Overseas Operations (Service Personnel and Veterans) Bill (Fourth sitting)

Carol Monaghan Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee Debate: 4th sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 8th October 2020 Public Bill Committees

[Stuart Anderson]

Okay. So now you have said that, what would your words to him be?

Judge Blackett: I believe in a Bill with some of the items that I have suggested. What I would say is that the Bill should be stopped, rewritten and, when it addresses the problem, brought back. What would I say to those 5,000 veterans? I would explain that the Bill as it stands will make life worse, not better, and therefore we will look at it again, trying to bring something back that would satisfy your concerns.

[Carol Monaghan (Glasgow North West) (SNP)]

Q Judge Blackett, did you support the exclusion of sexual offences from the Bill?

Judge Blackett: No. I cannot see the differentiation between any offences but, since I do not think that there should be a presumption against prosecution anyway, that is just an academic question.

[Carol Monaghan]

Q How do you feel about the inclusion of torture and war crimes?

Judge Blackett: It is the same answer—this is an academic discussion that you and I are having, because I do not believe that there should be a presumption against prosecution at all. If there is an offence, whether sexual, torture or anything else, it should be prosecuted.

[Carol Monaghan]

Q The Minister asked you why advice over the past 15 or 16 years had not been heeded. Are you confident that your advice, and the evidence that you have given to the Committee today, will be heeded?

Judge Blackett: You are asking me what is probably a loaded political question. I would hope so, and when I met the Minister, Johnny Mercer—not in this forum, but in a more discursive one—he was very interested in some of my options, and I think he asked staff to look at them. I do not know how far that has gone, and I do not know whether any will be brought back, but I hope that, given my experience—

[Carol Monaghan]

Q How long ago was that meeting?

Judge Blackett: About a month ago—something like that.

[Carol Monaghan]

Before Second Reading.

Judge Blackett: It was.

[Carol Monaghan]

Q So were you surprised not to see any change, or any of this within the Bill that was presented?

Judge Blackett: To be fair to the Minister, he said to everybody, “I want to fix this problem, and I am open to any suggestion”—

[Carol Monaghan]

We have heard that many times, but we are slightly concerned.

Judge Blackett: I take the Minister at his word—if he says that he is open to any suggestion, he or his staff must look at it on its merits and, if they see any merits, they will take it forward.

[Carol Monaghan]

Q I was going to ask about the re-investigations, but we have already covered that, so I will move on. Do you have any concerns about part 2 of the Bill?

Judge Blackett: The six-year time limit on civil claims.

[Carol Monaghan]

Yes.

Judge Blackett: The previous witness talked about the inability of service personnel to sue, because of the six years. It is rather like going back to section 10 of the Crown Proceedings Act 1947. That is not really my area of law, so perhaps I am not the right witness to deal with it. I said to the Secretary of State that I thought it was injudicious, but there are better minds than mine who can apply that.

One bizarre thing is that, if this Bill becomes law, there is a six-year time limit but the Attorney General may give consent to a prosecution. Then, clearly, one of the things that the criminal court would be doing is awarding compensation, if there was a conviction. There would still be issues in relation to personal injury claims, which would come through the criminal court rather than the civil court, if it got to prosecution. However, I do not think I am the right person to answer those questions.

[Mr Jones]

Q In your letter to the Secretary of State you said:

“The bill as drafted is not the answer.”

You have been very clear on that today. You have made four suggestions there. I can see a problem with the legal aid one, but the other three relate to procedure for criminal trials in the service justice system. Could they be incorporated into the Bill?

Judge Blackett: Yes. If you need legislation, you can use any legislative vehicle, can you not? Certainly, I would have thought that applying the Magistrates’ Court Act 1980 one, which is applying a six-month time limit to summary-only matters, would be extended. It would need more wording because I believe that should be extended to what should be called de minimis. De minimis claims probably need to be taken before the judge who is overseeing it so he can say, “This is de minimis.” Then, a great raft of those allegations in IHAT and Northmoor would have gone with that.