Enterprise Bill [ Lords ] (Eighth sitting)
Debate between Catherine McKinnell and Anna Soubry(8 years, 9 months ago)
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Catherine McKinnell
Indeed. My hon. Friend makes an important point. [Interruption.] The Minister from a sedentary position keeps repeating the mantra that it is not obligatory. Is that what she is saying?
Catherine McKinnell
The Minister says that it is not compulsory, but she seems to misunderstand completely the nature of market forces and retail competition.
Enterprise Bill [ Lords ] (Sixth sitting)
Debate between Catherine McKinnell and Anna Soubry(8 years, 9 months ago)
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Anna Soubry
It has been a good debate and I will be the first to admit that there have been some good contributions. It is absolutely right that we should go into the matter in detail. It has to be said at the outset that the Government are acting on what was very clear in the manifesto promise upon which we were elected. We said that we would cap the public sector pay-out to end six-figure pay-outs. I am bound to say, as somebody who was self-employed for nearly 20 years, that this is the sort of stuff that simply never came my way at all. That does not mean to say that I do not have any sympathy for people who—and this is the most important point—are made redundant. That means that they had a job and, suddenly, they do not have a job. We have to recognise that we are talking about people who are being made redundant.
To answer the hon. Member for Wakefield directly, people who are made redundant because of ill health are not touched by the cap at all. I hope that we can deal with that claim. We have to set this in some context. In terms of statutory redundancy in the private sector, I am reliably informed that the maximum statutory payment that someone could receive if they earned £25,000 and had worked for some 30 years is £14,250. I am told that the evidence is that the average payment is in the region of £16,000. We have to set what happens in the private sector in sharp focus and contrast that with what happens in the public sector.
We have heard much about modelling, in effect, of what happens when people are on lower pay and find themselves being made redundant. They first thing to say, of course, is that nurses do not get made redundant. On the contrary. It is fair to say that we are rather keen to employ more nurses, not to make nurses—nor, indeed, teachers—redundant. In any event, the Cabinet Office has confirmed that no civil servant earning below £25,000 will be caught by the cap. We are not saying that there are not exceptions. To be truthful—and I always want to be truthful—we cannot actually find an exception. I will go through some examples that I hope will give some assurances to people. We cannot actually find an example—we are not going to say that there are not any but we cannot find one—of somebody who could be earning £25,000 but finds themselves having a payment, on being made redundant, of more than £95,000 and therefore having it capped.
A senior manager at grade 7 in the civil service with a classic pension scheme who leaves aged 55 with 30 years’ service would not be caught by the cap if he or she were earning below £50,000. A prison officer earning £28,000 with 34 years’ experience would be able, even with the cap in place, to retire on a fully unreduced pension aged 52. A tax inspector aged 52, earning £60,000 a year with 25 years’ experience, would have a pension of £17,500 per annum instead of £19,000.
The hon. Member for Livingston was specifically concerned, and many others would be concerned, at the thought of a nurse being made redundant. Frankly, it is difficult to conceive but it might happen. I am trying to imagine what the circumstances could be. No one earning below £47,500 in the NHS will be affected by the cap and the vast majority of nurses earn below that figure. To satisfy the hon. Lady—I know that she specifically raised that point—we said that we would go away and look at it all and that is exactly what we have done.
Catherine McKinnell
I thank the Minister for giving way, and I would very much hope, obviously, that she would be truthful. The information she provides gives some reassurance for today but, given that the £95,000 will not be indexed by the Government, will she explain how longer-term security will be provided? Also, if she is so confident that no one will be affected, why will the Government not accept the £27,000 cut-off that they seemed to promise before the election but are not delivering in the legislation?
Anna Soubry
Let us make it clear that what a Minister said before the manifesto was written does not count as a manifesto commitment. The manifesto is what matters the most, and in it we made it clear that we would place the cap at £95,000. I can go only on the figures—I specifically asked for them. Someone on £25,000 who has worked for 30 years in the private sector will get a maximum of £14,000 and we are talking about people in the public sector who have been working on that same salary for the same length of time having their payment capped because it might exceed £95,000. We really must see the cap in context.
Catherine McKinnell
Will the Minister clarify something? When she talks about someone in the private sector earning a maximum of £14,000—
Catherine McKinnell
Gaining a maximum pay-out of £14,000. Is the Minister talking about a statutory redundancy payment or a private contractually agreed one? If it is the latter, how does she know what all the private contracts provide for?
Anna Soubry
That example shows the profound difference between the private and public sectors. I do not for one moment say that people who work in the public sector do not work hard, but we must take a long, hard, honest look at the terms and conditions of those who are paid for by other taxpayers, to ensure fairness and equality between the sectors.
Catherine McKinnell
I thank the Minister for giving way. She is not comparing like with like by saying that the statutory redundancy payment is all that a private sector employee would get. In the vast majority of cases there would also be a contractual sum that would or could be agreed, and her analysis is, therefore, unfair.
Anna Soubry
I am just putting out the figures on statutory redundancy payments, and setting the context—it is important that we understand the context. That does not mean that there are not lots of people working in public service on low wages—my own brother works on a very modest wage within the NHS. We have to look honestly at those terms and conditions. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for South East Cambridgeshire made an important point. She struggled to think of examples of people on £25,000 who had worked for 30 years and would, in the event of being made redundant, be entitled to more than £95,000. That is all I am saying. That is why such examples are so interesting and, I think, make my point.
I will give some more examples. A librarian, earning £25,000 and with 34 years’ experience, would, even with the cap in place, be able to retire on a fully unreduced pension at the age of 55. A health and safety inspector earning £50,000, with 20 years’ experience, would receive a pension of £12,000 per annum, rather than the £12,500 they would have received before the cap. I think we would all struggle to imagine teachers being made redundant, but a classroom teacher earning £38,000, which is the maximum of the upper pay range, with a normal pension age of 60, would not be caught by the provisions.
We know that the armed forces are exempt. Again, I am grateful to my officials, because I asked why and whether they were put into a special case for good reasons such as the nature of their service. In fact, I am helpfully advised by my officials that, given the higher payments to those in more senior ranks, who can get quite substantial amounts of money for redundancy, we are looking at that situation and ensuring that there is a responsible attitude and pay-out.
Anna Soubry
No, I am going to make some progress, if I may. I did not intervene on any hon. Members, because I want people to be able to develop their arguments.
I will go through the list. Among firefighters there have been few if any formal redundancies. They receive statutory redundancy entitlements and the other staff fall under local government arrangements. People might want to know about the judiciary. Why are judges not covered? Judges cannot actually be made redundant. Magnox workers we will deal with in connection with the next group of amendments.
I was asked a number of other questions, including about academies, which are classified as part of the public sector—I will deal with that one in a moment. On pension top-up, it is often the case that those with the highest salaries will receive the greatest top-up, and we know that there are some examples of that. In answer to the hon. Member for Wakefield, the Green Investment Bank could well be in scope if it remains in the public sector as defined by the Office for National Statistics. If we are successful and the bank is sold into the private sector, it will not be in scope. Another important point is that the £95,000 cap represents only 5% of exits to date. As we might imagine, those primarily affected are the highest paid. That is an important statistic.
Catherine McKinnell
Will the Minister address the point about indexation? I appreciate that she is giving helpful statistics about the number of people affected or likely to be affected today, but it would also be helpful to keep in line with rising prices and wages into the future.
Anna Soubry
That is a good point. I am more than happy to take that one away and give her a response later.
Kevin Brennan
Yes, and that is exactly how bad law gets made, as we know. Therefore, I encourage the Minister to give some further thought to those points if she has not already decided how she will deal with them.
Amendments 111 and 125 would provide protections for whistleblowers—my hon. Friend mentioned this earlier—and remove them from the cap on exit payments. Capping payments could act as a deterrent to whistleblowers. There is concern across the House about the unintended consequences of an exit cap on whistleblowers’ willingness to come forward. Whistleblowers are public-spirited individuals who, when they spot an injustice or malpractice, make it public. We have seen their value not just in the public sector but in the private sector as well, but whistleblowing often leads to a backlash from the authority or business concerned. As a result, many whistleblowers do not continue to work in the same industry, understandably, and they often suffer financially as a result of their brave actions.
It is possible that such workers might think twice about whistleblowing if they are to be further punished financially by the proposed cap. Will the Minister update us on the latest view of the Treasury and her own Department on relaxing the cap for whistleblowers? The Government would do a grave disservice to openness and transparency in the public sector if they did not afford those brave individuals the protection they deserve.
Anna Soubry
I get slightly agitated when it is suggested that we did not think of something. Obviously we have thought about this issue, and we have already discussed with officials precisely those two points about people who have been booted out or unfairly dismissed for whistleblowing or through discriminatory injustice by their employer. As we know, tribunals—unusually, given the powers of the various tribunals—can give an award that is basically unlimited, meaning that in such circumstances, people who have done the right thing by whistleblowing or who have been treated unfairly through discrimination would find themselves unfairly treated by the imposition of a cap. We are absolutely alert to that issue.
Anna Soubry
I do not know why the hon. Lady is saying no. That is exactly the mischief that the amendments seek to cure. We understand exactly what the trap could be. The other thing that we absolutely understand is that only a tribunal can find that somebody has been made redundant or dismissed unlawfully because of their whistleblowing or because of discrimination. In other words, people must go through the whole process of giving evidence, with all the trauma involved, in order to get a finding. The difficulty is ensuring that we know on exactly what basis someone is entitled to a substantial amount of money in damages, in effect, for injustice.
If they have not gone all the way through to a determination by tribunal—everybody is wildly and rightly encouraged not to go all the way through the process but to settle, avoiding all the trauma, costs and loss of time—the problem is then that usually, although it should not be so, they will be subjected to a confidentiality agreement, or to some device that satisfies everybody. They get the money to which they are properly entitled, but nobody says, “Actually, yes, we did sack you because you are a whistleblower.” We are absolutely alert to the possibility that the measures could create problems.
That is why the regulations will deal specifically with such instances. We will issue good guidance to all public authorities so that in instances where there is a settlement—in other words, where an organisation says, “Yes, we accept that we made you redundant because you blew the whistle, and that was the wrong thing to do, but we are not going to go all the way to tribunal; we are going to settle beforehand”—the parties must clearly mark in some way the reason why they are settling, so that the payment can be exempted from the cap.
The hon. Member for Cardiff West and I are both trying to cure the same mischief. The question is how we achieve that. The trouble with the amendments is that they would open the process to abuse because somebody could claim to be a whistleblower without in fact being a whistleblower—they could be a fantasist. Such cases are rare, but it is a dangerous loophole that could be opened up, which is why we must ensure that we have a mechanism so that we know whether a person who is entitled to a large sum of money because they have either blown the whistle or have been discriminated against is not subject to a cap. We aim to do that through regulations.
In the case of a settlement agreement, where there is no finding by a tribunal, the claim might not be genuine for the reasons I have just explained, so appropriate scrutiny is essential before making exit payments over the cap. We will issue guidance to assist relevant authorities in determining when to use their discretion to relax the cap. Obviously, they should relax the cap if they have accepted that somebody has been unfairly dismissed or made redundant because they were a whistleblower. I hope that makes sense.
Catherine McKinnell
As a former employment lawyer, I can not help feeling that the Minister is creating a potential can of worms. Even though the issues may not be successful at tribunal for one side or the other, it is often in the employer’s interest to settle a case simply on cost grounds where the case would cost more to fight than to settle. From what the Minister is saying, it is not clear that the provision will allow for such circumstances and will not significantly complicate the situation for public sector employers across the board.
Anna Soubry
Forgive me, but I thought I had made it absolutely clear that this is about settlement agreements. Obviously we do not want people to go to tribunals; we want people to settle. In the case of a settlement agreement—this is the point—there is not a determination by a tribunal. Conciliated by ACAS or agreed privately, there is no finding by a tribunal, but the claim may not be genuine, so appropriate scrutiny is essential before making exit payments over the cap. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North says that I have not said that, but I have just said it again. Guidance will be in place to assist relevant authorities in determining when to use their discretion to relax the cap, so it will be made absolutely clear. If a public authority employer is of the view that somebody has been unfairly dismissed either because they are a whistleblower or because they have been discriminated against, guidance will make it very clear that they should relax the cap to allow for an extra-large payment to be made.
Catherine McKinnell
To put it politely, the Minister is severely optimistic if she thinks that this is straightforward, because it is not. She will know that a settlement agreement is only entered into when neither party will accept liability. Therefore, it is not as simple as the employer accepting liability for something and entering into an agreement. Would it not make more sense to simply accept the amendment and to exempt all such agreements and arrangements from the cap altogether?
Anna Soubry
Absolutely not—and for the exact reason that the hon. Lady gave: we know that lots of people in settlement agreements will not accept liability. We also know that if we agree to the amendment, we will open the floodgates for people to make spurious claims that they have been made redundant on the grounds that they were a whistleblower. We will then get into a nightmare situation where there is a hearing to determine whether that person’s claim is accurate. Members are not letting me make progress, so that I can further explain this provision, which we have put some thought into.
Ministers of the Crown and Scottish Ministers will have discretion and be able to delegate it in the normal way. Under draft regulations, discretion will also be held by full council for local government bodies and for Welsh Ministers. A blanket exemption from the cap would unfortunately open the door to sweetheart deals designed to avoid the effect of the cap, based on dubious claims.
On amendment 125, there is no need for a regulatory referral scheme for whistleblowing claims. Whistleblowers can already make a disclosure directly to the relevant regulator or other prescribed person. Settlement agreements cannot stop them; the law is clear on that. There is no need to require that whistleblowing claimants have access to legal advice before entering into a settlement agreement. The Employment Rights Act 1996 already makes settlement agreements unenforceable unless the employee has received independent advice, so there is no need to require Ministers to produce guidance on settlement agreements for whistleblowers. In fact, we have already had three guidance documents in 2015 alone.
We have looked at this issue. Although I am not an employment lawyer, I am an old lawyer, so I can see the difficulties, but I am satisfied that the way we craft the regulations and, most importantly, the guidance we give to employers will cure the mischief that we all want to be cured.
Enterprise Bill [ Lords ] (Fourth sitting)
Debate between Catherine McKinnell and Anna Soubry(8 years, 9 months ago)
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Anna Soubry
Of course, as has been identified by the hon. Gentleman, the clause extends and improves the hugely successful primary authority scheme. I pay tribute to the last Labour Government for creating the scheme. Some will say that it is one of the few things that they actually did that was of any benefit to anybody, but that would be cheap.
Anna Soubry
It was a very good idea. I pay particular tribute to those local authorities that are primary authorities. In my experience, they do an outstanding job. Early access to regulatory advice helps businesses to get things right first time. Enforcing authorities can also better target their resources. The clause gives national regulators a role in supporting the provision of advice to businesses. I will say no more than that, because if I did, I would be wasting the time that we hope to devote to Sunday trading.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 19, as amended, accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 3 agreed to.
Clause 20
Public sector apprenticeship targets
Catherine McKinnell
I, too, warmly receive the Minister’s assurance that she will look into the matter. She set out a whole range of very positive developments and activities that the Government are focused on to improve outcomes. I would have thought it would be in the Government’s interest to monitor some of the figures, particularly under clause 70, to show the benefits and trends of the changes and to enable them to assess whether those changes are working or others might be necessary.
Enterprise Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting)
Debate between Catherine McKinnell and Anna Soubry(8 years, 9 months ago)
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Anna Soubry
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir David. I hope that I am right in this, but I would like somebody to check: I note that 50% of the members of this Committee are men, which means that membership is half men and half women. I do not know whether that is a first, but it certainly must be for a business Bill going through this House. It is a welcome development. Too often, in my experience, the highest levels of businesses tend to be dominated by men. I just thought I would say that.
Catherine McKinnell
I very much agree with the point that the Minister has made, but I must say that it is Labour that has upped the ante in terms of female representation on this Committee. As ever, in terms of 50:50, the Government are letting us down.
Anna Soubry
I am not responding to that; the hon. Lady may be right.
I will address my comments to the amendment moved by the hon. Member for Sefton Central. I will rebut much of what has been said by establishing the history of how the small business commissioner came to be placed within the Enterprise Bill. I agree with everything he said about the value to the economy of small businesses. We are absolutely and utterly agreed on that. We understand their huge value and their importance to building a successful economy.
The idea started with the Conservative party manifesto commitment to consider setting up a conciliation service specifically on the point of late payment, which as we all know is a serious matter for concern, notably for small businesses. Having come into office, as I considered how to achieve that, it became obvious that there are already a number of ways to supply such a service. That is the sort of matter that we will undoubtedly debate in this Committee. Having learned of the great workings of the Australian small business commissioner—hon. Members will hear much about the work of Mark Brennan; I have spoken to him at length—I came to the conclusion, and I assure hon. Members that my Secretary of State absolutely agreed, that a small business commissioner should be created specifically to address the problem of late payment.
I put it on the record clearly: it would be utterly bizarre of this Government to want to positively create an office with the apparent intention of abolishing it at some later date. The idea has come from me and the Secretary of State; it is a position that we want. We would love for the position to abolish itself in time, because we would love it if there were no complaints about late payment. Unfortunately, we think that is an ideal that we will not achieve, however much we might strive.
Catherine McKinnell
I agree that the Minister is making a reasonable point, but does she accept that the Government are being cautious in setting up the body, possibly out of fear that it could become more powerful than she anticipates? If it begins to direct any concern towards the Government or state changes that the Government ought to be making to support small businesses, it will run the risk of a conflict of interest with the Government’s direct appointment of the commissioner.
Anna Soubry
It may be a surprise, but I do not agree with the hon. Lady. I can understand why she might raise that concern, but I honestly believe that because of how we are introducing the office—it will be a public appointment just like any other—the sort of proposal made by the hon. Lady through the shadow Minister would not make much difference, if any, to the person appointed. I am going to explain why that is.
Anna Soubry
Hon. Members on both sides need to have confidence in the system that exists, whereby the person we appoint will have all the qualities that we know they must have in order to do the job. That person is going to be the most critical factor in the success of this office. We absolutely know that.
Anna Soubry
I am not going to give way; otherwise, we will be full of interventions.
Anna Soubry
I am sorry, but we need to make some progress. The appointment of the small business commissioner by the Secretary of State will not compromise his or her independence. It will be a public appointment, subject to all the usual public appointments rules and procedures. There would be little material difference to the appointment process if this were a Crown appointment.
Catherine McKinnell
While the Minister is on her feet, will she clarify exactly why this should not be a Crown appointment, rather than a ministerial one? Will she clarify that for the Committee and members of the public, because it is not clear why that is the case?
Anna Soubry
I absolutely will. A Crown appointment is made on the advice of Ministers. Effectively, we get exactly the same process, but with a different stamp on it. This will be a public appointment that will go through the usual procedures. It will be advertised. As for the idea that this is going to be somebody from the cocktail and canapés circuit, forgive me, but those days have long gone. That is certainly not the way that I operate or that my Secretary of State operates. We take considerable care to make sure we get the right person in place. I actually take a little exception to the idea that I go to cocktail and canapé parties to select someone. I personally make a great effort to ensure that we have people who represent the diversity in our society. I am quite robust in my views, as I am rather anti-establishment, and I will bend over backwards to ensure that we get the right person in place. I am confident that when we advertise this job, a large number of people will come forward with exactly the sort of qualities we need.
The amendments made by the Government in the other place have already increased the independence of the commissioner by giving him or her a separate legal identity as a corporation sole. As we know, the commissioner can appoint staff and receive public funding. Those are the key hallmarks of an independent body. Nothing stands to be gained in practice from the suggested amendments, which would only add considerable delay and complication to getting the commissioner up and running. It is normal practice for the Secretary of State to be able to terminate public appointments. The Secretary of State cannot dismiss a commissioner at will, but only if the individual is unable, unwilling or unfit to perform their functions.
It is good that we are having this debate so that we can give people the confidence in what we hope to achieve and in the mechanisms by which we will make the appointment to get what we all want—an independent small business commissioner who will be utterly focused on looking at late payments, free from any form of interference or abuse of office. The commissioner will have an independent spirit but will come from the right background, so that they have the confidence, most importantly, of small businesses to be their champion in solving the problem of late payments.
Bill Esterson
Thank you, Sir David. I apologise for omitting your title earlier. I thank the Minister for her brief response, but I do not think that she has really answered the questions we posed. I am glad that there is broad agreement about the value to the economy of small businesses, and I reiterate that our approach to part 1 of the Bill is about trying to strengthen the post as much as possible so that businesses and the wider economy really can benefit from it. I understand why the post has been set up to look at late payments, rather than at some of the wider issues, as the problem of late payments has existed for more years than many of us will remember. I understand why the Government have gone down that route, although it is a shame that the commissioner has not been set up to draw on some of the successful experiences as well as the remits of the arrangements in America and Australia.
The Minister said that the commissioner would not—I am not sure whether she said “could not”, so I will assume that she said “would not”—be abolished at will. However, the role can be abolished by affirmative resolution of both Houses and, in Parliament, that is pretty close when one party has an overall majority in the Commons. It is unlikely that the Lords would object. I take on board the point that if it were proved that the commissioner was not up to the job, the commissioner would be removed, but there is a difference between that and abolishing the post.
The Minister said that the small business commissioner needs to command the respect of large and small businesses alike. I completely agree but there is a concern among the representative organisations that the lack of independence that comes from being an effective part of the Department will make it difficult for the commissioner to command that respect, particularly the respect of the small business community. Large business is effective at lobbying and has effective relationships with the Government, and that is much harder for individual small businesses and for small businesses collectively.
Anna Soubry
I will give way in a moment. I know that it is difficult for Labour Members—they can dish it out, but they can’t take it. There is real evidence that we are seeing this trickling all the way down. However, as I have conceded—I am being as fair as I hope to be—I am concerned that it is not going all the way down through the supply chain. I have conceded that the name of the mystery shopper service may be a little not brilliant, but what is important is whether it delivers. There is absolute evidence that it does.
I think my noble Friend Baroness Neville-Rolfe would take exception to the rather cheap dig made about her, because she is absolutely on the side of small businesses. I know that she has been involved with a number of small businesses. For the record, she was not on the board of Tesco when it behaved in that unacceptable way. Thank goodness that a Conservative-led Government introduced the Groceries Code Adjudicator to bring Tesco to book—but we are going off the point. She gave a good example from the Ministry of Defence of exactly how the mystery shopper service is working. The more we advertise it, the better.
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Catherine McKinnell and Anna Soubry(8 years, 9 months ago)
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The Minister for Small Business, Industry and Enterprise (Anna Soubry)
I pay tribute to the great work that my hon. Friend is doing to support the workers in his constituency who have been affected by last week’s unfortunate announcement of redundancies at Port Talbot. However, as the Secretary of State has already outlined, we have delivered on four of the five asks by the industry and we continue to work with Tata. When the consultants have finished their work at Port Talbot, Tata will come to us and we will continue our discussions. We will do all we can to ensure that steel continues to be produced not just at Scunthorpe but at Port Talbot.
Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)
T3. The Government have set a target of trebling exports by 2020. Can the Secretary of State explain how delaying a decision on UK airport capacity supports that aim?
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Catherine McKinnell and Anna Soubry(11 years, 7 months ago)
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Anna Soubry
I shall be meeting the relevant Home Office Minister today to discuss that very issue, but let me repeat that, far from being a counterfeiter’s dream, the packets produced in Australia would clearly be a nightmare here. A variety of colours, watermarks and holograms, and all manner of other things, can be attached to them, which is why they are described as “standardised” rather than “plain”.
Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)
20. This decision is taking too long, and those who care about the impact of smoking on children are at a loss to understand why. Given the U-turn on minimum alcohol pricing, the delaying of the sexual health strategy and, now, the stalling on standardised packaging, I must ask whether the Government have simply given up on public health.