FIFA

Debate between Chris Evans and Jesse Norman

Wednesday 10th June 2015 Westminster Hall

[Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con)]

It is a joy to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. I join colleagues in congratulating my hon. Friend the new Minister for the brilliant start she has made in her role. I am particularly delighted, because her appointment shows that in this new, one nation, compassionate Government, all prior sins will be forgiven. I am rather hoping that that will extend to other colleagues in due course. [Hon. Members: “Declare an interest!”] Perhaps I should.

Colleagues are absolutely right to pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins). The truth of the matter is that for a long time this issue has not been front and centre in discussions in the House, but he has made it so. He has campaigned on it for a long time, and it is to his huge credit that he did so and built up such unmatched expertise, and also that he has highlighted the conditions of the workers in Qatar. As he made clear, this is only the beginning of the process begun by the US and Swiss authorities. It is clear that we can expect not only that the process will continue, but secondary lawsuits—for example, from defeated bidders. The repercussions of what has begun will resound for many years to come, and possibly for decades.

As colleagues have noted, if Mr Blatter is allowed to continue to run the process to select his successor, and to defend FIFA and his interests as vigorously as he has done so far, there is every possibility that little, if anything, will change as a result of any reforms made. This is an institution with virtually no transparency, accountability or oversight, as has been amply demonstrated by its failure to make public the Garcia report and any further reflections on it. In that context, the legal process is under way, but there is only one other solution on the table: cut off the money supply and target the commercial sponsors and broadcasters.

[Chris Evans]

It is important to talk about sponsors, but the World cup reaches a worldwide audience, so if McDonald’s or Coca-Cola are not involved, some other company will take their place because they all want to get into people’s homes. The hon. Gentleman is a Conservative, so perhaps he will not like this, but has he given any consideration to players going on strike? If the World cup did not feature the likes of Lionel Messi or Christiano Ronaldo, it would be diminished. That would send a powerful message to FIFA.

[Jesse Norman]

That is a very interesting suggestion. The question to ask before that is whether, if it is shown that the bidding processes for the Moscow and Qatar World cups were in fact as corrupt as is widely believed, due thought should be given by sponsors and broadcasters to setting up a parallel organisation in order to bring FIFA to its senses. That is the move that we should make before contemplating a players’ boycott, which has not always proven effective in other sports.

The Bribery Act 2010 has rightly been mentioned. I have recently written in support of my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe to try to clarify some details and ask for further guidance. The Act has a very wide jurisdiction: it applies to any commercial organisation that trades in the UK and fails to prevent bribery by a person associated with it, and that bribery can take place anywhere in the world. In other words, it gives a lot of potential for prosecution. It was supposed to update the law on white-collar crime, but the fact of the matter is that very few convictions have been secured so far, and there is little, if any, evidence that a prosecution has been brought under the crucial section 7.

I asked the director of the Serious Fraud Office questions that build on some of those already mentioned. I asked whether the sponsors associated with FIFA—Adidas, McDonald’s, Gazprom, Hyundai, Kia, Budweiser, Coca-Cola and Visa—might be guilty of offences; what specific measures the SFO has taken or will take, and what it knew; whether it has met employees or agents of, or advisers to, the sponsors, or has plans to meet them; and what steps have been taken to interview employees or agents who may potentially be subject to UK criminal prosecution. I have not yet received a response to my letter; I hope that I do, and I will make it public when it arrives. Politicians cannot be in the business of unduly influencing legal procedures, but it is striking that so few prosecutions have been brought under an Act that was supposed to clean up white-collar crime.

The next stage is to move on to the broadcasters. Broadcast rights money may also have been used in corrupt practices. If the broadcasters are commercial organisations under the law, they too may be subject to the 2010 Act—and, of course, they need not be British, but merely trading in this country, as all the world’s broadcasters do. After that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Graham Stuart) mentioned, we can move on to the banks, money laundering and other malfeasance, much of which we have heard about on the Select Committee on the Treasury.

I will close by reflecting on the bidding for the World cups in 2018 and 2022. Anecdotal evidence is starting to build to suggest that the processes were deeply corrupt. If so, there is little hope of those processes being unwound, but what is the alternative? The only alternative, which must balance European interests and those of the new markets for football, is that a pan-European World cup, covering every major footballing nation in Europe and using existing stadiums, be held in 2018. That could buy us some time. It could easily be hosted, as the stadiums and infrastructure are present, and it would allow more time for the Qatar World cup—an odd proposition in its own right—to be fully assessed. Many football associations across Europe backed Mr Blatter, and if we hold such a World cup, they can come together and start to bind up some of the wounds, and the whole of footballing Europe can then move on.

Co-operatives and Mutuality

Debate between Chris Evans and Jesse Norman

Thursday 30th June 2011 Westminster Hall

[Chris Evans]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I was coming to that. This culture is very much engrained in the valleys. My mother, my grandmother and all my aunties and uncles had Provident. However, this is not just about Provident; it is also about paying off the money for the television through the slot in the back. People put a pound in, and they had 10 hours of television. In that way, they could pay off their television. It was always a nightmare, because the pound was guaranteed to run out just at the conclusion of “EastEnders”, and we would never know what the cliffhanger was. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that once the television had been paid off, the firms would come round and say, “The carpet’s looking a bit bald. Do you fancy a new one? What about a new washing machine.” They would then sign people up.

This problem of high-cost lending still exists. I cannot believe that I am going to admit this in a Westminster Hall debate, but I actually watch Jeremy Kyle; I am ashamed to admit it, but I have watched his show. As I was waiting for the all-important DNA tests and the lie detector, the adverts came up. One was for a company called Wonga.com. It was wonderful; Wonga was revolutionising same-day lending. I thought, “This is marvellous.” The advert said, “You’re in control.” I thought, “This is brilliant.” Then, however, I looked at the APR, which was 4,125%—pure, utter profiteering.

I did not think any more about the company. Then, however, I got on the tube on Monday morning, and there was an advert for Wonga.com, saying, “You’re in control.” The APR was more than 4,000%. I cannot get away from this company. I was watching “Match of the Day” and the press conference after the match. There were adverts for Barclaycard, but the Blackpool players also had the word “Wonga” right across their chests. Such things give the company the legitimacy that it does not deserve.

There is a way of out this. Yes, we can have legislation, and I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Stella Creasy), who has done a lot of work on the issue, and I am sure she will speak about it later. However, there is a more intrinsic way forward, so let me move on to credit unions.

The other day, I went to Islwyn Community Credit Union with my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas)—I will not talk about our earlier visit. We talked about how the credit union had lent a total of £1 million to the most vulnerable people. To pick up the point made by the hon. Member for East Hampshire, the people at the credit union said it was all very well lending money at competitive rates and allowing people to save, but that people did not know about credit unions. Provident, Safeloans and Shopacheck will knock at the door, and people can go to Wonga, Ocean Finance or someone else, but they do not know about credit unions. People are hearing about them by word of mouth and they are hearing about getting more protection points.

The other day, I was proud to visit Trinant school—I must give it a plug. If anybody wants to see a credit union, they should go there to see the children’s enthusiasm. The pupils have formed their own saving scheme, which is run along the lines of the Islwyn Community Credit Union. Those children have saved £600. The scheme has 56 members. One of the wonderful things about the scheme is not only that the children are saving, but that they are so enthusiastic that they are going home to their parents to tell them about credit unions. They are promoting credit unions in that way. This is an excellent project.

When the Minister sums up and talks about credit unions, I hope he will talk about Wales. Everybody in Wales has access to a credit union, and I really think the coalition Government should have that as an aspiration more widely. We should also take legislative obstacles down. I would ask the Minister to lower the minimum age necessary to join a credit union, which is presently 16—the same as the minimum age people need to be to serve as a company director. If we take such steps, we can promote credit unions, good lending and good saving.

I turn now to the mutualisation of the banks. I have been accused of banging on about the banks, but, like many Members, I am disappointed that Northern Rock will be sold privately. I hope the Government can look at introducing a mutual element, because we need that in society. In the middle of the banking crisis, there was one bank that did not need bailing out and which had run its business ethically: the Co-operative bank. When we look at the banking sector again, I hope the Co-operative bank is one of the examples we look to and learn from.

[Jesse Norman]

It is also true that the Nationwide, a mutual building society, did not require a bail-out. In fact, it was like the Rock of Gibraltar throughout the crisis.

[Chris Evans]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that.