Proceedings during the Pandemic and Hybrid Scrutiny Proceedings

Charles Walker Excerpts

Tuesday 21st April 2020 Commons Chamber

[Karen Bradley]

I absolutely agree with my deputy Chair. He is completely right. It has been very clear during all the Committee’s meetings, which have all been conducted virtually over the last few weeks, that all Members feel strongly that these measures must be strictly time limited. They reflect the situation the country finds itself in today.

We have developed our procedures and ways of doing business over 700 years, since we were last unable to meet, because of the black death, as the Leader of the House mentioned. The situation is evolving. He is right to say that this procedure is the means to the end, not the end in itself, but those means will enable the way we do business to be efficient and effective and ensure that we can speak up for our constituents and make sure their voices are heard in this place

I want to thank and give credit to everybody who has been involved in getting us to this point. It was no mean feat. At the Committee’s first meeting—the Committee was constituted on 2 March—we said we needed to look at the procedures that might be required to deal with the coronavirus, and when it was first suggested that we may have to block out seats in the Chamber, Members were outraged. “How”, people asked, “could we possibly function if we weren’t able to come into the Chamber, contribute and be part of this?” It is incredible to see the work that has been done in just a few short few weeks, and I agree with the Leader of the House that our teams—the Clerks, our parliamentary staff—expect during recess to have a little free time, to reflect how hard they will have worked during sitting periods. That has not been the case up till now.

I also want to thank you, Mr Speaker, for the pragmatic approach you have taken. As Speaker, you are the custodian of this House and how we operate. To endorse a change to our procedures as radical as that in the motion we will be voting on—I hope it will pass on the voices—took great leadership from you, so thank you.

This will not be perfect; there will be glitches and problems. We have all had our internet go down. I have particular problems whenever a PlayStation is cranked up in the next-door room, which makes hearing what is going on in meetings I am conducting not quite as easy as one would hope. The inability to ask supplementary questions or to come back in—that lack of spontaneity; the ability to come in on a question only if we have been drawn out of a shuffle applied for possibly days before—means we will not be able to represent our constituents in the way we would ideally want. But this is better than nothing and as the Leader of the House rightly said, we must not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. We must understand that there will be glitches and that this will evolve. Over time, we will develop a way of working that gives us the best ability to represent our constituents. However, I repeat that it will never be a substitute for the ability to be here fully, and for being fully part of the democratic process.

I want to make the point to the Leader of the House that scrutiny of the emergency measures is vital. My right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne) made the point that we have not had the chance to scrutinise the measures that the Government introduced. There is a sunset clause, but they need to be scrutinised. I urge the Leader of the House to ensure that they have appropriate scrutiny at the earliest opportunity.

The Procedure Committee in its report that was issued this morning endorses the changes that have been put forward, particularly equality of treatment. It is vital that all Members can represent their constituents equally, whether they can get to the Chamber and choose to be here or not. We want to emphasise the temporary nature of the changes. They must be temporary and time limited.

[Sir Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con)]

rose—

[Karen Bradley]

I will give way to my predecessor.

[Sir Charles Walker]

I thank my right hon. Friend for all her work. I also thank her Committee and its most excellent Clerk—one of the most talented Clerks in the House of Commons.

My right hon. Friend is right in what she said earlier. The best way that I—and, I am sure, she—can represent constituents to the Chancellor, the Financial Secretary and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury is in person. The quicker we are back here in person, being able to talk to the Chancellor and other Cabinet Ministers, the better it will be.

[Karen Bradley]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I know the depth of his knowledge of this subject from his extensive time leading the Procedure Committee. Although I want to give credit to Ministers for their accessibility to us as Members of Parliament through WhatsApp groups, telephone calls or other messages—the amount of contact that Members have been able to have remotely is unprecedented—that is no substitute for being here and able to ask a question in public that constituents can see us asking and hear the answer to, so that they know what the Government intend to do with their questions and concerns.

I am grateful for your comments on points of order, Mr Speaker. My Committee was concerned about whether there would be a way of ensuring that our proceedings were orderly. I am grateful that you are looking at that.

I want to deal with concerns about voting. Yesterday, my Committee approved a report that was issued this morning on the basis that we were not looking at reforms to the way in which this place conducts votes. I well understand that there will need to be changes to the voting procedures for next week to ensure that business is not lost. We must ensure that, in the event of some sort of misunderstanding or something not quite working, the Government do not lose the important business that they wish to bring forward next week. However, I say to the Leader of the House that tabling motions tomorrow on further changes to voting will give rise to concern for my Committee. My Committee has not looked thoroughly at what is proposed for remote voting. Some of us have taken part in the trial run, and we cannot say it was absolutely brilliant. A lot more work needs to be done. I know how hard the teams are working on that—this is no criticism of anybody—but I ask the Leader of the House to consider whether there can be a staged process of tabling motions on remote voting, because he needs to take the House with him. The House is here today to support him, because we want all our colleagues to be part of the debate and to be able to contribute, but he needs to take the House with him on this.

On that basis, the Procedure Committee endorses the motions and urges the House to approve them without the need for a Division.

[John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

I echo the point that the Chair of the Procedure Committee made that the measures are not desirable, but are absolutely necessary. They are sub-optimal. We often use phrases that we all understand, but we should put them in a way the public would understand. We talk about holding the Government to account and about scrutiny. Basically, that means asking questions. It means asking the questions that occur to us from our knowledge and experience and that of our constituents. We have been getting a considerable number of questions during the crisis—I will come on to a few of them later. Those questions need answering, and they need answering in this Chamber, which, as the Leader of the House said, has to be the epicentre of the democratic system in this country. Otherwise, what is the point of Parliament?

In answering those questions, I do not expect Departments or Ministers to get everything right. I absolutely expect mistakes to be made. In fact, if mistakes were not being made, I would be really alarmed, because if things did not sometimes go wrong, that would mean that decisions were not being taken. Some decisions will go wrong. The test of a Government, of a Minister or even of a business is how quickly those problems are identified and how quickly they are remedied.

Many of those questions should be being asked inside the Government and, looking at how things are panning out, I am concerned that they are sometimes not being asked, either within Departments or between Departments. There seems to be a degree of dysfunctionality. I do not think press conferences are really getting to the heart of the issues, either. I fully understand the constraints that you and the House are operating under, Mr Speaker, but supplementary questions should be part of the evolution of this. Quite frankly, sometimes Ministers—as we see in press conferences—are talking in repetitive clichés. We need answers. Even if a Minister says, “I don’t know”, or “We are looking at that again, because we are not sure it worked out properly,” that is how we will make progress and be able to assess where there are failings and put the pressure on.

Last month, for example, we had both the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister here. I am pleased to say that I was able to ask both of them, on successive days, about the serious situation of very large numbers of our people stranded in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. I am still concerned about the long delay in getting them back, compared with the work of many other countries, particularly Germany, which has managed to bring back tens of thousands of people. We were able to put some pressure on the system and get some reaction through that direct confrontation. It is not the same as writing a letter or asking questions in a slightly sterile Chamber, although this is an improvement.

Many Members of Parliament are receiving complaints from hospitals and care homes, and from manufacturers and distributors, about personal protective equipment. It is not matching up in the system. How the two sides can be pulled together does not seem to be getting through. Some pressure here would add energy to that system.

Those of us who have been Ministers know that when a Minister has a hard time here in the Chamber—I see nods from those who have been Ministers—when they get to the Department, they say, “Why did you leave me out there in open country? I want some answers and I want them by this afternoon.”

[Sir Charles Walker]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that perhaps the usual order of departmental questions should be changed, so that we could get more chances to ask questions of the Treasury and the Department of Health and Social Care—the two Departments absolutely in the frontline of this crisis?

[John Spellar]

I hope that suggestion may have been taken on board by those who are dealing with these issues. Perhaps for certain Departments there could be an extended period of questions, rather than greater frequency, or there could be a more open system in which written questions could be answered in real time, in order to get a response. We have to be flexible on that, but we have to be able to put our points and get a response.