Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Caroline Johnson and Mary Glindon

Committee stage
Wednesday 1st May 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Mary Glindon]

Q There are still 6.4 million people who smoke. With this Bill, how do we prevent future generations from smoking and become a smoke-free country? What incentive is there in this Bill for persistent smokers to stop smoking now? Are there physical health benefits for long-term smokers to quit that could be an incentive if they have not tipped over the edge and have an incurable disease?

Professor Agrawal: It is never too late—that is what I say to patients who are currently smoking. I see people in their 60s, 70s and 80s, so it is never too late to quit. There are always benefits. Even when people have been diagnosed with lung cancer, we can provide treatment in the form of surgery, radiotherapy and so on, and quitting smoking still helps. I think the Bill sends a clear message that we recognise that there are 6.4 million smokers and we need to support them to quit. Vaping is one means of doing that, and we are not trying to take it away from them if that is the only way they have been able to quit smoking. The Bill contain provisions to help all groups. It is not just about stopping young people taking up smoking; it recognises the need to do something for the people who are still currently smoking.

Tim Mitchell: I would say that there is still an imperative to encourage people who smoke to stop smoking, and vaping can be a mechanism for helping with that. Certainly, as surgeons, when we see people who smoke who require surgery, we encourage them to stop smoking. We know that their risk profile through surgery is improved if they can stop smoking, even just a few weeks before they have surgery. Even if they do not smoke on the day they have their operation, that has some benefits. Encouraging people who smoke to stop smoking remains a very good thing to do, in addition to the provisions in the Bill.

[Dr Johnson]

Q Professor, you talked about choice, and about business and the need to maintain profits by addicting a new generation of people to a nicotine-based product that will be hard for them to quit. That applies to vaping as much as it does to smoking, although one may be more harmful than the other. Could you talk about the effects of vaping on those who have never smoked—particularly things such as e-cigarette or vaping use-associated lung injury, and the effects of nicotine on their lungs?

Professor Agrawal: In the report we have just published, we looked at a range of studies related to safety. Ann McNeill, who will be talking this afternoon, is in a much better position to talk about that work. We measured the range of toxins and the degree of exposure. E-cigarettes expose people who use them for a short time to quit smoking—which is the only thing we advocate them for—to a much narrower band of toxin, and the degree of exposure is lower. In comparison with tobacco, it is much lower, but in comparison with not using either, unsurprisingly the levels of toxins are higher. The RCP is very clear about that: if you do not smoke, do not vape.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Johnson]

Q Do you think the penalties should fall on the person who sold the good, rather than the person who produced and made the illegal product and released it for sale?

Mr Lawson: You would find it very difficult to enforce it if you were trying to take action against a manufacturer in China, where you do not have jurisdiction. I think the only way of addressing this is in the UK, where the stores are purchasing products and then selling them on illegally.

[Mary Glindon]

Q The UK Vaping Industry Association, which represents the vaping sector but not any of the tobacco companies that produce vapes—I note that John Dunne, the CEO, is in the Gallery today —has suggested that the Government should include a vape retailer and distributor licensing scheme in the Bill. The industry has itself developed a comprehensive framework for such a scheme, which it claims is designed to, once and for all, deal effectively with the issue of underage and illicit vaping sales. Would that be a big step forward to cut out illicit vape sales?

Mr Lawson: The evidence I have seen is mainly from Spain, where tobacconists must be registered and licensed before they can sell products. In Spain traditionally, vape products have been sold only through licensed tobacconists. More recently, you can see them in convenience stores. I think we are seeing issues in Europe beyond the UK where products are now being sold illegally. Where they are sold in licensed outlets, you generally see much better compliance with the regulations. Obviously the licence can be removed, so it is a deterrent to the retailer to selling any of the products. That would be a good step in the right direction.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill (Second sitting)

Debate between Caroline Johnson and Mary Glindon

Committee stage
Tuesday 30th April 2024 Public Bill Committees

[Mary Glindon]

I would just like to say that vaping is 95% safer than smoking.

[Dr Johnson]

Q I proposed a ten-minute rule Bill to ban disposable vapes last February, so I am delighted to see that the Government have brought in an statutory instrument to do exactly that. I am disappointed, but not surprised, to hear you say that industry is doing its best to circumnavigate the regulations before they are even brought in.

I have two questions. First, how do we ensure that the regulations are flexible enough for us to be able to stay ahead of such measures? Secondly, could you say a bit about the effect on wildlife? My hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Dr Hudson) has talked about puppies picking these things up in their mouths and the danger they can pose if the puppies bite into them. Could you talk a bit more about the danger that they pose to wildlife when they are thrown away?

Laura Young: Of course. On the regulations, I think that we have to think creatively and innovatively about some of the workarounds that might be being used. We are already seeing charging ports just being popped on the bottom. Of course, that might mean that the battery can be recharged a few extra times, but if it cannot be refilled with the solution, it is still, in practice, a single-use item and will have to be thrown away eventually.

The issue is about ensuring that we look at the builds and make sure that they are modular and that the circular-economy principles that we want to achieve are set in stone. I think that that means working as best as possible with the retailers and the manufacturers—although that will be really difficult—and looking to other initiatives, whether that is single-use plastics bans or treaties on plastic, one of which has just come to an end globally, to see what we can do.

I will tell you a story about the wildlife. A wildlife photographer, a birdwatcher, was taking some images of a marine bird doing a very normal activity, which was picking up a shellfish—what looked like a razorfish—and dropping it from a height to smash it open to get some delicious dinner. But after this young gull had failed multiple times, this photographer realised that, unfortunately, what it was actually picking up and dropping was a disposable vape. We are seeing not only domestic animals, such as cats and dogs and things that we love as pets, getting hold of disposable vapes and potentially breaking them open, but actual wildlife being impacted—picking them up, thinking they are shells on the beach, and trying to eat what is inside them.

That is just from the very short time that we have been paying attention and looking out for this, and from keen birdwatchers capturing it, so we know that there will be extensive wildlife impacts. We are only now scrambling around to try to find more evidence, but we know that it is already happening, and that that is just one example. The photographs are on Twitter, if anyone did want to go and find them. It is sad, but it is definitely the reality of what we are seeing.