Procurement Bill [ Lords ] (Seventh sitting)

Debate between Chris Evans and Alex Burghart

Committee stage
Thursday 9th February 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Alex Burghart]

Part 7 of the Bill is concerned with the implementation of the United Kingdom’s international obligations. The UK is currently party to 24 international agreements that contain procurement obligations, with each listed in schedule 9 to the Bill. They include trade agreements signed before our exit from the EU, such as the World Trade Organisation Government procurement agreement, and the recently signed Australia and New Zealand trade agreements.

Clause 88 uses the term “treaty state suppliers” to identify suppliers from countries that are entitled to benefit from one of the international agreements listed in schedule 9. The clause ensures that treaty state suppliers have the right to no less favourable treatment than domestic suppliers under the UK procurement regime to the extent covered by their relevant agreement, including the right to seek remedies. As the UK negotiates new international agreements or is required to amend existing agreements, delegated powers under subsection (3) will allow schedule 9 to be revised accordingly. In this way, schedule 9 will continue to reflect our updated international obligations and ensure that the UK remains compliant.

It is important for the Committee to understand that the delegated power in subsection (3) does not allow for substantive changes to the rules set out in the Bill regime, even where required by an international agreement. This is partly the reason why separate primary legislation is required to implement the UK-Australia free trade agreement. It is therefore not capable of being used to implement rule changes that might affect matters such as food standards, environmental standards or control over the health service. For that, the Government would need to return to Parliament with further primary legislation. Schedule 9 to the Bill is a list of international agreements that contain substantive procurement obligations and to which the UK is party.

Clause 89 sets out that a UK contracting authority may not discriminate against a treaty state supplier; that is to say that UK procuring entities may not treat the goods, services and works of treaty state suppliers less favourably than those of UK suppliers. Clause 89 is imperative in order to meet our international obligations. The principle of non-discrimination is firmly embedded in the WTO’s Government procurement agreement and other international agreements to which we are party. Being party to these agreements will ensure that UK goods, services, works and suppliers also receive the same fair treatment from our trading partners. In doing so, the UK will continue to enjoy the benefits of existing and future trade agreements, including guaranteed access to procurement opportunities in some of the world’s largest economies.

The power set out in clause 90 allows regulations to be made in relation to devolved procurement in Scotland to ensure that treaty suppliers are not discriminated against. The power is to be exercisable concurrently by a Minister of the Crown or Scottish Ministers, meaning that in the course of implementing international obligations under the Bill, a Minister of the Crown could also implement obligations for the whole of Scotland, in respect of both reserved and devolved procurement. This recognises both that the implementation and observation of international obligations is a devolved matter, but that the UK Government are ultimately responsible for compliance with our international obligations.

Amendments 59 and 60 seek to address a concern raised by the Scottish Government that the power in clause 90 is broader than is necessary, and in particular broader than the equivalent power that allows the updating of schedule 9 to the Bill to reflect new free trade agreements.

Although I can assure the House that it is not the Government’s intention to use the powers in clause 90 to interfere with Scottish procurement rules, we have listened and added a number of factors that would limit the exercise of the power. These amendments will ensure that either a Minister of the Crown or Scottish Ministers would only be able to make provision that is equivalent to provision in part 7 and only when it is necessary in order to ratify or comply with an international agreement, such as by adding to or amending the list of international agreements in Scottish procurement legislation. It could not be used to amend Scottish procurement rules substantively. I thank colleagues in Scotland for working constructively on this point.

New clause 11 and the consequential amendments 69, 77, 79, 81, 82 and 83 are needed to give the UK the ability to take necessary retaliatory or compensatory action as a result of a procurement-related dispute under the World Trade Organisation’s Government procurement agreement, or with a country with which we have a free trade agreement on procurement.

Under the UK’s trade agreements, if a country does not comply with its international public procurement obligations, we must be able to implement practical retaliatory measures; otherwise, we may not receive the full benefits of the commitments under these agreements. These amendments would give the UK a power to amend its domestic procurement legislation to take such action, for example to remove market access to particular procurement markets for suppliers from a trading partner that is in breach. Similarly, if the UK is in breach, it may need to implement measures to bring itself back into line.

This power is clearly limited in scope to procurement-related disputes and can only be used to make provision relating to procurement. The power cannot be used to address disputes relating to other areas of the UK’s trade agreements. It will also be subject to the affirmative procedure, so that there is a sufficient level of scrutiny in Parliament when it is to be used.

Without these amendments, the UK would be at a disadvantage among its trading partners, because it would not be able to take retaliatory action to incentivise other countries to comply with their procurement commitments and, in the absence of the necessary domestic legislative mechanism to compensate its partners in case of non-compliance, the UK would not be viewed as a trusted international partner.

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell, on what is the fourth day of our deliberations in this Committee.

Mr Mundell, you, my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, the hon. Member for Aberdeen North and I are all members of the Celtic fringe, and we have all been accused in the past, somewhat unfairly, of speaking too fast. However, the Minister put us to shame just now, so I wonder whether he has Scottish or Welsh roots somewhere. [Laughter.]

As the Minister set out, part 7 of the Bill, which includes clauses 88, 89 and 90, sets out the implementation of international obligations in relation to procurement. These clauses have a strong theme of ensuring that no discrimination takes place between contracting authorities and treaty state suppliers, which are set out in schedule 9 to the Bill. Clause 90 also reaffirms this for procurements made by devolved Scottish authorities.

What is important about this part is our commitment to meeting our international obligations. I know from my role as a shadow Defence Minister how important it is to be an active member of the international community. It is important not only for the UK’s standing in the world; I have also found that when we meet these standards, we are also doing the best for this country here at home.

I think that we were all deeply moved yesterday by President Zelensky’s speech in Parliament. The war in Ukraine is a prime example of how important it is to meet our international obligations. By donating weaponry to Ukraine, we are aiding a member of our international community in their fight against an illegal invasion. However, if we are to continue to support the international community, we need to ensure that our procurement system can keep up.

As it stands, we will have a gap in our defence capabilities. In March 2021, the Defence Committee concluded that the Army would be “hopelessly under-equipped” in “obsolete armoured vehicles” and would be “very heavily outgunned” if it was called to fight an adversary, such as Russia, in eastern Europe in the next few years.

The war in Ukraine has shown us how dangerously close we are to this reality. We need to ensure that we are capable of defending ourselves first, so that we can then help others in need. I believe that a commitment to buy, sell and make more in Britain within our procurement system would help us to achieve that. Now, more than ever, we have to ensure we continue our commitment to a fairer world. I believe the way we conduct our procurement has a huge role to play in that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Alex Burghart]

To address the most pressing issue in this group, I must confess to having a Celtic heritage. Indeed, my grandfather was from south Wales, and his grandfather was born in the workhouse, not terribly far from the constituency of the hon. Member for Islwyn, so he has found me out.

[Chris Evans]

We are related in some way.

[Alex Burghart]

One family, one Wales.

I am pleased to hear the hon. Gentleman support NATO and the Government’s actions with regard to our allies in Ukraine. He will know that we have a trade agreement in place with Ukraine, and yesterday was a sign of the ongoing, very close relationships between President Zelensky’s Government and our own, and the necessary partnership in the face of tyranny.

Let me turn to amendment 102, in the name of the hon. Member for Aberdeen North. I must assure her at the outset that this is a power that the UK Government would only need in extremis. I completely understand that Holyrood and the Scottish Government—certainly under the SNP, I am sure—would always want to implement our international agreements. But what if another party that was not so upstanding was one day to be in power? What if another group of nationalists was to seize control from the SNP and wished to hold up our international agreements? There are other nationalist options—the former head of the hon. Lady’s party has formed a renegade bunch running under the name Alba—and perhaps they would not be as reasonable the hon. Lady’s party. Perhaps they would wish to prevent us from implementing our international trade agreements. That would not only prevent us from delivering the benefit of those agreements to the whole of the United Kingdom, but completely ruin our chances of signing future trade agreements. We understand her objections, but we believe that it is essential to ensure that in all circumstances the UK Government can make good on the promises that they sign with partners.

Procurement Bill [ Lords ] (Eighth sitting)

Debate between Chris Evans and Alex Burghart

Committee stage
Thursday 9th February 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Alex Burghart]

The clause introduces schedule 10, which amends the Defence Reform Act 2014 to enable reforms to the Single Source Contract Regulations 2014. The regulations continue to work well to deliver their objectives of ensuring value for money for the taxpayer and a fair price for industry. However, delivering the defence and security industrial strategy and building on experience since 2014 means some reforms are needed. They will ensure that the single source procurement regime can continue to deliver in traditional defence contracts and be applied effectively across the breadth of single source defence work in the future.

In paragraph 2(2) and 2(4) of schedule 10, we are taking a power to clarify that some cross-Government single source contracts with a substantial defence element will come under the Defence Reform Act regime. That will provide assurance on value for money on a greater proportion of single source defence expenditure.

We are increasing the flexibility of the regime by taking a power in paragraphs 3(2) and 3(8) of schedule 10 to enable contracts to be considered in distinct components with different profit rates being applied to different parts of a contract, where that makes sense. Further flexibility in the regime will be provided by a power in paragraph 3(3) to specify circumstances under which a fair price for all or part of a contract can be demonstrated in ways other than by reference to the pricing formula in the Defence Reform Act. Circumstances for using such an approach will be set out in regulations and will include, for example when an item has previously been sold in an open market or where a price is regulated by another regime.

We are simplifying the contract negotiation process by amendments in paragraph 9(3)(a) of schedule 10, which will ensure that the contract better reflects the financial risks involved, and in paragraph 8(3)(e), by taking a power that will clarify how the incentive adjustment should be applied. We are also removing two steps from the current six-step profit setting process. The amendment in paragraph 9(3)(b) will abolish the funding adjustment for the Single Source Regulations Office or SSRO. The same paragraph will also remove the adjustment that ensures that profit can be taken on a contract only once. That issue is dealt with through allowable costs by virtue of paragraph 12(3) of schedule 10.

We are simplifying some reporting requirements by way of amendments in paragraph 13 of schedule 10 to reflect concerns expressed by suppliers and to make compliance with the regulations more straightforward. We are making better use of the expertise of the SSRO by way of the amendments in paragraphs 18 and 19 by enhancing its power to issue guidance, and clarifying and expanding the range of issues on which it can adjudicate. That will empower the SSRO to play a greater role in speeding up the contract negotiation process.

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

I thank the Minister for his explanation of the clause, which is related to the Defence Reform Act 2014, which created the Single Source Regulations Office. I have only a question or two about the clause: is there any effect on that office? How does he envisage the regulations he mentioned developing over time? He has already said the regulations will be laid in due course, but can he give the Committee any idea of what they will look like in the new regime proposed in the clause?

[Alex Burghart]

With reference to the SSCR, where we procure in the absence of competition it remains vital that we strike the right balance between, on the one hand, paying contractors fair prices for the goods and services we buy and, on the other, providing assurance that the taxpayer is getting value for money. Experience from before 2014 showed that a non-legislative approach was insufficient to achieve that balance. The amendment in schedule 10 will apply only to contracts that are substantially for defence purposes. The criteria for including a contract will be set out in secondary legislation. To the hon. Gentleman’s point, that is necessary because it is not generally possible to price the defence elements of such contracts separately in primary legislation, so we need the flexibility in secondary legislation.

[Chris Evans]

I hear what the Minister says about regulations. Will that have any effect on the profit margins set by the SSRO?

[Alex Burghart]

That will depend on what the regulations were, which is for discussion at a future point.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 113 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule 10 agreed to.

Clause 114

Concurrent powers and the Government of Wales Act 2006

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Procurement Bill [ Lords ] (Fifth sitting)

Debate between Chris Evans and Alex Burghart

Committee stage
Tuesday 7th February 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Chris Evans]

I outlined the importance of transparency and accountability in a previous debate on procurement. Our amendment 4 is an attempt to strengthen that further and to reinstate at £2 million the threshold for publishing contracts in major projects. I noted previously that the financial threshold was raised in the other place and that the Minister could not explain why £5 million was decided on. If the Bill is an attempt to make procurement more transparent, we have failed at the first hurdle.

On Second Reading, my right hon. Friend the Member for Ashton-under-Lyne (Angela Rayner), the deputy leader of the Labour party, said:

“Being granted taxpayers’ money is a privilege.”—[Official Report, 9 January 2023; Vol. 725, c. 353.]

I remind Government Members that their long-departed leader, Lady Thatcher, once said that it is not the Government’s money, but taxpayers’ money, and that every penny should be accounted for. I am looking at the Minister and hoping that I got that quote absolutely right—I am sure he will correct me if I did not. I believe that is true no matter the sum of money. Every pound represents the work of hard-working people across the country, and we—particularly those of us who serve on the Public Accounts Committee—should be mindful of that.

That is why contracts awarded at £2 million should have the same scrutiny as those worth more. Figures such as £2 million are often bandied about—we hear the value of transfers in sport—but that is still a considerable amount of money. If we are truly committed to reducing waste in procurement, we need more transparency throughout. Introducing key performance indicators at a lower threshold would signal to businesses that the UK requires value for money, and efficiency, from every procurement contract.

While I appreciate that the Government have stated that the changes to the threshold are to reduce any administration requirements, and to address concerns raised by the Local Government Association, the lack of transparency around how the threshold was decided has made me understandably cautious. Transparency and value for money must be priorities when spending taxpayers’ money. Increasing the number of contracts that are scrutinised by requiring key performance indicators would allow for transparency at all stages of a contract’s lifecycle and hold businesses to account on issues of social value.

When we are in the midst of a climate crisis, it is necessary to ensure that suppliers are actively working towards the UK’s net zero commitments. When industries across the country are facing a skills gap, it is necessary to ensure that businesses are committed to apprenticeships and training new generations. And while the country continues to face a cost of living crisis, it is necessary to ensure that jobs across the supply chain are protected.

[Alex Burghart]

There are few rarer treats than hearing an Opposition Member quote Baroness Thatcher. I am sure the hon. Gentleman will have reflected on, and enjoyed, the fact that she also said, “The problem with socialism is that you quickly run out of other people’s money.”

However, the hon. Member’s probing amendment is fair enough, and it is important that we discuss this issue. Hon. Members will recall that the Bill as introduced had a threshold of £2 million for the publication of KPIs on public contracts, but that the threshold was increased to £5 million in the House of Lords as part of a package of measures designed to reduce the administrative burden placed on contracting authorities, while still providing increased transparency in respect of larger public procurements.

The current financial threshold balances the need for transparency on KPIs with the costs and burdens of implementing the rules at a lower spend value. To reassure the hon. Gentleman, £5 million, which we have now fixed on, aligns with the thresholds that are used by central Government in the playbook for procurement. It is generally seen as the point where things become more complex. We thrashed out the number based on a lot of engagement with industry, and it was felt that that was an appropriate threshold to ensure that we were not including a lot of contracts with lower complexity.

Turning to amendments 75, 78 and 80, there are a number of places in the Bill where we apply financial thresholds that trigger obligations on a contracting authority. The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee recommended that the affirmative procedure for secondary legislation should be applied for a number of those, and we made those amendments in the other place. That ensures greater scrutiny where there is a change in transparency requirements. We also indicated in our response to the DPRRC that we considered that the justifications for that applied equally to the amendment of the financial threshold for the setting and publication of key performance indicators. Amendments 75, 78 and 80 achieve this.

Clause 52 describes a requirement for contracting authorities to

“publish at least three key performance indicators”

for public contracts worth more than £5 million. That is a new requirement and it will ensure that we have visibility of how well individual suppliers are delivering in the public sector.

The clause is intended to bring transparency to the management of significant public sector contracts, allowing citizens and others to see how suppliers are performing. It should also ensure that companies that repeatedly fail to deliver do not win additional business—something that is not possible under the present procurement rules. The requirement does not apply if the contracting authority considers that KPIs are not an appropriate measure of contract performance in a given case. The example we give is of a contract for the one-off supply of goods. That is a one-time action and cannot be measured over time or by varying metrics.

The clause does not apply to the establishment of framework contracts—but it will apply to contracts awarded through the framework—utilities contracts awarded by a private utility company, concession contracts or light-touch contracts. A power is given for an appropriate authority to amend the financial threshold above which KPIs must be published. We have tabled an amendment to make the power to change the threshold subject to the affirmative procedure, so that if this Government or future Governments wish to adjust the threshold, they can easily do so, provided that they have Parliament’s consent.

The overall picture is enhanced by the spend data reporting obligation in clause 70. I respectfully request that amendment 4 be withdrawn.

[Chris Evans]

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 52 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 53

Contract details notices and publication of contracts

[Chris Evans]

I beg to move amendment 26, in clause 53, page 36, line 9, leave out “£5 million” and insert “£2 million”.

This amendment would reinstate the threshold for publishing the contracts in major projects at £2m.

As noted in the explanatory statement, the amendment would reinstate the threshold for publishing the contracts in major projects at £2 million. As I have pointed out, the Government seem to have chosen £5 million as an arbitrary figure. I will not repeat the points I have already made. We do not want to place an undue burden on small and medium-sized enterprises to have to employ costly legal advice to redact sensitive company information. However, I believe that, with sums of more than £2 million, it is completely reasonable to expect transparency.

Trust in Government spending is important to overall trust in Government, especially when they are spending sums of public money in the millions. It is not unreasonable for the public to expect transparency about where their money is being spent, and that the information is readily available and easily accessible. Although I understand the need not to make the process too arduous for smaller businesses, the proper balance must be found.

[Alex Burghart]

The revised threshold of £5 million seeks to ensure that a disproportionate administrative burden is not placed on contracting authorities and, as I have said, it reflects what we have in the playbook. The figure came out of a large amount of engagement with industry. There was recognition that it is around the £5 million threshold that we see additional complexity in contracts. That is why we think that the current financial threshold balances the need for transparency in these important matters with the costs and burdens of implementing the rules at a lower spend value.

It is important to stress, however, that contracting authorities will still be bound by a transparency obligation to publish contract detail notices for contracts above the agreement on Government procurement thresholds, which will contain information on which supplier has won the contract and other information about the contract award. I respectfully request that the hon. Gentleman withdraws his amendment.

[Chris Evans]

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

[Alex Burghart]

Clause 53 requires contracting authorities that enter into a public contract to publish a contract details notice. This is a significant extension of transparency, which will allow interested parties to see details of public sector contracts. The contract must be published within 90 days of the contract being entered into or, in the case of a light-touch contract, within 180 days. The contract details notice will contain information on the goods and services procured, the value of the successful tender and the procurement method used.

The Welsh Government and the Northern Ireland Executive have decided to include a derogation from publication of a contract, which is their right.

[Chris Evans]

Clause 53 sets out the need for the publication of contract details for all contracts over £5 million. According to the Government’s own figures, one in every three pounds of public money—some £300 billion a year—is spent on public procurement. Ultimately, the taxpayer deserves to know that money from the public purse is being well spent.

I know from my time on the Public Accounts Committee—sooner or later, we will start doing PAC bingo, as every time I stand up I seem to mention how long I was on that Committee. I was there for five years. I promise that I am not going to speak for five years, Mr Efford—

[Chris Evans]

Fidel Castro was the master—I think 18 hours was his minimum. If you want me to do that, Mr Efford, I can. With lunch coming up, I think I would be the most popular member of the Committee.

I know from my time on the Public Accounts Committee that transparency leads to improved Government spending. There should be no place to hide poor contract decisions or, in the worst cases, possible cronyism. Unfortunately, there have been several scandals relating to procurement and Government spending. We have already heard this morning about the questions surrounding the procurement of PPE during the pandemic, which led, unfortunately, to the huge sum of £10 billion of public funds being spent on unusable, overpriced and even undelivered PPE.

At a time when so many families are struggling with the cost of living crisis, we cannot allow the public to feel that their hard-earned tax money is not being spent properly, and we all must work to restore public trust in Government procurement. The Government’s own “transparency ambition” document outlines a concerning failure to provide transparency in our procurement system. These reforms are long overdue and I am pleased that we are able to talk about them today. I think we can all agree that it is important that we increase trust in Government, and one of the key ways we can do that is through transparency. Labour would go further in government than the present Conservative Government. We would introduce a Ukraine-style publicly accessible dashboard of Government contracts tracking delivery and performance.

I am pleased that the Government have made some commitments to increasing transparency on large projects. The reforms—particularly the introduction of a number of new procurement notices covering the entire procurement lifecycle from planning through to contract expiry—are a welcome step forward. However, there are a few areas where we need clarity on implementation.

For example, at clause 53(2), the Bill states:

“A ‘contract details notice’ means a notice setting out—

(a) that the contracting authority has entered into a contract, and

(b) any other information specified in regulations under section 93.”

The Minister said on Second Reading that the Government

“will deliver world-leading standards of transparency in public procurement”—[Official Report, 9 January 2023; Vol. 725, c. 343.]

and that there is a

“statutory obligation on the Government to deliver a single digital platform to host this data.”—[Official Report, 9 January 2023; Vol. 725, c. 348.]

However, it is unclear what a contract details notice will look like in practice, and how much detail will be required—in other words, how much transparency will actually be provided. It seems strange that there is no outline of how much data will be provided and what form it will take. I worry that will allow for only the very basic details of public contracts to be provided. Could the Minister explain his understanding of what transparency notices will look like and what information they will be required to contain?

A concern raised by the Local Government Association is that the clause risks contradicting other pieces of legislation, which, in turn, risks the ability to achieve one single digital platform for procurement. The LGA has suggested that the Transport Act 1985, the Service Subsidy Agreements (Tendering) (England) Regulations 2002 and the best value transparency code may have an impact on the implementation of the Bill. Could the Minister tell us whether that has been resolved, or what plans the Government have to ensure that other legislation does not interfere with the implementation of the single digital platform?

Overall, I welcome the goals of the clause, but I feel that it requires closer attention to ensure that it is properly implemented.

11 am

[Alex Burghart]

I am happy to play bingo with the hon. Gentleman any time. One particular game that we might play is to call “Bingo!” every time the Ukrainian digital platform is mentioned, because it has been mentioned several times. And well might it be mentioned, because it is a model of good practice. The hon. Gentleman will have heard me say on several occasions that we were grateful to the Ukrainian Government for coming and advising us on the creation of our own digital platform, which he will also have heard me mention. That platform will be the harbour of transparency, enabling suppliers, contracting authorities, central Government, voters and the press to see what is going on and to hold people to account. It will be a great asset.

The precise details of what needs to be published are not fit to be put in the Bill and the requirements may change over time. However, we will set those details out in due course, and what will drive our considerations when we do so is the ability to hold suppliers and contracting authorities to account.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 53 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 54

Time limits

Procurement Bill [ Lords ] (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Chris Evans and Alex Burghart

Committee stage
Thursday 2nd February 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

I beg to move amendment 12, in clause 23, page 18, line 4, at end insert—

“(3A) Where—

(a) the contracting authority is the Ministry of Defence, and

(b) the contract concerns defence or security,

the award criteria must be weighted so as to advantage United Kingdom suppliers.”

This amendment would give advantage to UK based suppliers in the case of defence or security contracts under the Ministry of Defence.

As has been said during the Committee’s proceedings, when done well, defence procurement strengthens our UK economy and UK sovereignty. Labour in government would make it fundamental to direct British defence investment first to British businesses, with a higher bar set for any decisions to buy abroad. That is the objective behind the amendment.

The Government really have missed an opportunity in the Bill to put British businesses first. We should be using it to ensure that we buy, make and sell more in Britain. Across the country, we have amazing British businesses, with the capability to support all the country’s defence and security procurement needs. Our steel, shipbuilding, aerospace and material industries are national assets and treasures. We need to support them.

If we want to use legislation to empower British business, we need to ensure that British business has the first bite of the cherry of the investment on offer. For the good of our country, we should want to see as much as possible of our equipment designed and built here in the United Kingdom. There are those who think that putting that in the Bill is not necessary, and that being a British business that supports jobs and industry in the UK should speak for itself. Sadly, as we have seen, that is not true.

I draw attention to the recent signing of the contract for fleet solid support ships, which was awarded to a Spanish-led consortium. The Government claim that the contract will support 1,200 jobs across the UK and 800 at Harland & Wolff in Belfast, but it is worth noting that the Government have included no guarantees of those jobs in the contract itself. Under the terms of the contract, the Spanish company will do the majority of the complex manufacturing of the ships, which requires most of the expertise and technology transfers that underpin the project. Instead of investing in the UK’s own abilities in design and technology, we are paying Spain to strengthen its abilities.

To return to my point, the Government chose that Spanish state-subsidised bid over a bid that would have sustained more than 2,000 jobs directly in the design and building of the FSS ships and about 1,500 jobs in the wider UK supply chain, and supported about another 2,500 in local communities around the UK—not insubstantial figures. The award of that contract comes at a critical time for the UK shipbuilding industry. Today, we have already had a statement on the Floor of the House about British Steel. The GMB union has released research to show that shipbuilding and ship repair employment in Great Britain has fallen by 80,000 jobs since the early 1980s. Not only is that a massive decline in skills in the UK industry, but it poses a threat to the UK sovereign defence manufacturing capability at a time of international uncertainty.

I do not need to tell the Committee that this country has a skills gap that desperately needs to be fixed. According to the National Audit Office report on the digital strategy for defence published in October 2022, the Ministry of Defence is having difficulties recruiting and retaining the necessary workforce, because its pay rate cannot compete with the private sector. Some defence companies are actively trying to resolve the issue by recruiting through apprenticeship programmes, such as that at Rolls-Royce, which announced 200 new apprenticeships at its new nuclear skills academy in Derby, and the apprenticeship scheme at Leonardo, where I went last year to speak with the apprentices in Yeovil about their hard work.

Apprenticeships, however, cannot exist without the work to do. One of the main issues that defence companies come to me with is the sustainability of workflow. That makes employers reluctant to take on apprentices for fear that they will not have enough work or money to support them. For apprentices themselves it does not make the defence industry look like a stable place to grow their career. We need long-term investment in apprenticeships and skills development in the UK. There needs to be a culture change in Government to put the growth of local industries first and to review the pipeline of all major infrastructure projects to explore how to increase the materials made in Britain and to upskill the workers to get the jobs of the future.

Such concerns are spread across the whole United Kingdom. The Scottish Affairs Committee has raised those concerns regarding Scottish shipyards. In its report, “Defence in Scotland: military shipbuilding,” which was published on 23 January, the Committee said:

“Recent developments have introduced uncertainty about some orders in the pipeline and whether it sets out a clear ‘drumbeat’ of orders needed to sustain Scottish shipyards.”

UK workers deserve better than that uncertainty.

When discussing the UK defence industry, we must not forget the importance of small and medium-sized enterprises in the supply chain. We know that shipbuilding contracts can help to deliver benefits for the wider economy and in shipbuilding communities. If contracts keep going abroad, work for SMEs will also go abroad, and the skills will go with them.

Public money should be spent for the public good. We should always consider the wider value to society. Our smaller local businesses are at the heart of that. The amendment would advantage British businesses in bidding for defence and security contracts. As a result, it would also advantage UK businesses in the supply chain.

If we are serious about defence procurement, we must commit to buy, sell and make more in Britain. It is crucial, now more than ever, that we have a procurement system that supports our sovereign capabilities, ensuring that UK businesses have the advantage when it comes to securing defence and security contracts.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Alex Burghart)]

It is a pleasure to serve under you this afternoon, Mr Mundell. Before I turn to amendment 12, I would like to refer back to our previous sitting. I said that I would get back to the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown, who is not in his place at the moment but will have the advantage of being able to read Hansard later. His question was whether a procuring authority can reject a bid if it requires a supplier to pay the real living wage. The short answer is yes. That option is very much open to procuring authorities. I am sorry that I could not provide him with that information earlier, because I know that he would have been happy to hear it.

Amendment 12, tabled by the Opposition, seeks to ensure advantage to UK-based suppliers for defence or security contracts. Defence contracting authorities will determine the right procurement approach on a case-by-case basis. That ensures the delivery of the most effective solution for the armed forces while ensuring value for money, taking into consideration factors including the markets concerned, the technology we are seeking, our national security requirements and the opportunities to work with international partners, before deciding the correct approach to through-life acquisition of a given capability.

The defence and security industrial strategy sets out a strong commitment to maintaining onshore industrial capability in key capability segments, such as those that are fundamental to the UK’s national security. That commitment does not always preclude the involvement of foreign-based firms, as long as they conduct the work in the UK and comply with certain security conditions.

I understand that the Labour party wishes to burnish its patriotic credentials—that is all for the good, I am sure—but to listen to the speech by the hon. Member for Islwyn, one could be forgiven for not understanding that 90% of defence spend is already within the UK. Indeed, the fleet support ships that he referred to will be built to a British design, with the majority of the construction at the Harland & Wolff shipyards in Belfast and Appledore and all the final assembly being completed at the Harland & Wolff shipyard in Belfast, bringing shipbuilding back to Northern Ireland. In our Westminster Hall debate the other day, it was good to hear the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) praising that, and saying what a difference it would make to people and businesses in his community.

We must understand that there is already a good tradition of this approach. The Bill, though stipulations elsewhere, will actually make it easier for British small and medium-sized enterprises to bid for these contracts. We will also have better publication of pipelines, which will help them too.

While I appreciate what the hon. Member for Islwyn is trying to do with his amendment, there is a real risk that, if it was passed, we would see some defence authorities occasionally being forced to accept much more expensive contracts, perhaps with lower capability, and that would be to the detriment of both taxpayers’ money and, more significantly, the capability of our armed forces. I therefore respectfully ask, on those practical grounds, that the amendment be withdrawn.

[Chris Evans]

The Minister mentioned the hon. Member for Strangford, whose nickname is the hon. Member for Westminster Hall, he speaks in so many Westminster Hall debates—I think he lives there. I listened to what the Minister said, and I appreciate that 90% of contracts are in this country. However, the amendment would be a shot in the arm not only for our defence industries, but for our steelmaking capabilities, so I will press it to a vote.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

Procurement Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting)

Debate between Chris Evans and Alex Burghart

Committee stage
Tuesday 31st January 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Alex Burghart]

Clause 7 defines “defence and security contract”, which is used in certain clauses and schedules to make specific provision for such contracts. The definition primarily covers contracts currently within the scope of the Defence and Security Public Contracts Regulations 2011, but it also includes other contracts set out in subsection(1)(g), where the defence and security provisions in the Bill are to apply.

The clause also defines a defence authority contract, which is a defence and security contract entered into by a defence authority. A defence authority will be specified in regulations. It is a contracting authority that exercises its functions wholly and mainly for the purposes of defence or national security. The clause also sets out additional definitions for terms used in the definition of “defence and security contract”.

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Mundell. I look forward to working with the members of the Committee and the Clerks as we work our way through this important Bill.

It is also a pleasure to serve opposite the Minister, whom I count as a personal friend. We often exchange text messages in the early hours of a Sunday morning or late on a Saturday night—I do not want anybody reading anything into that, but we are both huge boxing fans, and we are usually debating the merits of the latest big fight. The last time we faced each other, we debated the merits of Lennox Lewis, the greatest British fighter of all time. I think I won that one, but let us see how we go today.

Clause 7 sets out definitions for defence and security contracts—in particular, for the supply of a range of contracts on military equipment, sensitive equipment, logistics services, goods, services or works necessary for the development, production, maintenance or decommissioning of equipment and work that is relevant to the country’s readiness for action and the security of the armed forces. Those definitions are crucial, because defence procurement is one of the most important activities undertaken by the Government.

The Ministry of Defence is the fifth largest spender on procurement in central Government. In 2019-20, it spent £15.9 billion on procurement, and since the pandemic, that has inevitably increased. One of the key functions of a state is to defend itself, and for it to do that, we must ensure that our armed forces have the equipment they need. Our national security, our ability to defend ourselves as a nation and the lives and safety of our troops rely in part on procuring the best equipment. As a country, we have always taken that duty to our armed forces seriously, but at times, tragically, we have not reached the level they deserve. I hope that in this Committee we can work together to improve the procurement system with the shared goal of ensuring that our forces get the equipment they deserve.

Promoting public safety should be the priority of any Government, and defence and security contracts are at the centre of that principle. It is therefore crucial that we get it right. The clause speaks to the procurement of not just the supply of military equipment, but the goods, services or works necessary for the development, production, maintenance or decommissioning of such equipment.

For my sins, between 2015 and 2019, I served on the Public Accounts Committee, and I remember some very uncomfortable hearings with some—shall we say—reticent Ministers who had to explain a lot of mistakes. If there is one thing I learned, it is this: if we do not get contracts absolutely right, it is not just a waste of taxpayers’ money; it puts our safety at risk.

I know you said we should not digress from the clause, Mr Mundell, but I want to use as an example the contract for the decommissioning of the Magnox nuclear reactors. The Nuclear Decommissioning Authority failed to understand the scale and complexity of the work needed, and by the time the contract was terminated, the cost to the taxpayer, according to the National Audit Office, was £122 million. I am sad to say that that is not an isolated case—I could be here all day talking about all sorts of examples. I raise this because it is so important that procurement is undertaken with proper care and consideration, and unfortunately there are too many examples of that just not happening.

Procurement Bill [ Lords ] (Second sitting)

Debate between Chris Evans and Alex Burghart

Committee stage
Tuesday 31st January 2023 Public Bill Committees

[Alex Burghart]

I hope the clauses can stand part of the Bill.

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Efford. The clause states that Welsh Ministers may publish a statement setting out

“the Welsh Government’s strategic priorities in relation to procurement.”

I am pleased that the Welsh Government are adopting the Bill, subject to the legislative consent of the Senedd, of course. To put it simply, the clause comes down to respect. Devolution was originally introduced in the UK in 1998 through the Scotland Act 1998, the Government of Wales Act 1998 and the Northern Ireland Act 1998. It has since become embedded in our society and our national identities; a whole generation has not known anything different, which is a good thing. Protecting the voices of our devolved nations in UK legislation is crucial not only for maintaining the relationships between the UK Government and the devolved nations, but for our democracy as a whole. The Wales procurement policy statement is the voice of the Welsh Government on procurement and, by extension, the voice of the Welsh people, and that deserves a place in the Bill.

The Bill has arisen from our exit from the European Union. Our exit has given us opportunities to ensure that our legislation works best for the UK and the devolved powers. We need a procurement system that works for all communities across the UK and all the devolved nations.

Clause 14 also outlines the steps that Welsh Ministers will need to take before publishing the policy statement. They include carrying out a consultation and, after receiving the responses, making any necessary changes to the statement, which must then be laid before the Senedd. The Bill is a good example of how the two Governments can work together in consultation on legislation in a devolved setting.

I note the views of the Welsh Government on fair value and social partnership, which they have outlined in their Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Bill. It focuses on the wellbeing of Wales and a “prosperous Wales” as an outcome of procurement, and provides a framework for improving socially responsible public procurement. Ensuring that our public procurement system supports the whole UK’s prosperity is vital.

The social partnership between Government, employers and workers is also a strong focus of the Welsh Government’s Bill. It is valuable to include everyone who is at the table. A major component of the legislation is the requirement on certain public bodies to take into account socially responsible procurement by establishing wellbeing goals that they must meet when procuring, and to publish a procurement strategy. Under the Welsh Government’s framework, those public bodies will be required to seek to improve economic, environmental, social, and cultural wellbeing when carrying out procurement.