Social Mobility (Wales)

Debate between Chris Evans and Stephen Doughty

Tuesday 19th December 2017 Westminster Hall

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

Thank you for calling me to speak, Mrs Moon. You are a former social worker of course, so nobody has to tell you about the problems of social mobility in Wales. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts)—I must improve my Welsh pronunciation—who is quickly becoming, like her predecessor, a very well respected Member of this House.

I wish I could stand here and say that there is a magic bullet to bring about true social mobility in Wales. Sadly, there is not. For many people living outside Wales, this year’s findings in the State of the Nation report on Welsh poverty will come as a shock. For those of us who have lived and grown up in Wales and are proud to represent constituencies there, it comes as no surprise.

According to the State of the Nation report, 23% of people in Wales live in poverty. That is almost 700,000 people, and more than half are in working households. Further research has found that children born into working-class families are significantly less likely to move up the socio-economic ladder than their peers from middle-class, financially stable households. Children living in the poorest households are less likely to enter further education post-GCSEs, are less likely to go to university, and in turn are less likely to find skilled employment later on in life.

Quoting figures is all very well, but the reality is that many of our children have woken up this morning in damp, cold, sub-standard accommodation. Many have gone to school hungry and without the right equipment for school. To put it bluntly, those born into poor households are failed before they even start. Poverty is not just an abstract problem. It is not something we speak about to feel good about ourselves. It is something that affects our society. It is a drain on resources. It stretches our welfare state. It clogs up our health service. It is man-made and can therefore be changed. In all candour and in all honesty, what has gone before clearly has not worked. It is damning of every one of us in this place that nearly a quarter of people live in poverty in Wales. The decisions we make have clearly not worked. Tinkering around the edges is no longer any good. We have to have a fundamental change in the way we do things.

In my own constituency of Islwyn, which is based in the Caerphilly county borough, the attainment gap between key stage 2 and 3 pupils who are eligible for free meals and those who are not is significant. Only 28% of those pupils eligible for free school meals achieve the equivalent of A* to C GCSE in the core subject indicator. Caerphilly county borough is also middling in terms of its youth indicators for destinations for year 11 leavers, ranking 12th. Some 1.9% of students in the borough are not in education, employment or training, and it gets worse at a national level.

In Wales, 37.5% of people will apply for university compared with 42.5% in England. Added to that, in each and every one of our constituencies there is a poverty that has no measure and cannot be talked about. Mrs Moon, you know about it in your constituency of Bridgend. My hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) knows it as well. You walk up to the brightest child and say to their parents, “This child can go all the way to university,” and they say, “It’s not for us. You’re off your head. It does not happen to people round here.”

I can still remember—this is a true story—a careers teacher saying to me, “I have one piece of advice for you: have no ambition. Nobody from round here becomes anything, anyway.” That was the attitude then, and I fear that for so many people that is the attitude now.

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

My hon. Friend makes a very important point. I, too, have heard those absolutely tragic comments in my own constituency. However, it is clear that things can turn around if the right interventions are made. We have seen a remarkable turnaround in Eastern High in Cardiff and also with the fantastic investment in Cardiff and Vale College. We have seen a turnaround in results, in aspirations, in ambition. That is making a real difference in young people’s lives, thanks to the investment from the Welsh Labour Government.

[Chris Evans]

I absolutely agree. In some cases we have to intervene family by family, but it is a huge undertaking in terms of human resources and financial investment. As we saw under Labour Governments between 1997 and 2010, when we have the will we can reduce child poverty, and we did. I do not want to paint a picture of my constituency as all doom and gloom. I absolutely hate it when people talk us down. How can we attract high-quality jobs when we keep telling people we are dependent on soup kitchens? In Islwyn—Mrs Moon, you will know as a member of the Defence Committee—we have General Dynamics creating high-quality, high-skilled jobs. That is the future, but we have to do three things.

The one thing we have not talked about in this debate is entrepreneurship. Our future will not depend on the public sector. If we are to create high-quality jobs, they have to come from within Wales. But I will say this. How many people in this room—will the Minister accept this?—know how to go about setting up a business and how to deal with VAT and human resources? How many people spoke to anybody in school who said to them, “Business could be the way forward for you”? Think about it. We talk all the time about academics. The most famous entrepreneurs in this country—Lord Sugar of “The Apprentice”; Duncan Bannatyne of “Dragons’ Den”—share one thing in common. Not one of them has a single qualification between them, but they all managed to build companies that employ thousands of people, bringing wealth to this country.

I have talked to the Federation of Small Businesses. Business is vital. We have 250,100 active businesses in Wales with a combined turnover of £117 billion; 95% are micro-businesses employing no more than nine people. Large businesses make up only 0.7% but employ 38% of the workforce. We need to go into schools to encourage enterprise. We need entrepreneurs to talk to our schoolchildren. If we think that that cannot be done, just look at the viewing figures for “Dragons’ Den” or “The Apprentice”. One of the most viewed programmes at the weekend was the final of “The Apprentice”. People see business as something exciting that they can get involved in, but it cannot be on the other side of a television screen. Someone, whether it is Lord Sugar or a local entrepreneur or employer, needs to come to schools to tell people about their experiences.

We should ask ourselves about the way we teach children. It is no good saying we have a GCSE pass rate of 60%. What about the other 40%? I have to ask about the way we teach our children not only in Wales but all over the country. We know from academic studies that people learn in four different ways, yet we teach people only in one way: the teacher in front of the class teaching the kids. Some kids will flourish, but others will not. We therefore have to look at the way people learn. We have so many opportunities. In years to come, traditional exams will not be the measure.

I recently visited the Man Group, an investment company that is investing in artificial intelligence. It told me that it now wants graduates with degrees in machine learning. The graduate entry level salary for that is £60,000. Most of its graduates will have been to Oxford. We should teach kids coding and similar skills from an early age, because the future will be automation and artificial intelligence. My son Zachariah is 10 months old, and he will probably do a job that I have never heard of. We must start teaching kids the core skills in school. The issue goes back to what my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders) said: we need mentors in schools, to teach people about those things.

My hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) talked about the 1944 Butler report and the tripartite system. We have neglected technical skills. I believe that people voted for Brexit because of fear of immigration. Those migrants will not now come in. We need to invest in technical education, and that needs to come from the Government, but we need to make sure that technical qualifications involve the same level of attainment as a degree. Not everyone is academic; some people are good with their hands.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Chris Evans and Stephen Doughty

Wednesday 27th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

2. What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on the roll-out of universal credit in Wales.

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

7. What recent discussions he has had with Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on the roll-out of universal credit in Wales.

Universal Credit (Wales)

Debate between Chris Evans and Stephen Doughty

Tuesday 5th February 2013 Westminster Hall

[Stephen Doughty]

As the hon. Gentleman says, it was before my time in this place, so I will refrain from commenting and make some progress.

I am happy to report that Cadwyn is taking proactive measures to help its tenants adapt to the swathe of changes, including help with jam jar accounts, visits in person to vulnerable tenants and organising property swapping mechanisms on Facebook. Those are the types of methods to which it is resorting. There is, however, a limit to what it can do to mitigate the impact of all the changes coming together, particularly with the hard core of tenants who will prove difficult to access, reach and support and who will find it difficult fundamentally to adapt to universal credit and other changes. On the bedroom tax, there are simply not the properties to move into.

If that is not enough, let us take the perspective of Cardiff, the largest local authority in Wales. I know that its concerns are shared by many neighbouring local authorities, including Vale of Glamorgan, which is also in my constituency. Last week, I spoke to officials at Cardiff council last week who said:

“With regard to Universal Credit, this is expected to start in Cardiff from February 2014 but there is still considerable uncertainty about when this will be fully implemented. This will affect 140 jobs in Cardiff.”

They face concerns such as a

“lack of clarity about how face to face services will be delivered. Cardiff currently sees 1000 customers a week about housing benefit face to face. The insistence on digital by default fails to recognise how many low income households cannot afford broadband and how much help is needed by vulnerable tenants to claim benefits. Payment direct to tenants in social housing…is likely to result in arrears, evictions and homelessness. Indications from the pilots are that tenants are falling into arrears.”

I have already mentioned that evidence. The concerns continue:

“There is still no clarity about the circumstances in which payments will be made to the landlord.”

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

Like me, my hon. Friend is a supporter of the Co-op’s campaign against legal loan sharks. Does he agree that, in the case of his and my constituencies, legal loan sharks are positively rubbing their hands and waiting for residents to come to them?

[Stephen Doughty]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. I have seen an explosion in legal loan-shark activity on our streets, whether that be people knocking on doors or opening up offices on the high street. I commend the work of organisations such as the Cardiff and Vale credit union that are trying to provide alternative options.

Cardiff council was also concerned about the following:

“Budgeting issues are also a concern as Universal Credit will be paid monthly in arrears. This is one of the major concerns expressed by customers visiting our roadshows.”

It has been taking proactive steps. It was also concerned that:

“Low income families who depend on this money will have no resource at all if there are any problems with receipt of the payment.”

I do not want to guess the future, but a serious concern is that the record of all Governments in implementing large-scale IT projects leaves much to be desired.

Lynda Thorne, the cabinet member for housing at Cardiff council, wrote to me just yesterday and said:

“I am concerned that the end result of many of these changes will be an increase in homelessness and the transfer of extra financial burdens falling on local council tax payers in terms of picking up the cost of a reduction in the collection rate of council tax, the extra cost of providing help and support to those who need support completing claims and a rise in homelessness created from direct payments.”

She makes the point that Cardiff has

“more private Landlords providing accommodation to those on benefits than all the RSLs, housing Associations, put together. Private Landlords have indicated that they are likely to revert back to only letting to those in work resulting in even more families and individuals becoming homeless thus costing council tax payers more. We currently have more than 500 families and individuals in temporary accommodation at any one time.”

What are the Minister’s reflections on those legitimate concerns raised by a major housing association in my constituency and the largest local authority in Wales?