on anything that the Government or the Executive do, and I am absolutely sure that that will be the case here.

Omagh Bombing

Debate between Chris Heaton-Harris and Peter Kyle

Thursday 2nd February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)]

I thank the Secretary of State for his statement and for the in-person briefing that he afforded me and the team earlier this week.

I begin by paying tribute to all those who lost loved ones or were injured in the Omagh bombing. Last year, I visited Omagh and went to the memorial park—a beautiful tribute to the victims. The local community in that quiet market town has shown remarkable resilience and dignity in the face of an unspeakable act of terror.

The republican dissidents who planted the bomb were trying to derail the peace process, just months after a majority had voted for the Belfast/Good Friday agreement. They did not succeed, which is a credit to everyone in Northern Ireland. Michael Gallagher’s son, Aiden, was one of 29 people and two unborn children who were murdered that day. Michael has been a tireless campaigner for answers. I am struck by his powerful words when he says that he and other relatives of those killed want answers so that they can finally reclaim their lives.

We welcome the Secretary of State’s decision and the approach that he has taken in putting victims first in his deliberations. I know that he met the families before Christmas and promised that he would return personally to tell them whether he would order an inquiry. He has been a man of his word. Justice Horner was not prescriptive in his ruling about what the Secretary of State should do. Indeed, other Northern Ireland Secretaries have responded differently to similar rulings.

It is important to say that if the inquiry finds that there were shortcomings in how intelligence was used, that will not change the fact that republican terrorists are ultimately responsible for the lives that were lost and changed that day. Any article 2-compliant inquiry should provide the opportunity to learn the lessons that will prevent similar tragedies in future. The Republic of Ireland now has a moral obligation to start its own investigation. However, the fact that the Secretary of State is calling for the inquiry clashes with the Government’s overall approach to legacy issues. We oppose the Government’s Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill because it provides more benefits to perpetrators than it does to victims of terror.

The Secretary of State has put Omagh families at the heart of today’s decision. I am worried that other victims of atrocities during the troubles will be watching and wondering why their loved ones are not being treated in the same way. I speak regularly with the families of the Birmingham pub bombing victims, for example, and I am worried about how this news will affect them. Victims are already noticing contradictions in the Government’s approach to legacy issues. The Government rightly included the Omagh bombing in the troubles for the purposes of the victims’ pension scheme in 2020, but today the Secretary of State is saying that the Omagh bombing is outside of the troubles as defined by the legacy Bill.

Although the legacy Bill is opposed by all parties and communities in Northern Ireland, I think the Secretary of State’s decision today will be supported by them all. A seesaw approach to policy is not healthy in any circumstances—least of all when dealing with the sensitivities of Northern Ireland’s past. The Government have presented their logic as to why atrocities that were committed in late 1998 qualify for a public inquiry and those committed before that do not, but that logic is understood only in Whitehall.

Many families still struggle with the loss of loved ones, and their grief is compounded by the absence of information or justice. They simply cannot see the logic in treating the crimes that shattered their lives as undeserving of the treatment announced today simply because of a date that appears to them suited to the needs of Ministers but not respectful of their needs as victims.

I believe the Secretary of State to be a decent man. If he proceeds with the legacy approach that he has inherited, he needs to be certain that it will provide to all victims the same comfort and answers that he is offering the families in Omagh today.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his kind words and support for my decision. On what he said about the main point of difference, I actually do believe that we are being consistent. For hundreds, if not thousands, of families over the 25 years since the troubles ceased and the Belfast/Good Friday agreement came into effect, there has been no justice or information about what happened to their loved ones during that period. Investigations might have come and gone, but to no result for those families.

As the hon. Gentleman knows, I am trying to improve the legacy Bill as much as possible by talking to everybody who has an interest in the legislation. I have met victims groups over the last four months, as has the Minister from the House of Lords—Lord Caine—to ensure that we get the legacy Bill exactly right so that it can give those families, if possible, at least some information about what happened to their loved ones. That is all Michael Gallagher really wanted when he started his campaign. He wanted to know as much information about what happened that day as possible, and I hope the inquiry I have announced today will give him that.

Northern Ireland Elections

Debate between Chris Heaton-Harris and Peter Kyle

Wednesday 9th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)]

I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement. Here at Westminster, our respective parties should strive to work together and build consensus on Northern Ireland whenever possible, so I appreciate his efforts to inform me of developments over the weekend and during the period since the 28 October deadline passed.

Tony Blair was right when he called the peace process

“a responsibility that weighs not just upon the mind, but the soul.”

So I understand the difficulties that the Government are facing. When we talk about elections in Northern Ireland, it is worth repeating that power-sharing, frustrating as it can be, is the essential and hard-won outcome of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, and the principle of consent is fundamental to it. The fact that we have been without an Executive since February damages the agreement that we all cherish.

That has also hit public finances. The independent Northern Ireland Fiscal Council has made it clear that the lack of an Executive has made it harder to manage the pressure of inflation. The cost of living crisis is hitting Northern Ireland particularly hard, and the Government must urgently implement the support that they have promised. If they delay any further, they must give the people of Northern Ireland an explanation, beyond simply saying, “It’s complicated.”

The Labour party has taken a constructive approach to the challenges posed by the absence of devolution. We have called for any of the three Prime Ministers in that time to use their great office to bring parties together. Can the Secretary of State therefore confirm when the current Minister for the Union—who is also the Prime Minister—will visit Belfast? We have taken all parties on their own terms. Will the Secretary of State consider bringing all parties together in one room, so that they can hear the same message at the same time from him? We need everyone to be on the same page when it comes to the challenges that face Northern Ireland.

We have also put forward solutions to the outstanding issues with the Northern Ireland protocol. The politics, as well as the implementation, of the protocol are indivisible from the current impasse. Anyone who thinks differently is on a hiding to nothing. Even though the protocol forms part of a treaty between the UK and the EU, Northern Ireland is, by definition, on the frontline. The Unionist community perceive it as an existential threat, yet party leaders from both communities, and the Alliance party, tell me that they are not meaningfully updated, let alone consulted, on the UK’s negotiations. The Secretary of State is still relatively new in his position. Will he turn a new page and find ways to bring Northern Ireland’s parties together; to bring them in from the cold? Given that negotiations with the EU are so opaque, perhaps he could tell us whether they are finally trying for a veterinary agreement.

I met all the party leaders in the week before the 28 October deadline, and I do not think that what they said then has changed since. There is great hope that the nature of negotiations with the EU has changed, and that a deal is close. If that is indeed the case, the Government need to update the House regularly, and to keep us updated henceforth. Three Secretaries of State in six months was never likely to lead to a sustained effort to restore Stormont. Chaos has consequences. More than any other part of our country, Northern Ireland is reeling from the Tory dysfunction here in Westminster.

I have made it clear that I will support the Government in delaying elections in extreme circumstances, but we need to hear what the time will be used for. This is the crux of the matter. The Government wasted the last six months, so what will they do in the next few weeks that they have bought themselves that they did not do in the previous weeks? If the coming period is to be fruitful, something different needs to happen, so rather than our focusing on the technical aspects of date changes, I would like to hear more from the Secretary of State about what he intends to use that time for.

In the year since my appointment, this is the first statement on Northern Ireland, despite everything that has happened. Will the Secretary of State commit to keeping the House more updated, on a more regular basis, than his predecessors did?

Northern Ireland deservers more than uncertainty, limbo and neglect. The Labour party will always be an honest broker for Northern Ireland, and we will work tirelessly to find the stability that is necessary for a bright future shared by all.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his constructive tone, and for the way in which we have worked together since I took over this role. I welcome the fact that he, too, noted the contents of the Fiscal Council’s report—issued yesterday—and its explanation of what such a budget deficit means in real terms for Northern Ireland’s finances, and the difficulties that it creates.

The hon. Gentleman asked me about bringing all the parties together, and I would be delighted to do so. The one thing that I suppose the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland can do is convene, and there are many conversations to be had. I know that all the parties are very willing to talk to me, and I hope they are also very willing to talk to each other. So I shall certainly take that opportunity, but I also enjoy my individual conversations with them, and believe them to be very important indeed.

The hon. Gentleman asked about updating the House and the Northern Ireland parties on the ongoing negotiations on the EU protocol. First, it is not for me to update the House on those negotiations; it is the Foreign Secretary who is conducting those. Secondly, on the basis of my experience—I spent a decade in the European Parliament, and have now spent 12 years in this place—I reckon that it is probably quite unhelpful, in many respects, to provide a running commentary on negotiations. However, I understand the sentiment behind the hon. Gentleman’s request, and I will ask the Foreign Secretary to see what can be done to offer appropriate briefings to the parties concerned.

The legislation that I will introduce is intended to create the time and space needed for the talks between the UK and the EU to develop, and for the Northern Ireland parties to work together to restore the devolved institutions as soon as possible. I think it only right that, as we move forward, I do update the House regularly on those matters.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Chris Heaton-Harris and Peter Kyle

Wednesday 7th September 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Secretary of State.

[Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)]

I welcome the new Secretary of State to his place and pay tribute to both of the Northern Ireland Secretaries that we have had since July. I particularly pay tribute to his predecessor, the right hon. Member for North West Cambridgeshire (Shailesh Vara), and his predecessor’s predecessor, the right hon. Member for Great Yarmouth (Brandon Lewis).

Let me ask at the outset whether the Government’s position on getting Stormont up and running is unchanged. To date, we have heard that

“there is no excuse for the DUP not being back in government”,

and also:

“Unless we get an Executive we can’t help those families in Northern Ireland.”

Is that still the case?

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

We are clear that the protocol is a negotiation between the EU and the UK, but, yes, the position is completely unchanged.

[Peter Kyle]

The former Foreign Secretary stopped protocol negotiations back in February. Now that she is Prime Minister, her team has been briefing conflicting reports about her intentions. We have heard that negotiations will restart. We have heard that negotiations will not restart and that article 16 will be used instead, or that the protocol Bill will proceed with urgency, provoking EU retaliation. This issue will have been covered in the appointment conversation that the Secretary of State had with the Prime Minister. It is imperative that he now updates and informs the House which of these will become Government policy.

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. I had hoped that I had answered that a tiny bit earlier. I am keen that, in sorting out the issues of the protocol, we try to negotiate a solution with the European Union. However, we do have legislation ready. We have discussed it in this House. If we do not get a negotiated solution, we will legislate.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Chris Heaton-Harris and Peter Kyle

Thursday 30th January 2020 Commons Chamber

[Peter Kyle (Hove) (Lab)]

12. What steps his Department is taking to reform the regulation of fares to encourage more people to travel by train.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Chris Heaton-Harris)]

The Government have frozen regulated rail fares in line with inflation for the seventh year in a row. In addition, we have already cut costs for thousands of young people with the 16-to-17 saver railcard and announced a new railcard for veterans, which is to be launched later this year. All those measures help encourage people to travel more by train.

[Peter Kyle]

It has been two and a half years since the Gibb review of the main line between London and Brighton, which stated that there are three rail fare structures for one line. It is really simple: get rid of two of them and stick to the Thameslink fare, which is the cheapest. The Minister does not need another review, because there have been many already. Can he just get to his feet and give a commitment that that is exactly what he will do?

[Chris Heaton-Harris]

I can get to my feet and commit the Government to simplifying rail fares in the very near term.