Proceedings during the Pandemic and Hybrid Scrutiny Proceedings

Karen Bradley Excerpts

Tuesday 21st April 2020 Commons Chamber

[Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con)]

Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I welcome your comments about this being an iterative and evolving process. We would all agree that there is no substitute for Members being in the Chamber and able to hold the Executive to account. Over the last few weeks, during this national emergency, we will all have seen, as constituency MPs, an incredible volume and complexity of casework, the like of which none of us will have ever seen. I know how much easier it would have been at times to have been in this place, not just in the Chamber, questioning Ministers and getting answers on the record, but seeing colleagues in the corridors, meeting them in the Tea Room or outside our offices while making a cup of tea—or whatever it is we are doing. That is the best way that parliamentarians, elected by their constituents to represent them in Westminster, can deliver. The next few days, weeks, and possibly months, will be a substitute for that, but it will in no way compensate for the lack of spontaneity or ability to feed off each other.

[Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab)]

rose—

[Karen Bradley]

Of course, I will give way to my deputy Chair on the Procedure Committee.

[Chris Elmore]

On the right hon. Lady’s point about this being temporary, it is fair to say that in the Procedure’s Committee’s various meetings for several weeks now there has been agreement across the Committee that these measures must be temporary, short term—or any other description we might wish to give it—and that we hope to return to a fully functioning House as soon as the health advice allows.

[Karen Bradley]

I absolutely agree with my deputy Chair. He is completely right. It has been very clear during all the Committee’s meetings, which have all been conducted virtually over the last few weeks, that all Members feel strongly that these measures must be strictly time limited. They reflect the situation the country finds itself in today.

We have developed our procedures and ways of doing business over 700 years, since we were last unable to meet, because of the black death, as the Leader of the House mentioned. The situation is evolving. He is right to say that this procedure is the means to the end, not the end in itself, but those means will enable the way we do business to be efficient and effective and ensure that we can speak up for our constituents and make sure their voices are heard in this place

I want to thank and give credit to everybody who has been involved in getting us to this point. It was no mean feat. At the Committee’s first meeting—the Committee was constituted on 2 March—we said we needed to look at the procedures that might be required to deal with the coronavirus, and when it was first suggested that we may have to block out seats in the Chamber, Members were outraged. “How”, people asked, “could we possibly function if we weren’t able to come into the Chamber, contribute and be part of this?” It is incredible to see the work that has been done in just a few short few weeks, and I agree with the Leader of the House that our teams—the Clerks, our parliamentary staff—expect during recess to have a little free time, to reflect how hard they will have worked during sitting periods. That has not been the case up till now.

I also want to thank you, Mr Speaker, for the pragmatic approach you have taken. As Speaker, you are the custodian of this House and how we operate. To endorse a change to our procedures as radical as that in the motion we will be voting on—I hope it will pass on the voices—took great leadership from you, so thank you.

This will not be perfect; there will be glitches and problems. We have all had our internet go down. I have particular problems whenever a PlayStation is cranked up in the next-door room, which makes hearing what is going on in meetings I am conducting not quite as easy as one would hope. The inability to ask supplementary questions or to come back in—that lack of spontaneity; the ability to come in on a question only if we have been drawn out of a shuffle applied for possibly days before—means we will not be able to represent our constituents in the way we would ideally want. But this is better than nothing and as the Leader of the House rightly said, we must not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. We must understand that there will be glitches and that this will evolve. Over time, we will develop a way of working that gives us the best ability to represent our constituents. However, I repeat that it will never be a substitute for the ability to be here fully, and for being fully part of the democratic process.

I want to make the point to the Leader of the House that scrutiny of the emergency measures is vital. My right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne) made the point that we have not had the chance to scrutinise the measures that the Government introduced. There is a sunset clause, but they need to be scrutinised. I urge the Leader of the House to ensure that they have appropriate scrutiny at the earliest opportunity.

The Procedure Committee in its report that was issued this morning endorses the changes that have been put forward, particularly equality of treatment. It is vital that all Members can represent their constituents equally, whether they can get to the Chamber and choose to be here or not. We want to emphasise the temporary nature of the changes. They must be temporary and time limited.

[Sir Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con)]

rose—

[Karen Bradley]

I will give way to my predecessor.

[Sir Charles Walker]

I thank my right hon. Friend for all her work. I also thank her Committee and its most excellent Clerk—one of the most talented Clerks in the House of Commons.

My right hon. Friend is right in what she said earlier. The best way that I—and, I am sure, she—can represent constituents to the Chancellor, the Financial Secretary and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury is in person. The quicker we are back here in person, being able to talk to the Chancellor and other Cabinet Ministers, the better it will be.

[Karen Bradley]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I know the depth of his knowledge of this subject from his extensive time leading the Procedure Committee. Although I want to give credit to Ministers for their accessibility to us as Members of Parliament through WhatsApp groups, telephone calls or other messages—the amount of contact that Members have been able to have remotely is unprecedented—that is no substitute for being here and able to ask a question in public that constituents can see us asking and hear the answer to, so that they know what the Government intend to do with their questions and concerns.

I am grateful for your comments on points of order, Mr Speaker. My Committee was concerned about whether there would be a way of ensuring that our proceedings were orderly. I am grateful that you are looking at that.

I want to deal with concerns about voting. Yesterday, my Committee approved a report that was issued this morning on the basis that we were not looking at reforms to the way in which this place conducts votes. I well understand that there will need to be changes to the voting procedures for next week to ensure that business is not lost. We must ensure that, in the event of some sort of misunderstanding or something not quite working, the Government do not lose the important business that they wish to bring forward next week. However, I say to the Leader of the House that tabling motions tomorrow on further changes to voting will give rise to concern for my Committee. My Committee has not looked thoroughly at what is proposed for remote voting. Some of us have taken part in the trial run, and we cannot say it was absolutely brilliant. A lot more work needs to be done. I know how hard the teams are working on that—this is no criticism of anybody—but I ask the Leader of the House to consider whether there can be a staged process of tabling motions on remote voting, because he needs to take the House with him. The House is here today to support him, because we want all our colleagues to be part of the debate and to be able to contribute, but he needs to take the House with him on this.

On that basis, the Procedure Committee endorses the motions and urges the House to approve them without the need for a Division.

--- Later in debate ---

[John Spellar]

I thank my hon. Friend, the ranking minority member of the Procedure Committee, for that reassurance.

There are many other issues that will be familiar to colleagues from all parts of the Chamber. They include nursery education, both in terms of providers and parents, and lorry drivers and their ability to get a hot meal on the motorway. Why is the Department for Transport not insisting that franchisees on the motorway open up for lorry drivers to make sure that they are fed when performing the vital service of keeping this country going? We have already talked about the problems of flights, furlough arrangements and companies’ access to support. Those are all issues that have to be resolved here. We therefore need to make sure that, as far as possible, we can replicate the usual arrangements so that Ministers have to be up there answering. I hope that Ministers will be coming to the Chamber to do that, so that we can make progress and improve things.

Finally, the Leader of the House says that he hopes and intends for the measures to be temporary, but in the end, of course, it may suit some for them not to be temporary. We have already had a Scottish National party Member of Parliament saying, “Anyway, why do people have to come down here to one point from all four parts of the country in order to participate in the business of the House?” Many in the civil service and Government would be quite happy if Parliament was less effective in holding them to account. Some Members, I would say, perhaps get the balance wrong between working for their constituents, which is a hugely important and essential part of the job, and running the country and actually asking questions here in Parliament.

[Karen Bradley]

The right hon. Gentleman is making some powerful points. May I also make the point that scrutiny in this place gives Ministers a chance to explain things? It gives them a chance to set out what they are doing. They should not run away from it or be scared of it, because it is their chance to set out the good news and the good work that the Government are doing. We need to have scrutiny here, so that we can have that full explanation from Government Ministers—holding them to account when they do get things wrong, but hearing from them when they get things right.

[John Spellar]

I thank the Chair of the Procedure Committee, and I genuinely congratulate her on the work she is doing already in that position. She is absolutely right, and she reminds me of what Warren Buffett said about financial crises: “When the tide goes out, you can see who has been bathing without trunks.” Reputations get made and lost quickly in crises.

The right hon. Lady is absolutely right. Ministers who are doing a good job, have a robust defence and can even say, “Well, we tried that. We did it on reasonable grounds, but it did not work out. This is what we are doing”, are the ones whose reputations will thrive. For those who try to run away from scrutiny and from decisions, their reputations will sink. However, we also need not necessarily a timetable, but certainly a statement of the necessary conditions for returning to normality.

I recognise and am pleased to see that there is a date in the motion, but that will presumably—it is understandable, and I am not criticising this—also be subject to renewal. We need a clearer idea of the necessary conditions that will enable us to come out of these measures, because otherwise there will always be a tendency for some of the groups I have described to find reasons for just continuing with the status quo, rather than getting this House back to its position at the heart of the debate and political life of this nation.