Autumn Budget as it Relates to Wales

Debate between Chris Davies and Paul Flynn

Wednesday 7th February 2018 General Committees

[Chris Davies]

I concur. Is it £200 million, or is it £2 million—do we really know what Carwyn Jones is offering? Do not forget that that is taxpayers’ money, not Welsh Assembly or Westminster Government money. He could come clean and say that, because this is a bill to the taxpayer, not to the Welsh Assembly or the Westminster Government. We must get it right.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

Has the hon. Gentleman managed to read the National Audit Office and Public Accounts Committee reports on his Government’s decision to build Hinkley Point? They say it will cost an extra £13 billion in public subsidy, which will be paid for by the poorest taxpayers. Is it not true that the cheapest electricity in Wales comes from the Dinorwig pumped-storage scheme in north Wales? There is huge potential for water power in Wales, which is being ignored by the Government in exchange for nuclear power stations, with one possibly in Wylfa to be built by a Japanese company because it cannot build them in Japan anymore.

[Chris Davies]

We have to be cautious about any audit report and investigate further. The hon. Gentleman will remember when Conservative Members of Parliament visited Newport to look at the possibility of a Newport lagoon. The Conservative Government have not only committed to trying to make it happen in Swansea but to make the whole lagoon structure work. We are trying to put the figures together. I will move on, because the tidal lagoon is a small part of what I have to say.

I am delighted that defence investment continues at 2% of GDP, and in Brecon and Radnorshire there is strong commitment to the Infantry Battle School, the training ground in Sennybridge, and Dering Lines. The military play an important part in Wales, and I am delighted that the Government continue to support them in every which way.

Let us not forget a small item we have missed in the Budget: £4.7 million has gone to refurbishing and modernising poppy factories. They may not be in Wales, but they supply poppies to Wales. For most people in this room and outside in Wales, that is the closest they get to remembering those who have lost their lives in battle. That is very important and an item that, sadly, has been overlooked, but it is in there to support our traditional elements.

We have heard much talk about agriculture. Over the past 12 months many farmers in my constituency have seen an increase in the price of lamb and beef on the hoof in the markets, as a result of the lower value of the pound. Many who voted for Brexit—the vast majority of them did so—are looking towards the future and the great expectations it holds. They are not frightened, but they are concerned—they do not know what is going to happen, but they are looking forward to the opportunities. I wish more politicians did that, instead of constantly criticising the Brexit process.

I am delighted that the Budget did not contain a tourism tax. Brecon and Radnorshire relies exceptionally heavily on tourism, as do the constituencies of many Members present, but the Labour and Liberal-run Welsh Government already seem to be talking about a tourism tax, which would decimate the tourism industry in this country. I hope that Opposition Members will tell their Welsh Assembly colleagues how devastating it would be and what a disastrous idea it is for Wales.

[Paul Flynn]

Quite right, too.

[Chris Davies]

I agree.

The mid-Wales growth deal has already been touched on by my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire. The one question that has never come out anyone’s mouth in the Houses of Parliament, or even I think in the Welsh Assembly, is that of mid-Wales. Where does it start and where does it end? Where does south Wales start and stop? Where does mid-Wales start and stop? Where does north Wales start and stop?

As many Members know, my constituency is considered to be a mid-Wales seat, but the southern tip of my boundary is only 15 miles from Swansea bay. We have to think long and hard about where the mid-Wales growth deal will come in and where it will stop. What about constituencies such as that of the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd? The southern part of her constituency could be part of a mid-Wales growth deal and would benefit from it. It is not just about Brecon, Radnorshire, Montgomeryshire and Ceredigion. The mid-Wales growth deal could be of great benefit to the majority of Wales, because the majority of Wales now seems to be mid-Wales.

I am delighted that the Under-Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government, the hon. Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Jake Berry), who has responsibility for the northern powerhouse and local growth, has already visited Powys County Council to get the ball rolling. Before going on to do great things at the Ministry of Defence, the former Under-Secretary of State for Wales, my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), also visited Powys County Council to ensure that it was starting to think about where to lead with the mid-Wales growth deal. The current Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales will visit shortly and lead the project forward, along with Lord Bourne from the House of Lords. The options are never-ending.

We have made it clear to local authorities that the mid-Wales growth deal will spread from east to west, across Offa’s Dyke, because a lot of people in my constituency and in Montgomeryshire naturally cross that invisible border every day, whether to work or shop. Clearly, we have to tie everything in. I am delighted that the Chancellor mentioned the mid-Wales growth deal in the Budget. This is the first time we are seeing some real joined-up thinking from a Government. I praise the Conservative Government for starting the deal. It is a start and not a finish, but I am sure hon. Members will be disappointed to hear that it is the finish of my speech. I look forward to the mid-Wales growth deal.

Leaving the EU: Infrastructure in Wales

Debate between Chris Davies and Paul Flynn

Tuesday 17th January 2017 Westminster Hall

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

I am delighted to be called to speak so early in the debate, Mr Flello.

We listened to the dribble of nothing from the Prime Minister in one of her typical speeches, which are heroically adjectival but ultimately vacuous, and her love of soundbites and meaningless phrases is clear. She talked about having a red, white and blue Brexit, but in Wales we want a red, white and green Brexit. We want one that is tailor-made for Wales, because our situation is unique in almost every way in the British Isles.

We are talking about infrastructure today. Gerald Holtham—a very accurate observer of these matters—has pointed out that although the amounts of money we get from Europe are not a huge percentage of Welsh GDP, they are 20% of our infrastructure funding. A huge amount of money is being provided for all the schemes that my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty) listed in introducing the debate. In my intervention I mentioned the Dŵr Uisce scheme, which is a unique example; it does not affect England in the same way. That exciting project is being run by Trinity College Dublin and Bangor University. It has cutting-edge technology, using small turbines in an ecologically sound way to produce energy. The scheme could have marvellous repercussions and pay huge dividends in future, but it will be in a very strange position, because half the scheme will be outside the European Union and half will be inside it. That is one of many complications that will arise from the hell of Brexit that we are facing.

Remember the reason why Brexit is happening and why the Prime Minister made that speech today: it is all about solving internal problems in the Conservative party. That explains how we got into it and how we are now proceeding. At the moment, the Conservative party is a pressure cooker likely to explode in three directions—there are the hard Brexiteers, the soft Brexiteers and the anti-Brexiteers—and all that we have heard today from the Prime Minister is an attempt to soothe future problems with a honeycomb of sweet words that ultimately mean little.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer has talked about bumps in the road, but I fear that there will be a giant sinkhole in the road into which the economy could slip in freefall. Very dangerous years could be ahead of us economically. There was talk today of us turning into some kind of banana republic on the world stage, and not being one of the great economies. Standards are going to fall down to the bottom. They will not be brought up to the top, and we will not continue down the stable path that we were on in the past. Brexit is a great gamble, and it is right to look at it from a Welsh point of view.

Important issues in Wales come up again and again, as they did when the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs went out of Parliament to meet the people, having asked for their response. I took part in two such events. Someone who came to Aberystwyth said that he worked for a company that was about to expand in Ceredigion. However, post-Brexit, the company has taken the decision to expand in Ireland. Someone else came to the meeting in Prestatyn to talk about the tidal scheme off Anglesey. That interesting scheme uses tidal flow and is very different from what is happening in Swansea. We know that hydropower and tidal power are Wales’s North sea oil. They are a huge resource and their prospects for the future are marvellous, because of the nature of the tidal flows that go around our coast. A huge cliff of water moves around the coasts of Wales, providing great pulses of electricity throughout the 24-hour cycle. All the calculations are based on using tidal power alone, and they have not taken into account the ideal solution, which would be combining tidal power with pumped storage schemes such as the Dinorwig power station. That would make tidal power entirely demand-responsive. The pulses of electricity that arrive in the early hours of the morning could be used to pump the water up the hills, and then the value of the electricity could be multiplied threefold or fourfold by pumping it down when electricity is in high demand. That will be the future of clean, renewable electricity for Wales.

Another issue that comes up at all these sessions, because farmers are a very well-organised group, is farming in Wales, which is again unique in the British Isles. We have a cultural imperative for supporting the farming industry, because it is the last redoubt of Welsh language and culture. It is at its finest and purest in the farming communities and has gone, sadly, from the anthracite coal areas where it used to be. If we want to invest in the culture in Wales and in our precious, unique heritage, we have to invest in it as a cultural treasure that we all feel is of immense value.

However, the main reason for supporting the farming industry is what it does in Wales as a resource and a source of occupations. It is very different from England. If we are going to have our red, white and green solution, we need an entirely new policy on farming.

[Chris Davies (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)]

As usual we have heard the platitudes—the Brexit-denial language—that we are used to from the hon. Gentleman, but to get back to the subject of the debate, does he not agree that many parts of Wales have not benefited from European funding? In fact, the European funding source has been very unfair to certain parts of Wales, and a new post-Brexit scheme may be much fairer for the whole of Wales.

[Paul Flynn]

The hon. Gentleman has not said which parts of Wales he has in mind, but it was noticeable that the parts of Wales that had the greatest amount of infrastructure investment were the least enthusiastic, sadly, for staying in the European Union. If we are looking for a policy, it must be a new one. If Brexit goes ahead, we must take advantage of it to get a Welsh solution for Welsh problems. Take agriculture, for instance: we do not have farmers getting subsidies of £2.5 million. They do not get £750,000—not that I know of anyway—but the Mormon Church gets that. The royal family get subsidies of £500,000, but in Wales the average subsidy is about £13,000, and we have a preponderance of small farmers.

Let us start again and have a scheme with a cap on it so that we do not give huge subsidies to billionaire and millionaire farmers. We must concentrate subsidies on what are necessary in Wales: the small farmers. We should look at Brexit as an opportunity to have a scheme that is fairer and will help the environment. There should be a strongly environmental imperative in all the subsidies that are given, and we should put a cap on them, as we put a cap on other things such as welfare payments. I cannot see why anyone should have a subsidy of £94,000, as one farmer in Wales gets regularly, even though he does not appear to be in need of subsidies. We should look at how income support is paid out. To make the farm industry stand on its own feet and be self-supporting, as happened in 1985 in New Zealand, we have to change the pattern of subsidies, and Brexit is the opportunity to do so.

Many of us bitterly regret what happened in the referendum. During the campaign, I said the victors would be the ones who told the most convincing lies, which turned out to be right. Both sides presented a case that was false. We are certainly not going to get our £350 million for the health service every week, as was written on the side of the red bus, and we did not have the economic collapse that was threatened by the other side. The votes that were taken—a snapshot on one single day—were based very much on public relations spin. The same people who directed the leave campaign are the same people who directed the entirely dishonest alternative vote campaign a few years ago and who ran the campaign about devolution in the north of England. We are handing over the power of decision to the PR specialists and snake oil salesmen, and public opinion is manipulated and persuaded by the PR industry and the tabloid press.

[Chris Davies]

Without question I respect the hon. Gentleman’s years in this House, but do you honestly believe you are helping the Brexit cause by using such language and continuing the route you are now on? Looking at your hon. Friends’ faces as you speak, it does not look to me as though you are helping them in this debate, never mind the cause that you are trying to put forward. We are all Brexiteers now and we need to move forward, not backward.

Wales Bill

Debate between Chris Davies and Paul Flynn

Monday 11th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Davies]

I rise to speak to my amendments 158, 159 and 160. The Committee knows I have many concerns about the Bill and I have stated them very clearly over the past few weeks and months.

Today, I turn to the devolving of wind energy to the Welsh Assembly, which is of great concern to the people of Brecon and Radnorshire in mid-Wales, whom I represent. This is not a common-sense approach to energy. I was very concerned to hear the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) state that Wales could be the energy centre of Great Britain. That makes the people I represent fear that the whole of mid-Wales will be covered with wind turbines. I am sure he is referring to other matters—I hope he is—but we have to remember the way that Cardiff Bay has looked at mid-Wales over the years. We are fearful that we will be littered, covered and blanketed with wind turbines.

We all have a great confidence in the Secretary of State, so I would like to see him have a veto over a UK-wide energy plan that is in the national interest. To have powers particular to the Welsh Assembly does not fit in with the strategic plan for power in Great Britain as a whole—that is the underlying concern. Cardiff Bay should not just be able to make those points and make arrangements for Wales; it needs to be done by Britain as a whole. A veto would give local people an appeal over proposals that may not be in the UK-wide interest. It would also allow local people to have a say in local decisions.

Before coming into this place, I was a councillor on Powys County Council. There was a possibility—more than a possibility—that planning permission was going to be granted so that the whole of mid-Wales would be covered in turbines. The council had to contribute £4 million to fight a legal case against the Government of the day. That money would have been better spent—as we know, Powys is under-utilised as far as money from the Assembly is concerned—on providing local services to local people, instead of having to fight a legal case against wind turbines. For many reasons, I would therefore like the Secretary of State to hold a veto. I repeat the fact that we have confidence in him. We had confidence in his predecessors and I have no doubts that we will have confidence in future Secretaries of State, so let the power stay there.

[Paul Flynn]

Wales suffered for centuries the dirt, the pollution and the danger of extracting coal from the ground, while the comfort and the money made from it was enjoyed throughout the United Kingdom. Nobody wants to go back to that. The sources of power I specifically mentioned were hydropower and tidal power. They are not only very good neighbours but they can enhance the landscape by providing lakes and other facilities. The hon. Gentleman should concentrate on the wider picture and see the possibilities, through the amendment, that the Welsh Government could develop.

[Chris Davies]

I agreed with most of what the hon. Gentleman said, but I do not think he listened to what I said. I am talking specifically about wind energy, to which my amendment relates, not about hydro-energy, off-coast energy or land energy.

I ask the Secretary of State to retain the possibility of a veto. I will not press the amendment to a vote—I am sure that you and many others will be delighted to hear that, Sir Alan—but I hope that the Secretary of State will look at the clause again.