Draft Intellectual Property (Copyright and Related Rights) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Catherine McKinnell Excerpts

Monday 11th February 2019 General Committees

[The Chair]

I think the hon. Gentleman has made his point. We have nearly an hour and a half to go. Let us listen to the Minister. If the hon. Gentleman and other Members want to speak later, we can stay here for a long time and really delve deeply into this. So far, we have heard from the Minister that this is minor amending legislation, but let us listen to him.

[Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)]

Further to that point of order, Sir Edward. I obviously do not have the experience of my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield, but I made an effort to read all the papers about these very important regulations that we are being asked to pass or oppose. One thing that alarmed me about them was that they referred to the regulations having an impact on UK businesses, but said that there will be no significant impact on charities, voluntary bodies or the public sector. Clearly, the regulations will have an impact, but I could find no evidence of an impact assessment. Is one available? If so, could it be provided to us during the debate so that we can properly scrutinise this issue?

[The Chair]

That is an interesting point of order, but it is not actually a point of order to do with procedure. It is a point of information for the Minister, who can deal with it now if he wishes, because he has the knowledge.

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[Richard Harrington]

Yes.

I will continue and then, if this is acceptable, Sir Edward, I can pick up other points after I have finished, if hon. Members feel that I have not covered them. The shadow Minister usually feels that I have not done so.

In support of the instrument, we have published three impact assessments, each of which has been green-rated by the independent Regulatory Policy Committee. They correspond to three of the most significant cross-border mechanisms: sui generis database rights, the copyright country of origin principle, and cross-border portability of online content services, which allow EU consumers to access their online streaming or rental services as if they were at home when they visit another member state.

The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee and the European Statutory Instruments Committee commented that the assessments did not provide sufficient detail on the impact of no deal on UK stakeholders. The reasons for that are the same in each case: the impacts on UK consumers, broadcasters and other stakeholders will result from the UK’s being treated as a third country in a no-deal scenario, not from these regulations, which amend the UK’s portion of the cross-border provisions and will primarily affect EU right holders, consumers and broadcasters.

In line with the “Better regulation framework”, the impact assessments consider the effects of the instrument under consideration and not—this is significant—the impacts that arise from other countries’ legislation, which we cannot avoid in a no-deal situation. However, we recognise that those impacts exist and that UK stakeholders will need to be aware of them. That is why in November 2018 the Government published a long-term economic analysis of the impacts of leaving the EU. We have also published technical notices and detailed guidance on what a no-deal Brexit would mean for copyright and related rights. This gives consumers, right holders, businesses and other organisations the information they need in plain English to make informed preparations for all outcomes.

[Catherine McKinnell]

Will the Minister give way on that point?

[Richard Harrington]

If the hon. Lady does not mind, I will not. I will be finished in literally two minutes.

These regulations will provide certainty, clarity and, as far as possible, continuity for UK businesses, right holders and consumers as we leave the EU. I commend the draft regulations to the House.

[Catherine McKinnell]

On that point, will the Minister give way before he finishes?

[The Chair]

Is the Minister giving way?

[Richard Harrington]

Yes.

[Catherine McKinnell]

The Minister rightly says that the information should be available to businesses so that they can prepare for Brexit, whatever the scenario might be. I did not get the exact wording that he used. Are the Government not concerned that, at this stage in proceedings, that luxury will not be available to businesses before the event? How many businesses have the Government consulted on a formal basis in order to arrive at their conclusions on the impact that these changes would have on those businesses?

[Richard Harrington]

I will do my best to answer those questions. I may have misled the hon. Lady on the impact assessment. I thought she was referring just to the charities. We published three full impact assessments in December 2018, but there was no significant impact on charities, which was the point I think she was making.

[Catherine McKinnell]

The point I was making is that the explanatory memorandum says that some changes could have an impact on UK businesses, but I went on to note that it says there will be

“no significant impact on charities”.

I am concerned that it has been acknowledged that there will be an impact on businesses. My point relates to our ability to scrutinise that impact, the accessibility of information and the amount of consultation that has taken place in order to be able properly to assess and scrutinise what the impact will be.

[Richard Harrington]

I now fully understand what the hon. Lady was saying. The Government did not carry out a formal consultation. Given that it was during the negotiations with the European Union on the future trading relationship, it was felt at the time that making everything public would have impaired our ability to do that. However, I can confirm that the Department conducted industry roundtable discussions with individuals from a range of organisations across all sectors. In this sector, that included the Commercial Broadcasters Association, Directors UK, the PRS for Music—the performing rights society—techUK, which represents over 900 technology firms, the Libraries and Archives Copyright Alliance, the British Library, the Publishers Association, the Society of Authors, the Association of Photographers and the Authors Licensing and Collecting Society, among others. In roundtable discussions, the Department talked to and listened to the concerns of stakeholders from right across the affected industries.

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[Richard Harrington]

They were selected because the officials concerned understood them to be the main stakeholders in the field. They are experienced at their jobs. As I have said before, I have found the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy to have a very good system of consultation.

[Catherine McKinnell]

I thank the Minister for giving way. He is being very generous. I am here to scrutinise the legislation. Members of the public, businesses and consumers who will be affected will take a great interest in this process, and they will be concerned that the Government are comfortable to proceed with these legislative changes without any formal consultation. It creates the impression that there is an avoidance of democratic scrutiny, which is typical of much of the Brexit legislation passing through Parliament at the moment and is causing concern.

[Richard Harrington]

I thank the hon. Lady for that contribution. I disagree with her because there has been a fairly thorough informal consultation, although I fully accept that is not the same as a formal consultation. I noticed a look of disdain on the shadow Minister’s face, which his face does not normally give away, but it did in this particular case.

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[Bill Esterson]

rose—

[Catherine McKinnell]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Bill Esterson]

I will.

[Catherine McKinnell]

I am grateful to the Chair for raising that point. Does my hon. Friend share my concern, and the concern of those businesses and consumers potentially affected by these changes, that in not providing the impact assessments for hon. Members to scrutinise as part of this process, the Government are giving the impression that they have something to hide, thereby increasing the level of anxiety about the potential impact of these changes?

[Bill Esterson]

I think my hon. Friend has made an extremely good point, and the Minister and his colleagues have heard what she has said. And I thank you, Sir Edward, for your intervention there as well.

This situation simply is not good enough. I came to this Committee today expecting that all Members would have the information that I have, or that it would be available to them in the room, but it is not here. Of the papers that are emailed around when the Committee of Selection selects the Members for a Committee, the impact assessment is not one of the documents that is usually sent; it is usually waiting here in the room for us. It would usually only be the Front-Bench spokespersons who would get a copy in advance.

[Catherine McKinnell]

As I said directly to the Minister before, I noted the comments about the impact assessments and actually looked for the impact assessments that are relevant to this legislation, but I could not find sufficient impact assessments to clarify for me what the impact of the legislation would be. So it is not even a failure of the Government to make them available today; actually, this process is all very unclear, in terms of what the impact is and how it has been assessed. So, even if the information that is available was provided, I do not think that it would be clear enough.

[Bill Esterson]

I completely agree with that, and there are a number of points here. In previous Committees, we have had a discussion about the fact that impact assessments have not been produced at all on numerous occasions when significant changes have been made, and there has been an issue with the nature of the impact assessments that the Government have chosen to produce.

I will discuss a little later the content of the three impact assessments that have been produced. My hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North is quite right that they do not actually give Members the ability to scrutinise thoroughly what we are being asked to scrutinise.