Paris Climate Change Conference

Debate between Caroline Flint and Robert Flello

Thursday 19th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Taunton Deane (Rebecca Pow). She stressed the importance of combining the twin goals of tackling climate change and poverty globally, and I could not agree with her more. We must show a way forward that is about hope and optimism, and about making it clear that tackling climate change need not lead to impoverishment. Something that our country and other developed countries can contribute to—and, in a sense, we may be a bit jealous in this regard—is the ability of many countries to leapfrog over where we are to a cleaner and greener future. We can enrich the lives of communities and villages and children who live without light, which affects everything that they do in their daily lives.

If we do not challenge climate change, we will not tackle the potential for conflict in the world. The impact of climate change on our food production and water supplies is a starting point for more conflicts. Those who own the means of food production, and have access to and control of water supplies, can be a force for bad as well as good in the communities around the world in which they live.

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

My right hon. Friend is kicking off what will clearly be a fantastic speech. The present appalling situation in which people are fleeing Syria could occur again, through devastation caused by climate change or, as she says, because people simply want access to drinking water.

[Caroline Flint]

My hon. Friend makes a very important point. Part of the challenge for all of us is the need to demonstrate, through discussions not just in the House but in our communities and with our partners around the world, that events happening thousands of miles away can have a knock-on effect here in way or another. I believe we have already seen in our own country some of the impacts of climate change. I think the public know that. That is why I thought it was important when my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), as leader of the Labour party, when we had those terrible floods here, said that we should look at tackling climate change as a national security issue. That important point was well made then and it has as much relevance today.

Energy Prices

Debate between Caroline Flint and Robert Flello

Wednesday 14th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Caroline Flint]

I agree with my hon. Friend. Every time we have debated the powers of Ofgem, the regulator, we have been told that it has the powers, but is not using them in a practical way to deal with the challenges and problems that consumers face. I believe that, if we make laws in this place, it is essential for us to make laws that make sense and are clear—what is on the tin should be what is in the tin—and to ensure that those laws are enforced.

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

What my right hon. Friend is saying about the energy companies is absolutely right. We need to intervene, as we do in the case of the fuel companies. Notwithstanding what was said by the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon), not only are the fuel companies not passing on price cuts at the pumps, but there is a growing disparity between diesel and petrol costs, which is harming many motorists all over the country, and also harming the haulage sector. Why is that happening? We need an inquiry urgently, and we need a regulator to intervene with the fuel companies as well as the gas and electricity companies.

[Caroline Flint]

My hon. Friend has made an important point. My hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley East (Michael Dugher), the shadow Transport Secretary, has suggested that we should compare what happens in the energy markets that I cover and what happens when it comes to ensuring that our cars and buses can run, along with all other forms of transport that rely on diesel and petrol. At the heart of debates such as this is the issue of how markets work and whether they are competitive enough. I hope we all agree that, in a truly competitive market of any kind, when wholesale costs come down those reductions are passed on to the consumer, but—as others have pointed out—that is clearly not happening now, at least in the markets that I cover.

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[Caroline Flint]

The hon. Gentleman has on a number of occasions stood up for consumers where he has concerns about how the energy sector is working. I say this to him: the energy companies have been asked to inform their customers of the cheapest tariff, which is okay, but the truth is that we have the enormous problem of the inherited legacy post-privatisation of a very sticky customer base. That is demonstrated by the fact that the number of people switching is falling, not increasing.

Let me give the hon. Gentleman an example of another practice that is happening at the moment. It is called white labels, and it is where an energy company—one of the big six—offers through another organisation, maybe a supermarket or another company, a cheaper tariff to people who decide to be customers of that organisation, when it is the energy company providing the staff in the call centres and doing the training behind it, but they do not let their existing customers know what is going on. That is a good example of how they get around the offer they should be making to their existing customers to reflect wholesale cost falls for everyone, not just those whose business they want to acquire.

[Robert Flello]

Is my right hon. Friend as astonished as I am, and I am sure almost all my constituents will be, that the Government are trying to defend the energy companies and not trying to defend the poor consumer?

[Caroline Flint]

I do find that incredible, given that the Chancellor issued a stern warning to the energy companies only last week about their not passing on falls in wholesale cost. I do find it unbelievable that we cannot get a consensus in the House on this issue.

Energy Prices

Debate between Caroline Flint and Robert Flello

Wednesday 11th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Caroline Flint]

I feel that the time has come for us to take stock of our position. The first line of the motion refers to an energy sector that works in the public interest. That does mean that we can still support competition, and I think there should be more competition in the sector. For all types of energy—on-grid and off-grid—it is time that we had another look at what is happening in the market. For me, energy is not like buying a phone or a car; rather, it is essential to life, and therefore a higher order of accountability is required. I will be very happy to look at the issues raised by the Committee. Select Committees are useful for the Opposition as well as the Government. I will be very happy to talk to my hon. Friend and to the hon. Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) and to see what the Select Committee comes up with, but I think the time for standing by has passed.

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

In Blurton in my constituency, there was the fantastic sight of houses having photovoltaic panels erected on their roofs, but the project that E.ON had with Stoke-on-Trent city council covering thousands of houses across the city has now been cut short. E.ON said to me that it understands why the Government were looking at the issues of feed-in tariffs and the cost, but it cannot understand why it was given six weeks to complete projects that were going to take five weeks to bring in.

[Caroline Flint]

It is always very helpful to hear of real examples. We have listened to many smaller businesses in this sector of course, but even the big six energy companies have concerns about the way the Government have gone about changing the rules on solar. Sadly, about 100,000 social homes may not get solar in the future because of these changes. We all agree that the tariff should come down, but, aside from that point, if the Government’s plans go ahead, people will only be able to have solar if their home is a category C residence in terms of efficiency, and therefore about nine out of 10 homes in England will no longer have the option of having solar even under the changed rules and tariff. This is another example of bad management of a project that was clearly popular among the public and that has created jobs—the sector is one of the few that has experienced growth.

In the long run, we know that the most sustainable way for people to cut their bills is for them to use less energy.

“Energy efficiency is a no-brainer because it makes homes warmer and cheaper to run.”

Those are not my words; they are the words of the Secretary of State from back in September, but what has actually happened on his watch? The number of families getting help to insulate their homes or make them more energy efficient has plummeted.

Let us take the month of April as a point of comparison. In April 2010, the month before the general election, more than 15,000 households got insulation measures through Warm Front. In April 2011, just six households got insulation through Warm Front—not 6,000, 600 or even 60, but just six. The Minister of State, the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Gregory Barker), has said that this year he expects 50,000 households to get help with insulation through Warm Front, but so far fewer than 15,000 properties have been helped—not even a third of what the Minister promised. On the current trend, fewer than 20,000 households will get help with insulation this year, a fall of more than 90% on what we delivered in our last year in office.

[Caroline Flint]

Well, I have to say that some of my constituents have had help with things such as boilers, heating and also insulation.

[Robert Flello]

I am deeply troubled by the Minister’s intervention. If he visits my constituency, I will take him to houses that have had loft insulation put in through the Warm Front scheme, and to properties that have had replacement boiler systems fitted, not systems fitted for the first time. That is not the point he made a moment ago, as he will see if he checks Hansard.

[Caroline Flint]

The truth is that the Government are not on the same planet as most of the rest of us.

What the Minister did not answer is why the number of homes being fitted with insulation went down from 15,000 to six within a year. That is the question the Government should answer today. Let us be clear: when Warm Front is finally abolished next year, this will be the first Administration since the 1970s not to have a Government-funded energy efficiency programme in place. That is disgraceful. But, it is okay, because they say, “Don’t worry, we’ve got the green deal.” However, real questions have to be addressed about whether the green deal will be offered on fair terms and will actually deliver real energy bill savings, and whether it will really work for the public.

Let us start with the interest rates. Time and again, Ministers have been asked what sort of finance will be available to households interested in taking up the green deal. Time and again, they have failed to provide a straight answer. The reality is that if the level of interest is too high, given all the other pressures that families face at the moment, they will just not be interested in taking it up. Polling conducted by the Great British Refurb Campaign found that only 7% of home owners would be interested in taking up the green deal if the interest rate was 6% or more. However, we are hearing that the rate could be as high as 8% or 10%, so I ask the Secretary of State again today whether he can assure us that the green deal will be offered on fair terms and at a fair rate to the public.

In the autumn statement, the Chancellor also announced £200 million to provide incentives for the green deal. We still do not know what that money will be spent on or how it will encourage take-up. Most important of all, the fundamental idea behind the green deal—the “golden rule”, as the Government like to call it—is that the savings from better energy efficiency should cover the costs of the green deal. That is the promise being made to the public, but on looking at the small print, it is clear that the golden rule is not so golden after all. There is no guarantee that bills will not be higher after the green deal. If there is no guarantee, there is a real concern about the potential for mis-selling. The danger of what might happen out there is obvious: people will say, “We’re a Government-backed scheme—we promise you this”, but down the road they will not deliver. This measure will not balance out the costs that people are having to pay. In the light of stories about people not saving money or unwittingly inheriting higher energy bills after buying a green deal property, any credibility the scheme had will be shot to pieces.

Energy Prices

Debate between Caroline Flint and Robert Flello

Wednesday 19th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Caroline Flint]

That is why, as we left office, we set in train the opportunity to put in place a more balanced energy generation selection for everyone, and that is why many of those policies are now being carried forward by the present Government.

But let us talk about this winter, this week, as the cold snap hits, and about the prices that families up and down the country are facing. Let us talk about the outcome of that energy stunt. There will be no overhaul of the energy market to break the stranglehold of the big six, there will be no radical simplification of the tariffs available, and there will not even be a pause for thought about whether cutting winter fuel payments for pensioners is the right thing to do, even though the Prime Minister accused Labour of lying when we warned, before the general election, that the Tories would cut them. The only message was: go compare. However, people can only go and compare if they have easy, accurate, transparent information on pricing, which we do not have. The number of tariffs on offer has risen from 180 three years ago to more than 400 today: there were more than 70 new tariffs just this year. That does not help consumer choice; it hinders it.

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

My constituents, when they look at this vast array of different tariffs, step back and think, “Well, what’s the point? These six firms are effectively in cahoots anyway. They are almost operating a cartel.” They think, “Why bother wading through all this treacle and looking at the different tariffs, because we know that we’ll switch to one company and then, two minutes later, it will up its prices too.”

[Caroline Flint]

My hon. Friend makes the point that many of our constituents are making about mis-selling, and the barrage of information that does not allow them to make a clear choice. If there are too many tariffs that are complicated to understand and difficult to compare, people cannot make informed decisions about which deal would be best for them.

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[Caroline Flint]

My hon. Friend brings to the House the expertise of a public health expert, and she makes an excellent point. How people live, and the homes and communities that they live in, are important to their physical well-being. For example, 80-year-old widows will lose £100 this winter that would have helped to heat their homes. And by the way, the Prime Minister had the brass neck to tell the public to check out free insulation, but he forgot to say that the insulation schemes run by the energy companies exist only because Labour legislated to require them to spend £300 million every year on reducing fuel poverty.

[Robert Flello]

My right hon. Friend will recall, as will most Members when the Government take us back to the 1980s, that it was Edwina Currie who said that pensioners had to stay in one room with a flask beside them, knitting themselves scarves and hats to keep warm. We are going back to that same territory, are we not?

[Caroline Flint]

I am afraid that Edwina Currie was in the news again only last week, when she said that she was not aware of anyone who could not afford to eat. People up and down the country are, however, facing the choice between keeping warm and having a hot meal. The sad thing is that many older people often make such sacrifices and keep quiet about them; they suffer on their own. In the voluntary sector, we are also seeing cuts to the services that support those people and help them to get access to their rights and to the deals that they deserve. This is a sorry tale of a sorry Government.

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[Caroline Flint]

We stand up for them. We stand up for them when they are not getting the best deal they can for their energy. We also stand up for them by ensuring that low-income homes are supported through Government schemes, whether that is Warm Front or the winter fuel allowance for older people, but those are being cut by the Government. That is what we do and what we look at. In the long term, we look at how we live our lives and where we live and, with Government leadership and support, we help business to do the right thing to help people not to be behind the curve on energy efficiency and lowering bills. We also look at what happens now, which is why our motion demands that energy companies use some of their profits to help people, particularly the most vulnerable in our communities.

The Government do not understand the reality for families who struggle to pay the bills at the end of the month or the reality for vulnerable people who must make choices about whether to heat their home or have a hot meal. The same applies to families who believe in greening their homes, do their recycling, have low-energy light bulbs and have insulated their homes, yet still find that under the complex, distorted tariffs they pay more for every unit of energy they use—not to mention the businesses trying to keep their head above water because of an austerity programme that is not working for Britain.

[Robert Flello]

On that specific point, families face a double whammy, as not only have their own gas and electricity bills gone up, but the businesses that supply them with food and other services have seen their bills go up.

[Caroline Flint]

Yes, and all this takes place in an environment in which unemployment is going up and growth is going down. This toxic cocktail of Government policies is not only not helping us get to a better place for our economy, but is actually making it far worse.