Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Chris Evans and James Heappey

Monday 24th May 2021 Commons Chamber

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Cuts to armed forces numbers will affect Britain’s influence around the globe. The former Defence Minister, the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Johnny Mercer), appeared before the Defence Committee on 11 May and said that “no one” could explain the rationale for the size of the defence cuts. Does the Minister agree with his former colleague?

[James Heappey]

No. As the carrier strike group sets sail and the littoral response group sets out for the Baltic, as our soldiers in Mali and Afghanistan show what great jobs they have been doing there, and as our Air Force continues to contribute to NATO air-policing missions, alongside the fantastic work it does to support the rest of our deployments around the world, I can see a rapidly transforming set of armed forces that are better equipped and better able to meet the needs of the United Kingdom by responding to threats when they emerge upstream, rather than sitting in the United Kingdom contingent for the fight when it eventually comes.

Bank Branch Closures

Debate between Chris Evans and James Heappey

Thursday 30th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Evans]

I promised my hon. Friend before I stood up to speak that I would not say “Clwyd West”, but I knew I would get it wrong. My hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) has been a good friend for a number of years. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn, she cares about these issues. I thank her for her passion and for the strength that she has shown, especially this week, given the difficult circumstances.

Sadly, the debate has come at a bad time for me. Only last night I received the terrible news that yet another bank—Lloyds in Newbridge, a town in my constituency—is to close in October. That follows the closure earlier this month of HSBC in Risca, another town in my constituency. Sadly, such closures are not unique to my constituency. They are widespread throughout the whole country, and some sections of society are experiencing a considerable loss. The BBC reported in May that between April 2015 and April 2016, more than 600 bank branches were closed across the UK. More have closed since, including that HSBC branch in Risca, and soon there will be that closure in Newbridge and others across south-east Wales.

Local residents are being given the usual reason by their bank, namely that more customers are turning towards online banking and footfall at branches is falling. It is hard to deny that online and telephone banking are on the rise. Although I use bank branches from time to time, my own daily banking needs are usually met over the phone or through an app. This trend is underlined by Barclays, which says that on average its customers use mobile banking more than 28 times a month, but visit their local branch less than twice in that time. The banks say that it therefore makes commercial sense to close branches that are expensive and not being utilised enough to justify their cost. When I worked in banking in the early part of the 21st century, I noticed that footfall was going down, but the banks were not really very nice places because we would have a customer’s arm up behind their back trying to sell them as much as we could as soon as they walked through the door.

If we look only at statistics and reduce customers to numbers on a graph or spreadsheet, saying that they are only one of a minority who do not use online or telephone banking, we ignore the cost and the burden that closures place on the individuals who are left out. When we dig a little deeper to see who exactly loses out the most from the closure of a bank branch, it is almost always the most vulnerable in the community. I have spoken in the House about the perils of payday lending, legal loan sharks and doorstep lenders. If someone needs a loan, they will trust the person at the door if there is no bank at the end of the road to meet their borrowing needs. That is the danger. When a bank closes a branch, that person, who is usually unbanked, becomes even more vulnerable than they already are.

I have to make an example of HSBC and the branch closure in Risca. When I launched an online petition, which was signed by hundreds of residents, some of the comments truly summed up the problem with branch closures. One constituent said:

“My parents use this bank. If this branch closes they will not have a branch within a 5-mile radius. The nearest branch will be at least 30 minutes away by bus. Both of them are in their 70s and cannot use internet banking as they have no internet connection nor computer. They are hard of hearing, so telephone banking is also out of the question. How are customers like them supposed to deal with any issues if they cannot speak to someone face to face?”

HSBC’s closure of Risca’s branch was bungled, and the same goes for branches all over the country. The first I heard about it was in an email on a Friday night. I was told, “Do not say anything, because we have not told the customers or the businesses. Keep it to yourself.” I wrote to the bank and asked for an exact closure date and when it was going to be announced, but I was met with silence. It was only when I put it in the press and set up the petition that HSBC wanted to talk to me. Even then, it was like pulling teeth.

I asked to speak to the chief executive—like the hon. Member for East Lothian did with RBS—and I was given a regional director who popped by in Risca for the day. Guess what I found when I walked into the HSBC? Did I find a branch on its last legs? Did I find a lack of staff? No, people were queuing out the door to use the services. The average age of the people was 70s or 80s and they were complaining that the branch was going to close, yet the representative was in the office telling me that no one was using the service. Who am I supposed to believe?

Another thing that I have to say about HSBC is that when it did finally put out a press release, it told me that footfall had dropped by 70% in Risca. That was very good, and I accept that, but when branches were closed in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) in Porth and Tonypandy and in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore), the bank said exactly the same thing: footfall had fallen 70% as well. I am sorry, but I do not believe that figure.

[James Heappey]

The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent point. The difficulty is the ambiguity over the definition of “regular users” that the banks try to use in their impact statements. I am not absolutely sure what it is, even though I spent some time researching for today. There needs to be a clear definition of what a regular user is so that the number in an impact statement can be interrogated.

[Chris Evans]

I totally agree. When I go to a bank that is about to close, I want to know the exact figure. I want to know what the footfall is even if that means just clicking the numbers as people walk through the door. At least then there would be some raw data that could be used to justify a branch being closed.

There is also a social impact. Risca once had several banks and building societies, including branches of Lloyds, HSBC and Barclays. Lloyds and HSBC have now closed, leaving the town with one remaining bank, which is fortunate because people still have the option of moving to Barclays if they want to continue to bank locally. What happens if, as in so many communities up and down the country, Risca or Newbridge lose their last remaining bank as the long trend of bank branch closures continues, as predicted by fintech companies?

I say to my hon. Friends the Members for Ynys Môn and for Clwyd South and the hon. Member for Ceredigion that I am lucky in Islwyn because we have good transport links. We have a trunk road that goes right through the constituency, the bus service is good, and there is a new train service. People can get from town to town. However, Ceredigion, which is a huge constituency that I know quite well, Anglesey and Clwyd South all have country lanes and one-track roads. How can people get from one branch to another? It is a major outing for many people.

Before a bank closes, it is imperative that a full assessment is carried out of the impact that the closure will have on the local community and that local stakeholders are consulted. Steps have been taken. In March 2015, banks published their access to banking protocol, which laid out their commitment to ensure financial inclusion and to undertake an impact assessment through community engagement when a branch closure was planned. I look forward to the publication of the independent review led by Professor Russel Griggs of how banks have implemented the protocol. In my anecdotal experience, however, they have not. They have been found absolutely wanting.

It is very clear that some banks provide a better service than others. For example, I compare the closure of Barclays in Newbridge with the way that HSBC was closed in Risca. When I see something good, I say so. The way that Barclays managed that closure was far better than what happened at Risca. Barclays had the raw data, there was a point of contact, it spoke to all the customers, and I pay tribute to its community relations manager, Jonathan Brenchley, who was fantastic all the way through that process. The great thing about him is that if customers have a problem, they can pick up the phone to him and he will deal with it. It is an example that many other banks should look into.

In May 2013 Barclays launched its Digital Eagles programme, which is designed to support and educate customers to help them feel comfortable with using digital channels not only for their banking, but in all aspects of their lives. So far it has trained over 16,000 Digital Eagles across the country and has held 5,200 learning sessions. The expansion of such programmes among other banks would be a very important step towards ensuring that nobody was left behind as banking changes.

However, switching to online or telephone banking alone will not be enough to ensure that nobody is badly affected by branch closures. The parents of my constituent, who have no computer or internet, should not be expected to buy a computer, and their hearing problems make telephone banking an obstacle. If they are to keep their independence as more bank branches close, banks must move towards a model whereby the bank will go to the customer if the customer cannot get to the bank physically, digitally or otherwise.

I pay tribute to NatWest for its service, which is akin to a mobile library. Its van turns up once a week in hard-to-reach communities so that people can do their banking there. A promising solution might be a vast expansion of mobile banks which, although they are not perfect, could at least dampen the impact of bank closures. Customers who seek the kind of banking and financial advice they would otherwise receive at a branch should have the option to request one-to-one meetings with bank staff, either at home or in a nearby public space, such as a library.

It is important to remember that among the biggest customers of local bank branches are small businesses, with regular trips to their local branches to make deposits. The closure of branches means that they have to go further and further and waste precious time when they could be chasing sales and business. If time is money, they are certainly losing out. As in the case of personal banking, I believe banks must change their approach so that they are the ones to come to the customer. In January 2016 Barclays introduced a Barclays Collect service, which will travel directly to business and corporate customers to collect deposits directly from their door. I welcome that news. Barclays plans to roll out the scheme more widely next month. I hope the scheme is successful and that other banks follow suit.

We have to consider other options, and credit unions must be part of the mix. Earlier my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow West (Mr Thomas) said that in the new banking world credit unions must play a role. They will bring people to banking. I know that the Minister has been a champion of credit unions in the past. They bring people to banking, but very often they are the victims of their own success. Because they are voluntary organisations, when they get huge they get even more difficult to manage, as people do not have the necessary skills and experience.

Credit unions do not know where to go as they get bigger. I think building societies have a role and should offer back-up to credit unions, as should post office credit unions. There is much work to be done in credit unions, but there needs to be a next step for them, such as the opportunity to become a community bank, a post office-style credit union, or even a building society. I urge the Minister to look into this. Legislation is needed to enable huge credit unions run by voluntary staff to become the new banks or smaller community banks or building societies. I hope she and her officials will give some thought to that.

We need to start thinking about the social impact when a bank closes. The premises usually remain vacant or become a pub, for example, which is a waste.