SMEs (Public Sector Procurement)

Debate between Chris Evans and Huw Irranca-Davies

Tuesday 11th June 2013 Westminster Hall

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

My hon. Friend makes a valid point about the strategic importance to SMEs of procurement. Does he agree that there are practical things we can work through? Will he pay tribute to Bangor university, which is working with SMEs and the Welsh Government to, for example, reduce 50-page contract tendering documents to as few as 10 pages? We can see that those things can be done, and will create jobs through SMEs.

[Chris Evans]

I agree, and there was a discussion about that this morning in another place.

From my constituency experience of micro-businesses, such as painters and decorators, they make their money from painting council houses, school buildings and hospitals; but they must jump through rings of fire to get through the procurement process. I pay tribute to the work that Bangor university and the Welsh Government are doing to reduce the paperwork that SMEs must go through. That paperwork turns them away from a vital source of income, because of the complexity of the system.

I was interested when my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore mentioned procurement examples in the food sector, and I want to touch on another example of best practice, which I am pleased to say comes from my constituency. It concerns the defence and security industry, which is a massive industry for us. We are lucky in Islwyn that we have General Dynamics UK, which moved there specifically because of a Ministry of Defence contract. It has access to markets and cutting-edge technology that can be used by small businesses. I am delighted that the EDGE UK facility is in Oakdale at the moment. It does an incredible amount of work with SMEs, helping them to get access to defence and security markets nationally and internationally. Not only that, but its modus operandi protects the intellectual property of the SME and ensures buy-in from all sides, offering clear benefits to both parties. If the Minister wants to see an example of innovation in the procurement process, she has an open invitation to come to Islwyn and to Oakdale. I shall be happy to show her round; I think she will find it is a beautiful constituency.

Anyone who has dealt with SMEs will say how important it is for them to work with larger companies, retain their intellectual property and win new business in the market. EDGE UK is appreciated by the customers of General Dynamics UK, including the Ministry of Defence, as it helps those with a niche capability from SMEs who usually cannot get access to the customer. Through EDGE UK General Dynamics works with an average of 50 SMEs a year, constantly seeking out and reviewing innovative developments. I know from speaking with people from General Dynamics that it is always keen to attend business events, to expand awareness of EDGE UK through the SME community, and to invite new SMEs to talk about ways they can engage with a company through EDGE UK. I remind all those with small businesses, if any of them are watching the debate—hopefully on television on a Sunday morning—that they have an open invitation to get involved with EDGE UK, and to get access to its innovation and capability. It is fantastic.

Not every SME can work with General Dynamics, of course. Products may need maturing. EDGE UK provides support to such SMEs, to help them identify avenues for funding that will help them develop their technologies. Those include, for example, the Centre for Defence Enterprise, the Technology Strategy Board, and the various business funding streams available from the Welsh Government. We cannot talk about SMEs and procurement in the public sector without looking at examples such as EDGE UK and seeing what we can learn and apply. For every General Dynamics success story and every EDGE UK there is someone in Wales, or somewhere in Britain—perhaps a micro-business employing five people, such as a painter and decorator—who is desperate to get hold of a contract: to paint a council house or school building. That is because those are what I like to term Bank of England contracts—they will not fall apart under someone’s feet, and they will not walk away: the business owner knows they will get the money at the end of the day. When there are businesses that pay their bills late, access to contracts of that kind is vital.

I find it frustrating that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore mentioned in an intervention, people have to wade through 50 pages of tendering documents. The time and money that goes into public contracts makes it harder and harder for small and micro-businesses to tender for them. The process costs money that is precious to them, and they become caught in a vicious cycle. They have no money for the tender, but they need to tender to make money. The fact that the Government are willing to promote the tendering process, but allow companies to get stuck in a system where they cannot get hold of contracts, is a bit of a hare-brained scheme. On a recent visit to Axiom Manufacturing Services, a successful manufacturer in my constituency, the frustration of the situation was pointed out to me. First, no help is provided with filling in the contracts: the business does not know what is being looked for in the tender. Secondly, feedback is rarely given to those who are unsuccessful, so it is not possible to move on and improve processes the next time.

To return to the 25% aspiration, let me say that now is the time for a coherent Government plan. Since I entered the House I have often heard the accusation that all the Opposition do is oppose everything, but I want to set out concrete plans, and I hope the Minister will listen to five points. First, there should be agreement by Government that procurement will be used as an engine of economic growth. I do not mean central Government but all levels of government, including councils and the NHS. Secondly, a border line should be established and we need to set a target in stone. If 25% is too high, and is just an aspiration, we need to bring the target down; but we need to begin achieving targets, and they need to be measurable.

Thirdly—and I must return to the example of General Dynamics UK and EDGE UK for this—every company with more than a certain number of employees, in receipt of a Government contract, needs to produce a training plan and an apprenticeship scheme, to enable young people to get on the ladder, so that skills and training will improve. That cannot be put in place at zero cost.

Fourthly, we should take a leaf from the book of General Dynamics UK and use procurement to encourage innovation, allowing bidders to come up with new, fresh ideas. That should be in the tendering process. My fifth point relates to what I said before about Axiom. There is a need for help from public bodies, for contracts to be designed in a way that allows SMEs to compete. We need standard contracts across the board. We also need a helpline or someone in Government, in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills; at Axiom I discussed bringing troubleshooters in. There is a need for a crack team that can be called free and told, “I need help to fill this contract in.” The Government could send it on.

Those would be innovative processes. However, we must remember that, without Government will, a limited number of suppliers will still reinforce their market share, stifle competition and keep prices high. Government will and action are needed, and I hope that we see that today.

Agricultural Wages Board

Debate between Chris Evans and Huw Irranca-Davies

Tuesday 16th October 2012 Westminster Hall

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am surprised you called me so early, Mr Caton. I expected to wait a bit.

We are in the American election season, and listening to my hon. Friend the Member for Copeland (Mr Reed) reminded me of what Ronald Reagan said to Jimmy Carter in 1980: “There you go again.” The one thing I have learned since coming to the House is that the Government seem to think that there are simplistic solutions to complex problems. With the most complex problems, it sounds nice to say, “We are cutting red tape by getting rid of the Agricultural Wages Board.” But the problem seems much more complex than that.

I have read this morning’s written ministerial statement, which states that with the introduction of the minimum wage, the Agricultural Wages Board is now obsolete. Again, that is a bit simplistic considering what the Agricultural Wages Board does. Twenty per cent of people are only 2p above the minimum wage. If the Agricultural Wages Board and the setting of wages are abolished, wages might be driven down, rather than up. That means people in the countryside, including farm workers, would be earning less.

I also worry because many of the 12,000 agricultural workers in Wales are of school age, working through their summer holidays. As my hon. Friend says, they are seasonal. They are not entitled to the minimum wage. What is going to happen to them? Are they going to be exploited from an early age?

The other thing I am deeply concerned about is that farmers have it hard. Let us be straight about that. Farming is not easy. It is tough out there. We cannot give farmers the further burden of having to negotiate with staff individually on things such as dog allowances for shepherds, which will go with abolition, and statutory sick pay. I fear that not only are those farmers too small to negotiate, but that this is another extra burden that they do not need. There could be different employment rights in different regions. In some places there might be a good level of statutory sick pay; in others there might not. Some people might have more rights than others.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I want to pick up on the points raised by the hon. Member for St Ives (Andrew George) on the transfer of the AWB’s functions to some other organisation. The Low Pay Commission observed, on the abolition of the AWB:

“The level of sick pay will be significantly less than provided for under the Order.”

Unless the Minister stands up and says that all the functions will be transferred to some other organisation to retain the protections, we have failed to do what the hon. Member for St Ives said, which is to protect agricultural workers.

[Chris Evans]

That is interesting. My hon. Friend will know of Hazel Spencer’s letter to the shadow ministerial team for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs:

“I have been in horticulture for nearly 25 years, working for the same nursery since 1987. During this time, as you can imagine, I have seen many changes. The work is sometimes hard, sometimes repetitive and often carried out in less-than-pleasant conditions.

I initially started as part-time staff, at a time when we had very little right to sick pay, holiday pay and certainly no Bank Holiday pay. Over the years and mainly due to the negotiations carried out by the AWB on behalf of us ordinary workers, conditions within our industry have improved. We have received wages in alignment with those recommended by the AWB: SSP has been supplemented by Agricultural Workers Sick Pay, to bring it in line with a weekly wage during illness, and we received a tax allowance towards providing suitable clothing to cope with the conditions of our workplace.

Basically, what sustains most of the people who work in this industry is the fact that we are earning a fair day’s pay for what we do.”

My concern is that we are asking small farmers to become employment specialists of some sort. Are they going to go to solicitors? Are they going to make mistakes? Are we going to see more people before tribunals? Those are real concerns that the Minister has to address.

If I might be mischievous for a moment, I draw attention to an early-day motion signed by the Minister in 2000 that called for the then Labour Government to

“retain the Agricultural Wages Board as it is currently constituted.”

Does he still think that should be the case?

Ultimately, everyone in the Farmers Union of Wales is opposed to the abolition of the AWB. They are concerned that the removal of the AWB will leave farmers exposed when having to negotiate pay and conditions. The AWB is a very good model that could be used by employers and unions across the board. The model has worked since 1924, and the Attlee Government established the AWB in 1945. Again, as often with the current Government, all we see is a drive for cuts in mythical red tape.

I say this whenever we talk about employees’ rights: happy workers are the best workers. The real issue that has to be addressed in society, whether in the countryside or in the urban world of banking and finance, is fear of job insecurity, which is the thing most people worry about. When employment rights are taken away, people are less secure, less productive and do not perform as they should.

I know we are going through a consultation process, but if the Government do not put something in place, we will start to drive wages to the bottom. Yes, as the written ministerial statement highlights, farming has massive opportunities because of the growing world population, but those opportunities will only be fulfilled with productive workers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

There is one other part of the AWB jigsaw puzzle that has not been mentioned yet. I am sure my hon. Friend is aware of upland farmers in his area; many small farmers use the provisions of the AWB when they tender their services to other farms. The AWB provides set agreements and set rates without individual negotiation; everyone knows the code and the agreement. Without the AWB there will be many individual, complex and time-consuming negotiations and a lot of additional bureaucracy. That is why we want to preserve the functions of the AWB.

[Chris Evans]

Quite simply, a lot of my farmers will not bother with it. The practice will end because they will not be interested in getting down to the nitty-gritty of the code. There is a code in place.

I wonder what the Minister’s thoughts were when he signed that EDM 12 years ago, and what has changed. There is no argument for abolishing the AWB as it stands: it works for farmers and for workers, too. When he responds to the debate, I hope he will tell us what was going through his mind when he signed the EDM all those years ago, and what has changed significantly in the past 12 years to make him change his mind. I look forward to that.